Maximum Reconstruction

[Diamond]

Many people have argued that, all things considered, the former Confederate States got off incredibly light.

What do you think it would take to have the North REALLY stick it to the South? I'm talking execution of Confederate leaders, draconian military occupation lasting into the 20th century, a 'police state' mentality, imprisonment and execution of civilians, massive confiscations of property, a MUCH more federalized government, anything else you care to name.

I should say that my ultimate goal here is to arrive at a (sort of) United States that, in the 1920s, is ripe for a communist revolution. Do you think a harsher Reconstruction could eventually sow the seeds for this?

 

[GBW]

Perhaps, but it definitely wouldn't be a Marxist sort of Communism. If it were to happen, it would have to be a sort of Religious Socialist party with likely slight Nazi-ish overtones that would either want to oppress the blacks again or look for revenge if the Federals have decided to place them in positions of power following this harsher Reconstruction. That could be either reenslavement, unlikely if it's Socialist, violent reprisals but not genocide, more likely, or deportation to the North. This is the only sort of 'Communist' movement that I can see getting any probability of mass support in this alternate South.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Well you could read Turtledove's short story "Must and Shall" about a vengeful North over the death of Lincoln. Not too realistic but an interesting read.

 

[Diamond]

This is the only sort of 'Communist' movement that I can see getting any probability of mass support in this alternate South.

I mean a nationwide revolution, not just a renewed Civil War; a complete dissatisfaction with the US gov't leading to popular revolt, north & south. That's not to say that the revolution wouldn't begin in the south; it most likely would.

I agree that it would not be 'our' communism; I'm working on a variant that incorporates some uniquely home-grown ideas. My thinking was that during Reconstruction, ALL traces of the southern 'nobility' - plantation owners, etc. are scourged. What is left is an impoverished lower class. Outnumbered by blacks (who the Federal gov't gives social and economic advantage to - to keep them out of the North...)they stew in resentment for decades. While they may not feel especially saddened over the loss of the Southern elite, those elite DO make convenient marytrs, don't they?

In the northern states, several vastly wealthy individuals and families have arisen, taking advantage of the chaos in the south to make their fortunes. The age of the JP Morgans & Rockefellers begins a few decades early, giving these wealthy few time to get seriously entrenched in the federal government and economic structure. When the union movements come along, they are put down even more brutally than in OTL. The working class of the north begin to find common cause with their southern brothers against the government...

Workable?

 

[Beck Reilly]

What do you think it would take to have the North REALLY stick it to the South?...I should say that my ultimate goal here is to arrive at a (sort of) United States that, in the 1920s, is ripe for a communist revolution. Do you think a harsher Reconstruction could eventually sow the seeds for this?

A) The government would only "stick it to the South" in that manner if it was headed by a nut. If they did any of what you propose the nation would never heal. The Civil War would have permanantly devastated the entire country. We would never be a great power.

B) It would sow the seeds for another regional conflict, but not a communist revolution. Communist revolutions are the direct result of the oppression of the working class, not the oppression of a particular region.

 

[Diamond]

A) The government would only "stick it to the South" in that manner if it was headed by a nut. If they did any of what you propose the nation would never heal. The Civil War would have permanantly devastated the entire country. We would never be a great power.

-R.E. headed by a nut: yes, true. Do you believe it's possible that one man (or a group of men) with this mindset could attain and hold power long enough to perpetuate this kind of atmosphere?
-R.E. nation never healing: yes... that's, uh... kind of what I was going for LOL
-R.E. never being a great power: depends on what you mean by 'great power' We'd certainly never be the superpower of OTL, but even a nation with serious internal problems can exert influence on the rest of the planet.

B) It would sow the seeds for another regional conflict, but not a communist revolution. Communist revolutions are the direct result of the oppression of the working class, not the oppression of a particular region.

See my previous post.

 

[GBW]

I suppose it's within the realm of possibility, but it will probably require a 'Great Man', an American Lenin to create an American Communism. I can't think of anybody from OTL offhand, you'd probably need someone who doesn't exist in OTL to be butterflied into existence.

As for how this would happen in the first place, Turtledove's 'Must and Shall' that David mentioned had Lincoln getting killed during a Confederate siege of Washington and Hannibal Hamlin ends up becoming President and initiating largely what you have. The story takes place during the ATL's WW2 in New Orleans.

As for how the 'Revolution' could hit the entirety of the United States... perhaps a large growth of the Religious Socialist movement in the South... a lot of widely reported massacres of the Socialists, perhaps during a time during some particularly bloody suppression of union strikers... then maybe the Religious Socialists and union organizations could form a popular front, coordinate mass protests across the US including the South and when there are bloody suppressions again, the popular front strikes back and coordinates their actions with one another. Whether the general public will join in will depend partly on how the Great War turned out politically and militarily.

 

[robertp6165]

A) The government would only "stick it to the South" in that manner if it was headed by a nut. If they did any of what you propose the nation would never heal. The Civil War would have permanantly devastated the entire country. We would never be a great power.

No, not necessarily. Just put a extreme Radical Republican...say someone like Thaddeus Stevens...instead of Andrew Johnson in the Vice Presidential slot in the 1864 election. In OTL the extreme Radical Republicans wanted to impose a very harsh Reconstruction on the South, which they were prevented from doing primarily by Andrew Johnson (the primary reason they tried to impeach him). So when Lincoln is assasinated in April 1865, the extreme Radical Republicans have complete control with nothing to moderate them.

 

[Beck Reilly]

...say someone like Thaddeus Stevens...

Just as I said, the government would have to be headed by a nut...

 

[Beck Reilly]

-R.E. headed by a nut: yes, true. Do you believe it's possible that one man (or a group of men) with this mindset could attain and hold power long enough to perpetuate this kind of atmosphere?

No, I don't. That's the problem that I have with Must and Shall. The extremists of the Republican Party would have to hold power for a long time. It's impossible. You'd eventually get a Democrat or a moderate Republican (like Grant) who would restore the civil rights of the Southern people.

The only way to avoid this would be to have the South commit horrible atrocities. Unfortunately, this would require that the personalities of several million people change dramatically...

 

[Derek Jackson]

It depends on what one means by harsh and what one means by "the south". In OTL former slaves were effectively abandoned by the 1870s.

The trick would have been to destroy the planter class by confiscating their lands and for the North to have blamed that class for the war.

 

[Grey Wolf]

There was a school of thought that said that the ex-rebel states should be dissolved and reconstituted as new states, wiping out the evil

Grey Wolf

 

[Dave Howery]

It may be argued that the south got off 'lightly', but any harsher measures would have rebounded on the north and only led to a rebellious southern population that never integrated back into the union. In the end, Lincoln had the right way of it: return everyone to their homes, take oaths of allegiance from the CSA leadership, and get on with the country's business. The US was lucky in that a lot of the hostilities faded as veterans from both sides moved to settle the western states, and soon after, the US began to shape up as a global power; by the time the generation who had fought in the war had died out, the country was truly united.
That said, the plans for blacks postwar were awful, and allowed them to be preyed on by vengeful whites. While I feel that the US was wise not to bear down harshly on the south, there certainly should have been a better plan in place for dealing with the ex-slaves....

 

[NapoleonXIV]

It may be argued that the south got off 'lightly', but any harsher measures would have rebounded on the north and only led to a rebellious southern population that never integrated back into the union. In the end, Lincoln had the right way of it: return everyone to their homes, take oaths of allegiance from the CSA leadership, and get on with the country's business. The US was lucky in that a lot of the hostilities faded as veterans from both sides moved to settle the western states, and soon after, the US began to shape up as a global power; by the time the generation who had fought in the war had died out, the country was truly united.
That said, the plans for blacks postwar were awful, and allowed them to be preyed on by vengeful whites. While I feel that the US was wise not to bear down harshly on the south, there certainly should have been a better plan in place for dealing with the ex-slaves....

Which is pretty much exactly what Thaddeus Stevens and the "Radical Reconstructionists" were proposing. Most of the main "atrocities" that Southrons bemoaned so consisted of giving blacks both the right to vote and the right to hold office. Immediately after the war they did so in large numbers and were proceeding very well until the KKK and others unseated them by violence.

What is the role of the "privileged" blacks in this dystopia you propose? In OTL its hard to propose a regime that was more oppressive than what existed as far as they were concerned.

 

[trendel13]

Ok I shall try this again after the server ate it last time.


Let’s say in the late 1860s the price of cotton sky rockets even with increased Mechanization the demand for cotton out strips the supply.(I have no idea how this would happen though since most of the main consumers i.e France and England have enjoyed bumper cotton crops) This then forces a labor shortage in the south. This makes a great investment opportunity for northern entrepreneurs. Who then begin to invest heavily in the south and start buying southern plantations to grow their crops. The former southern plantation owners are used to grow the crops and manage the plantations. The great migrations out of the south are halted thanks to a small period of martial law declared by the democratic administration after Johnson. The administration takes a tremendous amount of bribes when it comes to reconstruction. The northern business leaders are nearly free to put in place their “reforms†to the south. The former slaves are then thru a series of misfortunate acts by the business concerns put back into the cotton growing process. The wages are near nonexistent and working conditions nearly deadly. The company stores of the factories own nearly everyone. The demand for cotton has also caused the prices of land to jump forcing many small farmers out and into the west. Those whites that do stay can hardly make a living due to the price for food and other supplies. With a large share of the transportation capacity being used for cotton and importation of supplies for the factory forcing prices up. Into the fold walks a version of Carnegie who streamlines the process (and also is a northerner) and cost per pound of cotton plummets. The cotton trust begins to form with the northerners getting rich of transporting the cotton and also getting rich off producing it. The average northerner starts to become alarmed as some industry begins to move south to take advantage of the now labor surplus thanks to breakthroughs in cotton manufacture. General strikes start to happen more frequently. The trusts use their powers to enforce workers to go back to their jobs.

Now you have a country ripe for a communist takeover if not in the 20s possibly earlier.

Blacks who or more likely very pissed about their lots in life.
Small Southerner farmers who are struggling to feed their families.
White factory workers who see their wages continually plummet thanks to abundant southern labor.
Also the former plantation owners see their powers fading as more northerners come into the fold.


And probably a even richer 1% of the wealthiest people in the country eager to exploit their advantage.

Ok how is that?
Good?
Bad?
Insane?

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Those servers are voracious today.

Its certainly an interesting scenario if you have the revolution. The problem is its basically just OTL and we didn't have a revolution in the 20's.The only real difference I see between your dystopia and OTL is the former plantation owners seeing their influence dwindle. In OTL the remnants of the plantation class were actually seeing a revival in their farms in the 20's, due mainly to the efforts of George Washington Carver, (how's that for irony.)
The closest we came to what you propose is the Populist movement of the 1890's. Ironically again, this was partially disarmed by turning the poor whites against the poor blacks in the South (most of your more onerous Jim Crow legislation comes from this period, not Reconstruction).

And the mention of Carver brings up another difficulty. Cotton exhausts the soil, that's why the plantations kept expanding South then West. True, good soil management can prevent or reverse this but good soil management and forced monoculture for social engineering purposes (which is what your scenario implies) don't often go together.

I'm not saying you can't make it happen with some adroit writing, never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Seems to work for Turtledove

 

[David S Poepoe]

While I haven't yet watched the History Channel's two hour presentation on the Lincoln Assassination, I'll propose a possible POD for a radical republican government. The Radical Republicans figure that Lincoln will go soft on the South. They, with Stanton at the head, also talk with Johnson and Seward and discover that both will support Lincoln's decisions. They plan a coup to seize power. Lincoln is assassinated at Ford's Theater and Johnson and Seward are both done in as well (Stanton has arranged everything with Booth and the other assassins). The way is paved that within hours of Lincoln's assassination Stanton seizes power and places Washington under marshal law. Booth and his compatriots are killed so they don't spill the beans and anyone who may pose a possible problem for the Radical Republicans are arrested and temporarily imprisoned.