Maximum numbers of Christian Indians

With British, French, Dutch, Portuguese and Danish colonies in India, how much would or could they convert by supporting missionaries? No forced conversion but protecting and financing missionaries in their stay in India? Period is from 1500 to 1945.

Aaaaand go.
 
Not trying to be difficult here but the Europeans tried. Christian missionaries still try to this day but to no avail. South Asia was under Muslim rule for more than a millennium yet majority of it is Hindu. It's very difficult to convert India to anything but Hindu (even Buddhism failed). Africa was and is much easier, and I suspect its because to them conversion does not feel like a loss in their local African identity.


Not trying to call this idea ASB (far from it. It's an interesting conversation with real implications), but I don't see the numbers being much more than they are now. Hinduism is dominant in India.
 
Wouldn't this be much easier to accomplish with a much earlier POD - say, pre-Islam?

Unlikely. The only way is to have Christian rule over the whole continent for more than a millennium and than I still see only around 50% of the population converting. But maybe most of the lower castes would. And then again, it would depend on the region. A South Asia though with 50% Christianity 50% Hindu would be interesting.
 
Does the long-established St Thomas (The Apostle) Christian church in Kerala count, or does it have to be conversions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians

800px-SaintThomasChristian%27sDivisionsHistoryFinal.png
 

Md139115

Banned
Just have the Thomas Christians do much better than OTL to the point when one of the major rulers decides to pull a Constantine.

You could see a Christian India two or three centuries before Muhammad. Heck, they might even beat the Romans in adopting it as a faith!
 
Just have the Thomas Christians do much better than OTL to the point when one of the major rulers decides to pull a Constantine.

You could see a Christian India two or three centuries before Muhammad. Heck, they might even beat the Romans in adopting it as a faith!


Again, I do not see a “Christian” India. North India was under a millennium of Muslim rule, yet they are majority Hindu. You cannot take the Hindu out of India. That is their identity, their nation. Try replacing English with another language as America’s primary language. Essentially impossible. Yes there are minorities but they are under 20%. India was the only region ruled by Muslims for so long besides the Balkans to not have majority of the population convert. There may be regions of India where this works (South India) but a Christian dominated India is ASB in my opinion. History has proven that conversion in India has not been the most successful for any outside faith.
 
I think it requires an assertive Christian State, one that is strong enough locally that a Hindu rebellion can be defeated - as that is the killing blow that every Indian conqueror was scared of.

Lets try a PoD where the Roman Empire embraces St.Thomas Christians, my personal choice is a "Edict of Tolerance" - essentially, Christians are all fellow Christians, if their Patriarch is recognised by the Emperor in Constantinople. So you could have Arians in Egypt, Donatists in Africa, etc, Nestorians in Mesopotamia, and St.Thomas Christians in India.

The advantage of this is that the Egyptian and Indian Christians are likely to prioritise trading with one another, or are outright encouraged to (perhaps even subsidised by a very 'pious' Emperor.

The southern coast is a perfect place to incubate a strong Christian Tradition, perhaps with the trading Chola - a small Christian State can slowly expand and make the coasts of S.India majority Christian - which then means that they can be VERY assertive when they expand, unlike larger Empires. Another Empire can replace it if/when it collapses locally, but if they are from the region, chances are they are also Christian, which allows it to further expand - perhaps into the Deccan Plateau - rinse, repeat, perhaps you have two Empires, one on the Plateau, and one on the coasts. After that point however, you're biggest target is the Ganges Valley - the Indus would be nice, and a Christian Empire than can assert control over the coast and forcibly convert it (yeah, it probably won't be clean), can start the process there. The Ganges however is a bigger deal - there are so many people there, that you can't just easily convert them. You'd have to found new cities, and import Christians wholesale, give them the best jobs, found hundreds of monasteries along the Ganges to give them a large presence. It'd be an expensive process - and only really useful is the faith is a major pillar of the state.

But the key is a strong relationship between the premier (at the time) Christian State in the Romans, and a ascendant Indian State - probably involving trade preferences - perhaps Christian traders get lower docking fees in the Roman Empire, and are given preferential rates - but harbourmasters know to ask for a symbol of some kind from a St.Thomas bishop. It would allow those traders to be an absolute mint for any state that embraced them, as they'd be the ones making the most money from the Romans, which helps them strengthen their state.

Heck, I may be understating the ability of free missionaries after there is a solidly Christian region - if you have a solidly Christian south, it could be funding missionaries on a scale not seen in India, at any point.

So yeah, my dual PoD is a system of Patriarchates in the Roman Empire, that allow equal but different practices of the Christian faith, but equal under the law (but still preferential to pagans), and through that the acceptance and support of Extra-Roman Churches.
 
Mestizaje. Usually the offspring when an English soldier married an indian women the offspring became christian and to this day anglo-indians are christian. How to make this happen? Remove all settler colonies from the UK(Canada,the US,Australia,New Zeland and South Africa) and make the British excess population go to India as early as the XVI.
Maybe the UK is a bad choice as they usually look down on this practice.
So if you wish make make Portugal circumnavigate in stead of going to India,so they focus on America and let Castile find the alternative route to India and focus exclusively on the subcontinent as soon as possible,as the Spanish encouraged intermixing to achieve a higher integration. If this practice goes for 4 centuris the mestizo population of India could very well be around 600M as of right now (including mestizo+indian as being mestizos).
 
Mestizaje. Usually the offspring when an English soldier married an indian women the offspring became christian and to this day anglo-indians are christian. How to make this happen? Remove all settler colonies from the UK(Canada,the US,Australia,New Zeland and South Africa) and make the British excess population go to India as early as the XVI.
Maybe the UK is a bad choice as they usually look down on this practice.
So if you wish make make Portugal circumnavigate in stead of going to India,so they focus on America and let Castile find the alternative route to India and focus exclusively on the subcontinent as soon as possible,as the Spanish encouraged intermixing to achieve a higher integration. If this practice goes for 4 centuris the mestizo population of India could very well be around 600M as of right now (including mestizo+indian as being mestizos).

I had a fun idea of a slightly rogue marriage becoming a political landmark.

So you have a Mughal Princess marry a 3rd heir to the British Crown, completely rogue love match, but the son doesn't get disowned, nor the daughter.

Due to circumstance (Cricket balls/falling off horses/assassins/plague/insertMechanismForDeathHere), 3rd heir becomes THE Heir, with the Mughal Princess his future Queen - assuming she converts, then it may not be popular with some, but it could very well go down well.

Suddenly, you have the Royal family as Anglo-Indians. Both British and Mughal Emperors. (or at least claimants on the latter, and may go all out to assert that claim more than likely.)

That is a power couple everyone in the Empire can look to, and their children can run with that - but considering the effect the Royals could have on fashionable choices, that can certainly lessen the taboo - as if you critique them you have "If it is good enough for Prince Harry, it is good enough for me you [pejorative]".

It can lead to a lot of other changes, like the adoption of Jodhpuri in fashion, potentially as military dress uniform for Indian regiments.

Plus, look at the incentives for that monarchy - supporting both the Indian and British communities - Prince Henry's Deccanese Volunteers. Potentially the Royal Family has more Prince of Deccan-Mysore as heir apparent than Princes of Wales, alternating every generation - or even child.

But the level of the thinkable that happens with that Royal Dynasty becomes especially interesting.
 
I had a fun idea of a slightly rogue marriage becoming a political landmark.

So you have a Mughal Princess marry a 3rd heir to the British Crown, completely rogue love match, but the son doesn't get disowned, nor the daughter.

Due to circumstance (Cricket balls/falling off horses/assassins/plague/insertMechanismForDeathHere), 3rd heir becomes THE Heir, with the Mughal Princess his future Queen - assuming she converts, then it may not be popular with some, but it could very well go down well.

Suddenly, you have the Royal family as Anglo-Indians. Both British and Mughal Emperors. (or at least claimants on the latter, and may go all out to assert that claim more than likely.)

That is a power couple everyone in the Empire can look to, and their children can run with that - but considering the effect the Royals could have on fashionable choices, that can certainly lessen the taboo - as if you critique them you have "If it is good enough for Prince Harry, it is good enough for me you [pejorative]".

It can lead to a lot of other changes, like the adoption of Jodhpuri in fashion, potentially as military dress uniform for Indian regiments.

Plus, look at the incentives for that monarchy - supporting both the Indian and British communities - Prince Henry's Deccanese Volunteers. Potentially the Royal Family has more Prince of Deccan-Mysore as heir apparent than Princes of Wales, alternating every generation - or even child.

But the level of the thinkable that happens with that Royal Dynasty becomes especially interesting.
Has there being any British infant that has lived in India?
 
As others have pointed this out, they did try. They could have seen more success from the governments by forcing this, but the issue with this is making an enemy of the local population. Forcing conversions of faith doesn't really offer any positives that beat the massive amount of cons that will come from it. What the Europeans wanted in India was a population of natives that would continue to produce goods and resources that could be taken to the European markets and sold at a favorable rate. Primary interest to at least the British throughout most of their Empires history was Economical.

I don't think butterflying Islam would do it, because Zoroastrianism was also in a good spot to be picked up. It's the time limit that makes this difficult. By the end of the medieval age the power of the pope was gone and over time the power of the church would decline from there.

To me the pods you'd need for a more militant Christianity among European nations are the following:

- A longer crusader period with more back and forth. Maybe the first Crusade works, but the second backfires so badly we see Rome and parts of southern France lost. Something along these lines that turns the whole of Christian Europe fanatical in the defense of Christianity.

- Butterfly Christopher Columbus. Not so much a requirement, but as the living standard in Europe and education improves, the less likely people are going to rely on their faith as much.

- The Reformation period. There was an opportunity here to bring power back to the Pope again.
 
Maybe I asked it wrong: what would be the highest percentage of Christian Indians be?

I was thinking about 10% but I am not really sure. It looks too high if you compare with the population existing already.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
With British, French, Dutch, Portuguese and Danish colonies in India, how much would or could they convert by supporting missionaries? No forced conversion but protecting and financing missionaries in their stay in India? Period is from 1500 to 1945.
Take a leaf from Moslem book.
- Christians pay lower tax and/or non-Christians pay special tax
- upon division of inheritance the Christian heir(s) gets a bigger share/ the whole lot (eldest-takes-all is a foreign concept in most jurisdictions)
When racism kicks in/becomes stronger in XIXth century - being Christian makes you white/ a separate category of higher status than non-Christian "natives".
 
I think there's another way.

There was a fairly important Christian community that was perfectly integrated in the high levels of society and socially assimilated to high castes.
They had the same status and the same practices, which does raise the question of the religious aspect of the Caste system vs the social aspect.

There were some decent initial contacts when the Portuguese arrived but Dominicans missionaries tried to equate Western social practices with Christian practices and equated the Indian social practices with hinduism.
As such, they were quite forceful, for example forcing every Indian christian who wanted to convert to eat beef.
If you get an earlier Matteo Ricci type, or even a Japanese-era Francis Xavier to head the whole Christian mission, you could get better intermingling and better adaptation of Christian practices to adapt to the local social customs.
That way you can tie christianity to the Portuguese power and to the doctrine, both without sacrificing any fundamental aspect of local identity.

For the relationship to power, you can see what happened with the Paravas who converted to become a part of the Portuguese trade network and get their protection against muslim merchant in the pearl coasts networks
 
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