Maximum number of possible Germanies?
- Thread starter Zyzzyva
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I Blame Communism
Banned
Before Susano arrives and everything goes to hell...
A useful starting point, it seems to me, would be 1866-71, which gives you the NGF, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Bavaria, Wuertemmburg, Baden, and just about Hesse-Darmstatdt. This leads on to no Franco-German war, or one won by France.
A useful starting point, it seems to me, would be 1866-71, which gives you the NGF, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Bavaria, Wuertemmburg, Baden, and just about Hesse-Darmstatdt. This leads on to no Franco-German war, or one won by France.
While I disagree that Switzerland and Luxembourg are "Germanies", you could always do the "FDR partition of Germany succeeds" thing, then you'd get modern Germany divided into six nations, and two international zones. Add in the Soviets making their occupation zone into a GDR-like thing and you can put it up to seven, plus Austria. You can make it nine by making an East Austrian state from a Soviet occupation zone (heh. East East-land. Funny that. 
) Now, if you can somehow make an Allied independent Sudetenland (however you'd go about doing that) you can make it ten.
Good enough?
EDIT: Forgot Lichtenstein. Make that eleven German states.
) Now, if you can somehow make an Allied independent Sudetenland (however you'd go about doing that) you can make it ten.Good enough?
EDIT: Forgot Lichtenstein. Make that eleven German states.
Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg I don`t mind, as they didn`t create militaristic (later homicidal dictatorships). XVIth century PoD might be good - Sigismund the Old annexes Teutonic Order instead of creating Prussia. Thus we`ll end with Austria having several equal rivals to unite Germany in XVIIIth-XIXth centuries.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Well, Austria did, what with how the Nazi leader called it his dear old home and it was a strong base of support for the regime...
Sorry, I hate this idea of Good Little Austrians. It's a unique distortion in being anti-German (denying Austria's pre-'45 Germanness) and yet also flagrantly offensive to the victims of Nazism. Austrians can't tell Yugoslavs, Poles, and Russians with a straight face that they were "occupied", as wikipedia claims. They were agents of the vile, genocidal Nazi occupation of other countries.
And the whole idea of We'd Be Better Off Without Germany is one I'm really uncomfortable with. The Tasmanians would be so much better off without Britain. And? I still live my country and hate what it's done. I would not take kindly to people saying "One Britain is perhaps more than enough!" or "Ireland I don't mind, they never exterminated other people in landgrabs..."
But there's nothing of any enormous value to anyone in East Prussia. It was a name that got attached to Brandenburg, and Brandenburg isn't so very fertile and crowded either, but it happened to have an utterly ludicrous streak of good fortune lasting pretty much throughout its existence as an indepenant state.
Remove the dunes of Prussia from the equation, and... what? Why should it by any less likely for one country to have a streak of luck and create a north German centre of power (you'd think the Saxons would have been better suited for that)? If north Germany lacks a strong power, shouldn't this make Greater Germany more likely to end up united?
Remove the dunes of Prussia from the equation, and... what? Why should it by any less likely for one country to have a streak of luck and create a north German centre of power (you'd think the Saxons would have been better suited for that)? If north Germany lacks a strong power, shouldn't this make Greater Germany more likely to end up united?
You find this surprising? Germanophobia is very widespread on this site.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Not nearly so much as it is in circles less aware of historical nuances, or so much as it was. Really, the effort not to be Germanophobe had at one stage (when Hurgan was so busy at to be posting in the same thread under differant identities) got to the point of ridiculing perfectly valid Polish claims and making some extremely ugly, biased remarks about Poland. Not to mention our consistent assumption that France will never amount to anything.
For us, this is pretty unusual and pretty strident.
Susano
Banned
Well, yeah, I even agree with hat. Took a comment by prem_rack to hit my head about it, but yeah. (I left out your comment about France because I think its not as bad on this board here) Well, its Kiat, he never is any nuanced.
Well, the easiest PoD for Kiats scenario of course the 9th and 10th century. Its pretty easy for the East Frankish realm to fail, and then you indeed dont have any Germany, as none of the successor states would identify with it (as opposed to at least one IOTL, that being the FRG). But Id say, barring further seperations, that would realistically only get you 4 states, so thats even less than the count of today. I think that generally shows a trend: If you cut right through Germany, its an unstable situation. If you nipple off the fringes, though... So, maybe an independant Prussia (which will stress how the Teutonic Order after all never was part of the HRE), an independant Silesia (stressing how it also has slavic roots), an independant Lorraine (stressing French influences)... they all could much easier construct an own identity than Austria, anyways
While I disagree that Switzerland and Luxembourg are "Germanies", you could always do the "FDR partition of Germany succeeds" thing, then you'd get modern Germany divided into six nations, and two international zones. Add in the Soviets making their occupation zone into a GDR-like thing and you can put it up to seven, plus Austria. You can make it nine by making an East Austrian state from a Soviet occupation zone (heh. East East-land. Funny that.
Good enough?
EDIT: Forgot Lichtenstein. Make that eleven German states.
I think this is quite good. In such a scenario there would be a major effort to reunite, at the very least, the different states of OTL Germany. But if this were a TL you could probably work in some material on the governments and bureaucracies digging their heels, and delaying any outright unification. After all, the Wiedervereinigung *here* caught everyone by surprise - maybe in this hypothetical TL events played out the way everyone expected them to. (Being an American, I'm always shocked to see a government pierce through the political gridlock and actually do something.)
I've heard of the planned micropartitioning of Germany but never read much about it. Charl, can you point me to a more detailed description of it (and a map would be helpful too) please?
I Blame Communism
Banned
Ah, the trails and tribulations of an honorary German Slavophile...
I even like, sympathise with, and defend France! I'm hopeless, I know.
At least I can still blame all the world's ills on Italy...
Thanks for saying what I was thinking.
I think that generally shows a trend: If you cut right through Germany, its an unstable situation. If you nipple off the fringes, though... So, maybe an independant Prussia (which will stress how the Teutonic Order after all never was part of the HRE), an independant Silesia (stressing how it also has slavic roots), an independant Lorraine (stressing French influences)... they all could much easier construct an own identity than Austria, anyways
That seems a rather generally workable model. We might look for examples elsewhere. China has repeatedly rebuilt itself from the ruins, but Taiwain has a credible movement for making independence de-jure. India and Pakistan might be a stretched case, since geographical "India" up to the Hindu Kush has shown something of a tendency to hegemonic powers, Russia would certainly seem to be an example.
Half the board thinks any united Germany will always end up being super-evil and must be kept disunited. Every colony in Germany`s posession will automatically be worse off and half of its population will be eradicated by the whims of the Kaiser, who was more evil then Hitler. And of course, Poland will be settled by Germans and most West Slavs will either be killed or Germanized if Germany (or Pruissia) has something to say about it! Lets not forget the endless wars Germany will cause! Thats because any German state is just a (slightly) watered down version of Nazi Germany.
If Hurgan wasnt such a nationalistic ass, most of that would be avoided.
Susano
Banned
I must admit, theres truth to what youve said. The Disunited Germany and Disunited Italy clichees I always go on about really ARE prelevant. Most of the time thats more about "did not do the research" and "just did not care" more than germanophobia. Or to wank another power, fearful of the potential of Germany, because as one knows, its Germanys eternal role to be disunited and rolled over by other armies
And yes, there is a huge number of people whod sacrifice Germany at the altar of peace. To which I always comment why not France, for example, for a change? But its always Germany.
As for the colonies, I miss the days when Abdul defended German colonailism as compared to other colonies. Ah well, all good things come to an end, heh.
The Disunited Germany cliche doesn't always come from germanophobia. Some of it actually comes from positive feelings: there's a certain historical nostalgia for all those German and Italian states and dynasties, marrying themselves into every other royal house in Europe. And the idea of an independent Bavaria or Saxony surviving longer has almost a quaint feel to it.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Half the board thinks any united Germany will always end up being super-evil and must be kept disunited. Every colony in Germany`s posession will automatically be worse off and half of its population will be eradicated by the whims of the Kaiser, who was more evil then Hitler. And of course, Poland will be settled by Germans and most West Slavs will either be killed or Germanized if Germany (or Pruissia) has something to say about it! Lets not forget the endless wars Germany will cause! Thats because any German state is just a (slightly) watered down version of Nazi Germany.
That's the Hurgan programme, and a few other people hold it more tactfully, but every nation has itz bizarrely determined and delusional detractors. An example I often militate about: the idea that the Russian are up to something no good and it's just as well they're all vodka-addled and incompetant (thus meaning no-one would ever possibly prefer their rule to any alternative whatever) or they'd have nationalised our women long ago.
Whereas Germany is a country with quite a few ideological (Hurgan) or ignorant (Kiat) detractors, but one which is readily defended. Most of us have a balanced understanding of the good and bad in German history.
The Poles provoked us!
Excuse me, that was immature, but we all know I'm a net-defender of Germany and its historical role. Really, though, some people made bannable remarks and it slipped under the radar.
Alex Richards
Donor
I think we could probably add one more with some sort of South German Confederation to go with the North German one. Not entirely sure it would stop Prussia taking over, but it's worth a shot.
Susano
Banned
That would be a cutr ight through Germany, and as said, thats just not stable. If not one or both side develop own identities, then reunification eventually will happen, and with borders across all of Germany, instead of it being just a peripherical territory like Austria and the other named examples, that chance is slim.
I must admit, theres truth to what youve said. The Disunited Germany and Disunited Italy clichees I always go on about really ARE prelevant. Most of the time thats more about "did not do the research" and "just did not care" more than germanophobia. Or to wank another power, fearful of the potential of Germany, because as one knows, its Germanys eternal role to be disunited and rolled over by other armies
And yes, there is a huge number of people whod sacrifice Germany at the altar of peace. To which I always comment why not France, for example, for a change? But its always Germany.
Honestly, rather than a disunited Germany, it'd be far more interesting to have a differently united Germany. Though, depending on what German state that's supposed to be (say, Bavaria or Saxony), that POD has to be located significantly enough in the past.
Oh yeah, and talking about France, it'd be interesting to have the fates of West and East Francia swapped, with a centralized Germany existing more or less since medieval ages, and a disunited France that is only unified in the 19th century. It'd be interesting to see such a TL, even though it'd be obviously quite ASB-ish...
If you discount the Herero genocide (which has a fundamentally more complicated backstory than one would think, because it's easy to say the Germans were racist and were hell-bend on eradicating subhuman scum...
), Germans didn't treat the subjects of their colonies all *that* badly. Ask the ones of the Brits or the French, or even the Belgians... Also, it has to count for something that former Askaris came to von Lettow-Vorbeck's funeral when he died.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Also, it has to count for something that former Askaris came to von Lettow-Vorbeck's funeral when he died.
As far as I'm concerned, colonialism is colonialism is colonialism and Germany had a markedly poor record, but that was really just because of a small sampling pool. Everybody was horrible in Africa.
But I do have to point out that this is an unsound argument. Very few Tanganyikans were Askari. Many more were conscripted, unpaid porters, or suffering major food shortages due to the colonial governments policy. British rule in India never did anyone much good, but the Indians still have khaki, shorts, regiments with alliances and marches, the works.