Maximillian (brother of Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph) survives

CaliGuy

Banned
What if Maximillian--the brother of Austrian/Austro-Hungarian Emperor Franz Joseph--would have survived?

For instance, let's say that the Mexicans decide to exile him rather than execute him in 1867.
 
What if Maximillian--the brother of Austrian/Austro-Hungarian Emperor Franz Joseph--would have survived?

For instance, let's say that the Mexicans decide to exile him rather than execute him in 1867.
He returns to Austria-Hungary heartbroken, returning to his old Naval career and giving thr insitution more life and attention instead of having a lull between him and Franz Ferdinand.

It probably means that Tegetthoff gets the ships he wanted to stay on-par with the Italians, but means little in the long run.

It's boring, to be fair. At least his wife is less likely to lose it?
 
It's boring, to be fair. At least his wife is less likely to lose it?

I think she'd already started going downhill during her futile attempt to drum support for her husband's failing regime, but she might keep things together a bit better IOTL.

Is it possible Crown Prince Rudolf is better off with a fellow liberal in the family?
 
I think she'd already started going downhill during her futile attempt to drum support for her husband's failing regime, but she might keep things together a bit better IOTL.

Is it possible Crown Prince Rudolf is better off with a fellow liberal in the family?
Maybe? I'm really interested in a Rudolf TL, but I think his issues were a bit deeper than that. The overall climate at Court after Königgrätz supposedly influenced him significantly and made him rather unstable.
 
Maybe? I'm really interested in a Rudolf TL, but I think his issues were a bit deeper than that. The overall climate at Court after Königgrätz supposedly influenced him significantly and made him rather unstable.

Yeah, there's possibly a genetic component too- his mother's mental health was iffy.

Would having Charlotte around at all influence things regarding Rudolf's marriage (his OTL wife Stephanie was obviously her niece)? If Rudolf notices her fraying mental health, or othwise forms a dislike of his aunt, could that put him off a Belgian marriage? Which could potentially give him a better personal life, though I agree that Rudolf's issues were likely deep-seated.
 
Yeah, there's possibly a genetic component too- his mother's mental health was iffy.

Would having Charlotte around at all influence things regarding Rudolf's marriage (his OTL wife Stephanie was obviously her niece)? If Rudolf notices her fraying mental health, or othwise forms a dislike of his aunt, could that put him off a Belgian marriage? Which could potentially give him a better personal life, though I agree that Rudolf's issues were likely deep-seated.
It's definitely no secret that Rudolf had a very, very unhappy marriage and yeah, I would say a different wife would help him. It won't solve his issues, but it can make him more stable in his daily life.
 
Yeah, there's possibly a genetic component too- his mother's mental health was iffy.

Would having Charlotte around at all influence things regarding Rudolf's marriage (his OTL wife Stephanie was obviously her niece)? If Rudolf notices her fraying mental health, or othwise forms a dislike of his aunt, could that put him off a Belgian marriage? Which could potentially give him a better personal life, though I agree that Rudolf's issues were likely deep-seated.

IIRC it wasn't Rudolf who decided on the marriage. There was a paucity of eligible Roman Catholic princesses around, and before her he'd hoped to marry a Tuscan archduchess or a Braganza infanta. His father ruled against the fellow archduchess on the grounds of her being too closely related and/or her poor health (she had TB), and the Braganza infanta (one of D. Miguel's daughters) turned him down. So, simply have the Braganza lady (who would be far less closely related to Rudi (their closest common ancestor being Carlos III, if I calculate right) than Stéphanie ever was (closest common ancestor being Leopold II), a it doesn't sound like much generation can make all the difference - I mean, if Baltasar Carlos had married Mariana instead of her marrying his dad (who was also her uncle) the Spanish Habsburgs might have lasted at least another generation.
 
IIRC it wasn't Rudolf who decided on the marriage. There was a paucity of eligible Roman Catholic princesses around, and before her he'd hoped to marry a Tuscan archduchess or a Braganza infanta. His father ruled against the fellow archduchess on the grounds of her being too closely related and/or her poor health (she had TB), and the Braganza infanta (one of D. Miguel's daughters) turned him down. So, simply have the Braganza lady (who would be far less closely related to Rudi (their closest common ancestor being Carlos III, if I calculate right) than Stéphanie ever was (closest common ancestor being Leopold II), a it doesn't sound like much generation can make all the difference - I mean, if Baltasar Carlos had married Mariana instead of her marrying his dad (who was also her uncle) the Spanish Habsburgs might have lasted at least another generation.
Thanks for the info. I was going to ask next whom would have been a suitable bride instead of Sephanie. Looks like he was rejected by Spanish princesses as well. Still, reading further, it looks like Rudolf's marriage was happy at first and I'm starting to doubt my initial conviction that a different woman would help.
 
What if Maximillian--the brother of Austrian/Austro-Hungarian Emperor Franz Joseph--would have survived?

For instance, let's say that the Mexicans decide to exile him rather than execute him in 1867.
Would be interesting with him still around in 1914.
 
The Mexican panel ruling against Maximilian were deadlocked 3-3 between death and banishment when the foreman voted for death. So yes Maximilian could have been exiled, and that's what the US was hoping for. Of course Max had signed away the AH throne so that door is closed forever.

Agreed, Charlotte might not descend into madness at all.

What Max does after that is probably rejoin the Navy - it's better ITTL but still AH loses the Great War...
 
The Mexican panel ruling against Maximilian were deadlocked 3-3 between death and banishment when the foreman voted for death. So yes Maximilian could have been exiled, and that's what the US was hoping for. Of course Max had signed away the AH throne so that door is closed forever.

Agreed, Charlotte might not descend into madness at all.

What Max does after that is probably rejoin the Navy - it's better ITTL but still AH loses the Great War...

IIRC, he signed away rights to the AH throne in exchange for rights to the Mexican throne. The Mexican throne is now defunct, so technically, the signature is null and void.

But I agree with you about the navy, but I'm not sure that a POD in 1867 necessarily means that Austria doesn't undertake a different set of alliances, especially if Rudi marries someone besides Stéphanie - for instance if he marries a Bragança infanta that means that Austria's going to ally itself with the more conservative side of European politics. Whereas a Spanish infanta might lead to a slightly more pro-French course being charted, especially if the Glorious Revolution ends with a Hohenzollern king of Spain, while Austria's crown princess is a Borbon.

As to Charlotte, if she stays reasonably sane, look forward to a continued rivalry with Sissi.
 
Good luck, I doubt Clarence Darrow could get that nullified...

I wasn't saying Franz Josef will nullify it, chances are pretty good, that Maximilian, like Charlotte, stays on at the Austrian court, perhaps he's appointed viceroy of somewhere (probably not, though) and they continue to be addressed as Their Imperial Majesties, the Emperor and Empress of Mexico. Hence why I said, Charlotte staying sane will cause no end of problems for Sissi. Charlotte disliked her, thought her too light, and as a Coburg, would've disapproved of her shirking her duties, but would have been more than happy to assume them as second lady of the court, not to mention disapproved of how close she was to Maximilian, and how distant she was from her own husband. As one early biographer of Charlotte said "two suns can not shine in the same firmament" in reference to Sissi and Charlotte's competing beauties. But Charlotte might use her maternal instincts and become a sort of 'second mother' to Gisela, Rudolf and Valerie, if Sissi/Sopherl doesn't fill the void.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
He returns to Austria-Hungary heartbroken, returning to his old Naval career and giving thr insitution more life and attention instead of having a lull between him and Franz Ferdinand.

OK.

It probably means that Tegetthoff gets the ships he wanted to stay on-par with the Italians, but means little in the long run.

OK.

It's boring, to be fair. At least his wife is less likely to lose it?

You're probably correct about his wife. However, there is one important thing which changes in this TL--specifically, in this TL, if Crown Prince Rudolf still commits suicide, either Maximillian or his eldest son (if he'll have one) will become the heir to the Austro-Hungarian thrones.

Indeed, what exactly were Maximillian's political views?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I think she'd already started going downhill during her futile attempt to drum support for her husband's failing regime, but she might keep things together a bit better IOTL.

Is it possible Crown Prince Rudolf is better off with a fellow liberal in the family?

Was Maximillian genuinely a liberal?

Maybe? I'm really interested in a Rudolf TL, but I think his issues were a bit deeper than that. The overall climate at Court after Königgrätz supposedly influenced him significantly and made him rather unstable.

So, what's the whole story behind Rudolf's descent into madness and suicide?
 
Was Maximillian genuinely a liberal?



So, what's the whole story behind Rudolf's descent into madness and suicide?
I can't say with authority since I've barely scratched the surface of these two in my readings. From what I understand, it seems whoever wrote Max's wiki article nailed it: too conservative for liberals and too liberal for conservatives. From his brief rule in Mexico, it seems to me that he was or wanted to be like Napoleon III. Moderate reformist and Liberal while maintaining moderate authoritarianism?

For Rudolf, again, I'm not certain and his tragedy is muddled with fiction, but I remember reading several years ago that the Nobility at court was so shocked by thr defeat against Prussia and how thorough it was that they went into complete denial that the Empire was declining and that its place as a great power was in severe danger. Rudolf grew up during those times and suppoedly became quite the libertine. Plus, add a mentally unstable mother (Sissi), an overbearing grandmother that repeatedly tormented his mother since they all competed for the dominant position in society, and a rather conservative father, and you got a pretty bad recipe for a crown prince when it comes to mental stability. Hell, considering Franz Joseph's severe depression when both Rudolf and Sissi were killed, FJ might not have been very stable either and he had his own array of personal issues...
 
Maximillian surviving is interesting in the little senses. It could have a profound effect on Rudolf, and it could really invigorate the AH navy in a way it never was OTL, which has the small potential for some interesting butterflies all its own.

In the grand scheme it most likely doesn't have too much effect on Mexico or the New World though (unless you get closet monarchists running around causing trouble).
 
I can't say with authority since I've barely scratched the surface of these two in my readings. From what I understand, it seems whoever wrote Max's wiki article nailed it: too conservative for liberals and too liberal for conservatives. From his brief rule in Mexico, it seems to me that he was or wanted to be like Napoleon III. Moderate reformist and Liberal while maintaining moderate authoritarianism?

Well...it is hard to say. Maximillian was definitely too liberal for the Conservatives, some of his proposed reforms would have undercut the power of the Church, completely demolished the haciendas dominance of the countryside, and probably uplifted a portion of the Native peasant population in a way not seen earlier in Mexican history. He was definitely a reformer, but how much of one is difficult to determine. He could be persuaded into rash actions (the infamous Black Decree) and never seemed decisive on political reform when he was trying to establish a government. He did manage to get some Liberals, and more than a few moderates on side though.

The Liberals were, by and large, opposed to Max on principle. Whether a firm monarchist victory would have put more of them onside is difficult to say.
 
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