Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by George Myles Gibson, Jul 11, 2019.
This could make an amazing HOI4 mod
Indeed, although I think George should rewrite this timeline with more details and better expanded sections on the nations with tidbits of more stuff on militaries, societies and economies.
Also to me, the Great War and the WW2 section feels kinda rushed so perhaps a rewrite could improve these arcs abut better.
To be honest you are correct on the rushed part because I wanted to keep it short and simple and give a summarization on the events. You're correct I will improve on many posts and give it more detail.
Decolonization still there, but Mexico can always find a better way to reform its empire into a similar system like the Commonwealth's Westminster System, where the head of state is the monarch but each nations was granted independence and had their own economy, military and goverment. Surely it will lose some colonies later on but in the end, the Multi-national Commonwealth System is definitely worth trying for reforming the Empire into a true democratic entity in Post-War era.
Reasons why it still can happen:
-Bankruptcy, both the Germans and Mexico were exhausted after the war and with colonies becoming more and more expensive to maintain and keeping control, the best way is to grant them independence to save yourself the troubles of governing them.You really cant keep them forever in the long run.
-New wave of progressive democracy ideologies from the US as well as the inspirations for nationalism that the Axis sorta gave them. The Axis ideologies are bad but their noble causes for supporting colonial independence movements are appreciated. This happens OTL with Indonesia
-The US economy now had outgrown other Great Powers in the aftermath, as many of them were still recovering from the war, the US emerged largely unscathed, and furthermore, they were pretty keen on supporting decolonization as well, and they would set off the first example by granting Philippines independence.
-The Ottoman Empire is also weakened badly in the aftermath of the war, so granting indepedence to the Balkan states might save them from the headaches of ethnic nationalism and its powder keg. For the Arab problem, i really dont know as if they let the local Arab rulers to rule their own lands, this might lead to the rise of sectarian Wahabbism so its might be a No-No as the Empire itself is pretty much quite secular and westernized at this point to be sullied by radical Muslim in the Middle East.
For the Post-WW2 cold war, its gonna be between the Monarchism and Republicanism between the German Empire and the United States. The Mexican Empire however, leads the Unaligned Movement as they had many of their allies both as democratic republics (like Ireland) and constitutional monarchies (like Poland). Other than that, my guess for the Danubian Empire is that it might broke up like the Soviet Union OTL due to ethnic nationalism problems and each nations choose to vote its own referendums to stay or leave in a much more peaceful way.
Also, German Empire would have proposed their own continental alliance equivalent to European Union in Post-War era, although how big this alliance is gonna be is up to you to imagine, one thing for sure, it might include the Ottoman Empire in as they had proved themselves to be quite adept at it.
The United States, Dominion of Canada and Second Mexican Empire later on could form their own EU equivalent, the North American Union as their shared economic/political alliance in the post-war period. Although the leader of this union would be rotated around, with representatives from each nation held the position each year instead of having a definite powerhouse leading them as all the three nations are militarily capable and had well-developed economy ITTL.
The rising powerhouses of Post-War era ITTL are likely going to be: China, Second Kingdom of Italy, Dominion of Canada, Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand, Japan, India.
One thing however, the Dominion of Canada would become part of the new United Kingdom of Great Britain and Canada in the post war, in a similar fashion to Austria-Hungary, the Dominion of Canada would still retain its own government, economy, but their military is the same as the British military in post-war era. The UK would also had two overseas capital of their own, Ottawa and London, while the power of the British Colonial Empire had diminished, the economic boom of the Dominion of Canada, largely untouched by the war improved significantly thanks to the establishment of the Royal government in exile and the massive rapid pre-war industrialization efforts in preparations for retaking their Home Islands.
In the end, losing Ireland perhaps isnt too bad afterall, they gained Canada as part of their new pluricontinental United Kingdom, just like what the former Brazil-Portugal once was. Although for the case of British Commonwealth, things went much smoother and both nations gladly accepted their union as equal sovereign nations, just like the rest of the nations within the Commonwealth like Australia, New Zealand and Hong Kong Protectorate.
Also, for a new flag of Post-War Mexican Commonwealth, i suggest we using this, its a way to remember the legacy of the old Spanish Empire as well as the legacy of the Habsburg through the Cross of Burgundy symbolism.
There are lot of alternate timelines in this alternate timeline that I could someday make after finishing this:
What if Mexico had helped France in the Franco Prussian War?
What if Mexico didn't help in the Brazilian restoration?
What if Mexico and Britain put aside their differences and Mexico joined the Allies in WW1?
What if Crown Prince Emiliano did marry princess Katherine of Greece?
What if Empress Beatrice didn't die and did produce a heir?
What if the Monarchy won the Brazilian Civil War?
What if Japan did win the Battles of Ceylon and Formosa?
What if the Central Powers fully intervened in the Russian Civil War?
There could be many more possibilities. This is definitely like a HOI4 multiple focus trees. By Friday I will start writing again, thank you all for your patience.
Big announcement tommorow I will continue writing, but before that I want to know all of your thoughts do you like were this timeline is going and is there anything you want added or answered? And I will try my best to add in as much details as possible.
We still havent seen the South American theatre between Argentina/Republic of Brazil and Bolivia alliance vs Mexico yet. This should definitely need to be covered as the 2nd World War TTL reached its 1942 stage.
Other than that, for Argentina, you could have their military being more developed than their OTL counterparts due to the need to fight the Mexican Empire in up North in a defensive war. AFAIK Argentina air forces are more than capable of producing its own domestic military aircrafts.
ITTL perhaps they could also deployed their own jet fighters early with Fascist French and UoB help to gain upper hands in their defense against the Allied Air Raids. For the list of Argentine military aircrafts, i will list them in a separate post.
I was waiting to introduce them when the United States declares war on the Axis. Other then that, their will be a major shake up with Mexico's relationship with the White Army and this could benefit either Hohenzollern Germany or Romania.
I understand Argentina and Brazil but why Bolivia? Why do they want to join the Axis and what on Earth would they gain from going to war with Mexico, unless Paraguay was Allied with Mexico and Bolivia wants to get back at Paraguay?
OTL Bolivia did get a lot of german advisers but maybe a way to recover their sea acess?
On January 13, Deniken was given devastating news and this immediately grounded to a halt to any new guerilla operations against the Red Army. On January 5, Empress Anastasia was visiting the indigenous people in Yucatán to raise morale and war bonds when a mosquito bite her, at first it was nothing and she didn't care until two days later when she fainted after severe fever and that's when her staff realized she had yellow fever and tried desperately to revive her, it was not enough and on the 9th she fell into a coma, until finally on the 12, Empress Anastasia passed away.
The Emperor and nation were devastated, Anastasia was more popular than the last Empress because of harrowing journey through multiple revolutions and she was a friend to the people by visiting military hospitals and the soldiers. On 15 a massive funeral procession with gun salutes and mourning, even in South Africa and the Raj people were mourning. After the funeral, Emperor Emiliano began focusing more on the war than finding a new wife, to distract himself from his loss, he ordered ships carrying ammunition to be smuggled through Vladivostok to keep helping the New White Army to continue supporting his former brother in law, Tsarevich Alexei. While in Mexico he ordered the construction of new tanks to be hurried to help break the stalemate in Spain and ordered the construction of the Anastasia class Battleship to finally wipe the IJN off the face of the Earth.
All over the world every leader gave their condolences to the Emperor for the loss of his wife, even Chile because even though their relationship was cold they were still close, except for one nation in South America: Argentina.
Argentina was under the control of President or dictator Juan Peron, who came to prominence after teaming up with his mentor Pedro Pablo Ramírez, also the founder of the fascist Guardia Nacional, to overthrow the President Roberto Maria Ortiz and Ramírez became de facto dictator himself, however Peron was more ambitious then he ever realized and with Peron having control of the army, he began to fear him. In September 12, 1939, just as the world had exploded again into another World War, Ramírez ordered Person's arrest, however the soldiers sent to arrest Peron instead refused and told Peron of Ramirez's plan. Peron acted quickly and in a coup he placed Ramírez himself under arrest and exiled him to the United States. Throughout the next year until December 10, 1940 he used his other mentor, Edelmiro Julián Farrell, as another a puppet President until on December 10, 1940 he removed Farrell from power and made himself de facto dictator of Argentina.
Pedro Pablo Ramírez
His Excellency, General Juan Peron
With himself in power he began modeling Argentina after fascist Sardinia and France and this immediately began tearing relations with Mexico, who was at war with both Sardinia and France. Because of that Argentina issued embargoes and tariffs on Mexico and even more disturbing; began buying from France and The Union of Britain multiple tanks, planes, and artillery. Spies from Mexico could already see were this was going and even more damning was what Peron said on the death of the Emperatriz: "Now all were need is that dotard in Chapultepec to drop dead and we can divide from that miserable corpse anything we want." Reports came back from Buenos Aires and made even worse when Peron ordered the closure and removal of all Mexican residents and the embassy.
Knowing were this was going and not wanting a Cam Rahn Bay like event happening again, Emperor Emiliano gave permission to generals to plan a Operation Z like plan to knock out as many Argentine ships as possible to remove any chance of Argentina attacking Mexican Guiana or God forbid the mainland herself, but before that, they had to force Argentina's hand first before attacking so to not make Mexico look like the agresor.
Meanwhile in Spain, Operation La Victoria with a army of 100,000 soldiers including Spanish, Irish, MEF, along with a few portuguese volunteers began on January 24 and it completely caught the French, who were majorily focused on Germany and the Italian peninsula to focus on Spain, completely by surprised and began pushing back the French army from Tereul to Zaragoza until the situation was finally stabilized by the combined Anglo French army and by the 6 of February the operation ended. Operation La Victoria was a failure because, even though the made numerous gains, that was not the operation's objective, the goal was to push France all the way back to Pyrenees not to Zaragoza. The operation's failure could be blamed on the lack of coordination between the three commanders in Spain: Pancho Villa, Michael Collins, and Francisco Franco for the most part, the three got along but they were very secretive on what were their objectives and were always avoidive when asked questions by the other. This lack of cooperation and coordination meant that during the operation when Spanish forces were under attack, the MEF would simply move forward and continue while it was the Irish who always made the most dangerous attacks.
Generals in the Spanish front: Franco, Villa, and Collins
Meanwhile in Germany two things were happening: a major build up of forces near the French occupied Alasce Lorraine line led the French to believe that a major offensive was going to happen there and began beefing up their forces and defenses, when in reality it was a diversion; the real offensive was to be in the Rhineland region and the plan was to use small infiltrating groups combined with tanks, bombers, and paratroopers to create as much chaos as possible and at the same time the infantry will push the French to Arnhem, Netherlands. Meanwhile the Kaiser now 83 was now under a regency by his son, Crown Prince Wilhelm, and when the Crown Prince heard of the death of the Emperatriz in Mexico he sent a message to the Conservative Party in the Chamber of the Deputies of the possibility of a marriage between the Emperor of Mexico and his niece, Federica of Hanover, the daughter of Viktoria Louise also the granddaughter of Wilhelm II. The Conservatives immediately pounced and agreed to the proposal because it was always their dream for the Emperor to marry a Hohenzollern and secretly they hated Anastasia because of her being a Romanov and a Othordox, now this was their chance, until one week later on February 14 when King Micheal of Romania sent news that Ileana was still unmarried and brought up the Treaty of Bucharest and ask the Conservatives to honor the agreement. Now the Conservatives were at a impass with the Conservatives who backed the princess of Romania because of her being Catholic and saying it was Mexico's duty to abide by the Treaty being called again Rumanistas, while the Conservatives who backed the German princess because it meant that the Mexican Royal family could be part of the Hohenzollern family directly, being labeled Alemanistas. This creates a bitter split in the Conservative Party, while the Reformist Party were also being divided; the leading members, including Prime Minister Cárdenas supported the daughter of the King of the Two Sicilies, Ferdinand Pius, Princess Urraca María, while there was a gigantic part of both the Reformist and Conservative Party members who supported the Bonaparte princess Marie Clotide Bonaparte, for the reasons to heal the rift between Mexico and France and also to undermine the King of France. These supporters became known as reconciliators because they want to reconcile relations between Mexico and France.
Crown Prince Regent, Wilhelm
Federica of Hanover
Ileana of Romania
King of The Two Sicilies, Ferdinand Pius
Marie Clotide Bonaparte
For the list of Argentine military aircrafts that can be suited for WW2 ITTL.
First one is the Dewoitine D.21 C1, an obsolete parasol monoplane fighter armed with 2xVickers machine guns & 2x7.5mm Darne machine guns. Argentina bought 7 units and a license from France and actually had built additional 58 planes for their Air Force and Navy, making the total number of 65 French type fighters ITTL.
The type was a match for the Polish PZL. P.11 and PZL P.24 that Mexico were using but inferior to the newer Wildcats and Bf-109T in service with the Mexican fleet.
Secondly, for a more modern monoplane fighter, we have the Hawk 75O, this is a licensed Argentine variant of the US Curtiss P-36 but with fixed gears for simplified construction and maintenance.
This aircraft was slightly better armed, with 3x7.7mm Madsen MGs and 1x11.35mm Madsen MG. It is also faster than the Dewoitine types, capable of 504km/h compared to the D.21 267km/h. 30 were delivered from the US and 20 were locally built in pre-war periods, making the total number into 50 Hawk 75O in service.
Despite the P-36 type good performance, Argentina did not built more than 100 planes mostly because they had a much more ambitious multi-role heavy fighter design in development, which is the third Argentine fighter we will cover now, the I.Ae.30 Nancu, the Argentine equivalent of the British Mosquito.
The I.Ae 30 would be a very effective design for a single seat heavy fighter, powered by two supercharged Rolls Royce Merlin engines supplied by the UoB, armed with four Hispano 20mm cannons and is capable of 740km/h pretty much faster than all of the existing Mexican planes. This plane fulfilled every demands for the Argentine Air Force, but its high production cost and demanding maintenance as well as the need to retool Argentine factories for new imported technologies mean the type wont be available until 1943-1944 at best, not to mention the number built would only be around 100~200 at best given Argentina economy at the time.
There is also concern that the Nancu type were not ready for the planned offensive campaigns that the Southern American Fascist Alliance were preparing against Mexican forces. So an interim design is needed, this resulted in the I.Ae.24 Calquin (Royal Eagle). Due to it being an interim design until the Nancu is available in large numbers, only 101 units were produced
The Calquin is also an equivalent of Mosquito but its actually a light bomber and attacker with the less powerful 1,050 hp Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp engines. In service, the type was appreciated for its durability and decent armaments of four Hispano 20mm cannons but performance wise a deadly aircraft to fly due to its prone to flight instability and slow speed of only 440km/h and poor maneuverability due to underpowered engines. (50 Argentine pilots were killed due to accidents during the Calquin service lifespan OTL).
Lastly, we have the single engine attackers/light bombers. The Argentine Air Force used two types. First is a batch of 16 locally built AeMB1/AeMB2 Bombi light bombers and 30 imported US Douglas A-17 Nomad attackers/fighters.
Both of them are pre-war light bomber designs and thus rather slow and obsolete by the time the war reached the American continent.
Mexican and Argentine relations were coming to a breaking point with Mexico trying to break them by doing what Austria-Hungary did to Serbia and issued a ultimatum to Argentina to:
Break all relations with the Axis.
Give up all Axis weapons.
End all hostile actions towards Mexico.
Juan Peron must step down from power .
Argentina must accept the Commonwealth's ownership of the Falklands islands.
It was the last two terms that struck a nerve with Argentina and that was the final straw; on March 13, Juan Peron made an announcement on radio that Mexico and Canada are Argentina's enemies and they want to rip Argentina apart and declared war on the Allies.
This finally gave Mexico the excuse they needed to attack the Argentine Naval dock in Buenos Aires and cripple the Navy long before they can even set sail. On March 15, three Mexican aircraft carriers departed from Mexican Guiana and silently arrived on the 16 at the Rio de la Plata and on the break of dawn on the 18, Mexican modified Stukas took off on 6:30 a.m. and began dive bombing on the Argentine Navy, specifically targeting the aircraft carriers and the Battleships, Argentine planes were desperately trying to scrambled but were cut down by Wildcat fighters, this time unlike the Japanese they wanted to make sure that the Argentine Airforce was destroyed, by 8:30 the planes left and the Argentines thought the attack was over and began trying to put down the flames and save what could be saved, ARA Independencia was now a burning hunk and ARA Veinticinco de Mayo was barely afloat, while for Battleships Libertad was taking in water while Independencia was largely undamaged.
What the Argentines thought that the worse was over was actually going to get a lot worse: because twenty minutes later came the second attack, apparently when the Mexican bombers left it was because they needed to rearm and now they're back. Again the Argentine Airforce was desperately trying to take off and again they were cut down by Wildcats, while the bombers focused all their bombs on threw targets: Independencia, Libertad and the General Belgrano and after the second attack Independencia was no more and Libertad has now been sunk, while the Belgrano was on fire.
Both before the attack
Argentine Interwar Battleship Moreno destroyed
After the second attack the planes returned back to the carriers and they returned back to Guiana certain that it was mission accomplished. The Battle of Buenos Aires leveled almost all of the Argentine modern ships with only Belgrano being salvaged partly, and this basically eliminated an Argentine attack on the colonies, so much so that Peron had to abandon his join the IJN and fight the Pacific fleet and instead focus on just the Falklands.
On the topic of Argentinian jet fighters, i want to bring this up because the Argentine first jet, the FMA Pulqui I was actually designed by a French engineer Emile Dewoitine so perhaps this plane can served as TTL version of an Argentina’s He-162, advanced jet fighters regarded as wonder weapons that only available in small numbers near the end of the war which did not change much of the deteriorating war situation in Argentina. Its also looks convincing enough to fit into a late-WW2 1st Gen jet design.
The Pulqui I is also a lot more simple due to being a single engines jet fighter with conventional straight wings as opposed to the British Gloster Meteor twin jet engines design.
Given the earlier Argentine industrialization and militarization. I think the Pulqui I earliest entry into service would have to be 1944-1945 as jet technology still need time to mature.
The Pulqui I used British jet engine, armed with 4xHispano cannons, while its not as fast as the later jet designs, however with max speed of 720km/h its still outperformed most of the single piston engined aircrafts in service at the time.
So in short, Argentina will had its own version of “Air Campaign of Defense of the Reich” which consist of massive Entente heavy bombers sorties attempted to bomb Argentina into submission by focusing on cities and strategic industrial areas. Argentina best response to this threat is through the developments of their high performance I.Ae.30 Nancu heavy fighters and the Pulqui.I jet fighters as the most advanced design available in deterring Allied air raids.
It also gave TTL Argentina an impression as being technologically ahead of the US, Commonwealth and Mexico due to having their jets earlier than these three but cannot outproduce the combined industrial capabilities of the North American Triple Entente. Just like OTL Nazi Germany and Japan, the Argentinian jets are too little too late to change the outcome of the war.
the Argentine also had two WW1 era super dreadnought battleships Moreno and Rivadavia, what happened to them?
They survived and will be used in the invasion of the Falkland islands. The Imperial Marina only focused on the more modern Interwar Battleships.
Any other questions, concerns, or comments?
Perhaps for Argentine interwar BBs, I think they should be the Italian Roma class, mostly because Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont dont have the resources to built them so since the two had pretty close relations, they transfer the design to the Argentinians instead. The Italian Roma ITTL would become the Argentinian Libertad instead.
There are pictures of the Roma sinking after being hit by Fritz X guided bomb, I think you can add it as an image for one of the Argentine Interwar BB sinking at the harbor after being hit by Mexican bombers.
What do you think of the Marriage battle in the Chamber and who do you think would be the better candidate?
I actually wanted to see a break up Mexico and Germany and their political fallout after the war with Mexico drifted closer to the Commonwealth and USA sphere. However, i think at this moment they should honor their deal with the Romanians.
Separate names with a comma.