Maximilian modernize Mexico without been invade by U.S.?

[Hydraphantom]

Please see the world from here, I made some change but the grand structer are still the same: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...pinion-about-this-alt-history-country.408698/

After the successful defeat of rebels by Emperor Maximilian with the help of France and later Austria in 1867, European monarchy forces have finally re-set foot on America continent.

With the backing of Austria (and later, The Reich and Spain), how should Maximilian modernize his beloved country without been invade by the republic from the north? What sort of problem will he face after the rebel have been crushed?

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Backing from the Reich?

 

[Anaxagoras]

With the backing of Austria (and later, The Reich and Spain), how should Maximilian modernize his beloved country without been invade by the republic from the north? What sort of problem will he face after the rebel have been crushed?

His main issue will be maintaining the support of the Catholic Church and the conservative aristocracy while finding ways to liberalize Mexico. He wanted to make life better for the ordinary people, which would inevitably reduce the influence of those conservative forces he depended upon for his base of support.

 

[Hydraphantom]

Backing from the Reich?

Austria restored the Holy Roman Empire in my TL, I just got used to call it as "The Reich".

 

[JackLumber]

Austria restored the Holy Roman Empire in my TL, I just got used to call it as "The Reich".

What? How? Why?

 

[Asami]

After the successful defeat of rebels by Emperor Maximilian with the help of France and later Austria in 1877, European monarchy forces have finally re-set foot on America continent.

By 1877, the general "momentum" of time is against Europe. The United States will not take Europe's presence in the continent very well, and now that the Confederates have been suppressed, Mexico's little monarchy isn't liable to last long either.

What? How? Why?

I concur with this sentiment. How did the Austrians reform the HRE in an era of nationalism, where attempts to enforce Catholicism on the Protestant North Germans would be impossible, do so?

Prussia is by far a stronger and more capable military than Austria's (as evidenced by the thorough whopping the Austrians got in 1866), and Italy which is literally so nationalistic that one man and his army of people invaded multiple monarchies and overthrew them in the name of one Italian King?

Austria has no chance to enforce her will on Mexico from over the ocean, and Maximillian isn't going to last forever, he's a foreign invader, and will be hated by the commoners; which effectively makes his monarchy a dead issue from the get-go.

Unless you get the UK to back you against the Yanks (which they won't FYI), you won't last long against them.

 

[Hydraphantom]

By 1877, the general "momentum" of time is against Europe. The United States will not take Europe's presence in the continent very well, and now that the Confederates have been suppressed, Mexico's little monarchy isn't liable to last long either.

I'm sorry I made a typo, it was suppose to be 1867 not 1877, Austria filled in the gap after French withdrawn.

I concur with this sentiment. How did the Austrians reform the HRE in an era of nationalism, where attempts to enforce Catholicism on the Protestant North Germans would be impossible, do so?

Prussia is by far a stronger and more capable military than Austria's (as evidenced by the thorough whopping the Austrians got in 1866), and Italy which is literally so nationalistic that one man and his army of people invaded multiple monarchies and overthrew them in the name of one Italian King?

Austria has no chance to enforce her will on Mexico from over the ocean, and Maximillian isn't going to last forever, he's a foreign invader, and will be hated by the commoners; which effectively makes his monarchy a dead issue from the get-go.

Unless you get the UK to back you against the Yanks (which they won't FYI), you won't last long against them.

Thank you, I've been thinking about how for quite a while too, I understand that the condition to reform HRE are extremely difficult and would face so many problems. Here is a few points I am considering to make it more probable:

• Push the PoD back to 1804 (was 1806), propagate Austria as the defender of all German people from foreign aggression, and denounce Prussia as traitor of German people. Make them understand that Prussians kissed Napoleon's foot and don't give a damn about German people, it was Austrians who fought to the bitter end.
• Call themselves as "The Empire" on all formal talking within the German and Italian sphere, make a (false) impression to the masses that HRE still exist.
• Promote freedom of religion and do not enforce German on Slavs, Italians and Hungarians. Make it clear there would be no enforcement of Catholicism on Northern German.
• Join Crimean war on Russian side, no matter win or lost, it will give a great impression to the Tsar and strengthen the alliance, instead of what happened OTL.

I had explained some back in the original thread, it's a extremely difficult path to walk, and one single step wrong, the empire would literally shatter into pieces.

I am not quite sure of other European Monarchy's attitude against Imperial Mexico, the most dangerous years would be 1867-1870, the Union just finished the south and would have a huge momentum to roll Mexico over. I'm considering to move Austrian army into Mexico and made it clear that attack against Mexico would be an attack against Austria, and further, all European Monarchy.

I was thinking about to make UK fight the Union for the unlawful arrest of British diplomat to Confederacy in 1961[1], tension was very high back then, and only because of Lincoln that Britain did not come in and fight with South. I don't think that's too probable so it's not implemented.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Affair

 

[Asami]

it was Austrians who fought to the bitter end.

Austria was defeated in the same war as Prussia and was humiliated as well. Battle of Austerlitz, anyone? If you butterfly away Austria's defeat, Napoleon's expansion is checked at Germany, thus removing the impetus to do anything to the HRE other than let it stagnate.

If Austria refused to withdraw from the war, they would've been even further humiliated than they were OTL.

Call themselves as "The Empire" on all formal talking within the German and Italian sphere, make a (false) impression to the masses that HRE still exist.

But in realpolitik, that would fool nobody. The German states don't want to be subservient to the Habsburgs, hence why most of them lotted in with Berlin when the time came for the call to unification.

And the other European powers are only more than happy to oblige the reality, and work against Austrian interests in Germany.

• Promote freedom of religion and do not enforce German on Slavs, Italians and Hungarians. Make it clear there would be no enforcement of Catholicism on Northern German.

Austria's history on religious tolerance in the Holy Roman Empire, and ethnic tolerance in the post-Napoleon era don't support this idea.

I'm considering to move Austrian army into Mexico and made it clear that attack against Mexico would be an attack against Austria, and further, all European Monarchy.

Austria didn't really have enough of a navy or army to project to Latin America in the 1860s. They were already dealing with a bunch of uppity Hungarian nobility and Germany's own little nationalist zeal. You can't butterfly away both unless you stop Napoleon's expansion, which would be a whole separate horde of butterflies.

Also, Britain and the United States are... rather aggressive in protecting their sphere of influence in the Americas.

I am not quite sure of other European Monarchy's attitude against Imperial Mexico

From what history tells us, nobody except for France and Austria cared about Imperial Mexico. Britain was more than happy to play along with Lincoln and his successor's two-string band; Prussia was busy aggressively pursuing unification, and Russia was gladly selling her only remaining American colony to the United States. The Yanks were on the rise and after the Civil War, Lord help the nation that tried to stop it.

only because of Lincoln that Britain did not come in and fight with South. I don't think that's too probable so it's not implemented.

The UK had nothing to gain and everything to lose from supporting the CSA. And if you remove Lincoln from the equation, the Civil War is a whole separate kettle of fish, and a whole different outcome because I doubt any American politician could've pulled off what Lincoln did.

Even if the UK did go to war with the Union and somehow win, what would it do? It make the United States just like France post-1870 or Germany post-1918 writ large. An entire nation, embittered and angry at a foreign power for taking their land and enforcing stupid occupation rules, and ready to strike back. Within a generation's time, the United States will be armed to the teeth, very angry, and ready to bury entire civilizations in her anger.

If France can't hope to bolster Mexico, how the hell could Austria do so?

 

[Asami]

I'd also note that Prussia lasted almost a year longer than Austria did, between the Battle of Austerlitz, and the Battle of Jena–Auerstedt. If anybody has the right to boast about their "bitter end", it's definitely the Prussians.

 

[thezerech]

In my TL that I'm working on Maximilian and the French defeat the Republicans by 1865. This means that no U.S intervention except a full on invasion of Mexico will restore the Republic to power. I also killed off Benito Juarez by 1863. This leaves the liberals with much less centralized leadership.

With Juarez dead and basically all of Mexico under Imperialist control by 1865 the U.S has no choice but to accept the Empire. I just can't imagine the U.S invading Mexico after the civil war.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

I'd also note that Prussia lasted almost a year longer than Austria did, between the Battle of Austerlitz, and the Battle of Jena–Auerstedt. If anybody has the right to boast about their "bitter end", it's definitely the Prussians.

They also entered the war one year later...

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Would the following work: the Confederates do better in 1863 and the Confederacy last one year longer until 1866. This gives France the time to consolidate their position in Mexico and Maximilian can stabilize his reign?

 

[Asami]

With Juarez dead and basically all of Mexico under Imperialist control by 1865 the U.S has no choice but to accept the Empire. I just can't imagine the U.S invading Mexico after the civil war.

No, but they'll definitely start bankrolling anybody who opposes the Empire, or try to force Maximillian to reorient to Washington's line, not Paris or Vienna.

And you won't completely eliminate opposition, either. They'll still exist, in hiding. He's still a foreign invader, not like Iturbide who was already living in Mexico.

 

[Indicus]

I concur with this sentiment. How did the Austrians reform the HRE in an era of nationalism, where attempts to enforce Catholicism on the Protestant North Germans would be impossible, do so?

Austria could potentially unify Germany by using German nationalism with a Congress of Vienna POD, but I don't think it could do so with the Holy Roman Empire still existing. They'd just form a new German state, based upon nationalism and excluding Prussia.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Austria could potentially unify Germany by using German nationalism with a Congress of Vienna POD

The German Confederation (Deutscher Bund) created at the Congress of Vienna was in many regards a remake of the Holy Roman Empire. The Austrian and Prussian territories which hadn't been part of to the HRE didn't belong to the German Confederation. The main difference was the absence of an Emperor, even if the restoration of the Empire (together with modernizing reforms) had been supported by the Russian envoy Stein.

What German nationalists wanted wasn't the recreation of the HRE (even if they liked to idealize it as the Alte Reich, Old Empire), but the formation of a modern German state with some symbols of the old empire (like the Emperor). What Austria and Prussia wanted was a loose federation where the different kings and territorial princes would retain the sovereignty of their states. Indeed, the German Confederation proved to be very effective if Austria and Prussia worked together to defend common interests, but was finally dissolved due to the Austria–Prussia rivalry.

 

[Indicus]

The German Confederation (Deutscher Bund) created at the Congress of Vienna was in many regards a remake of the Holy Roman Empire. The Austrian and Prussian territories which hadn't been part of to the HRE didn't belong to the German Confederation. The main difference was the absence of an Emperor, even if the restoration of the Empire (together with modernizing reforms) had been supported by the Russian envoy Stein.

I wasn't intending to state that the German Confederation could become a German nation. I was trying to say that, if Austria gained control of the Rhineland at the Congress of Vienna, it would have the resources to become the dominant German power, and would be best placed to unify Germany.

 

[thezerech]

No, but they'll definitely start bankrolling anybody who opposes the Empire, or try to force Maximillian to reorient to Washington's line, not Paris or Vienna.

And you won't completely eliminate opposition, either. They'll still exist, in hiding. He's still a foreign invader, not like Iturbide who was already living in Mexico.

Maximilian did not randomly show up and just decide to invade Mexico. He was chosen by the exiled conservatives. He was, for many Mexicans, a liberator not a conqueror.

Mexico even today has a very strong anti American tradition, when Maximilian has defeated the liberal/Republican armies in the field and the U.S starts arming and paying partisans I think that if anything that'll improve Maximilian's popularity.

Frankly I think the U.S, which attm would be under Andrew Johnson, would have to accept a fait accompli of the Empire.