Maximilian I holy Roman emperor has a second son

For one thing, if Francis is alive and Charles (son of Philip) marries earlier with less travelling we might see a complete separation for the Empire and Spain. Low countries/Burgundian inheritance to a second son, Naples + Spain to the elder son.

Spain doesn't acquire Milan if we have OTL Italian wars. Less burden to be involved in Imperial affairs. They'll co-operate in Italy agx France, and assist with fighting the Ottomans but overall there's less skin in the game.

Genealogically, well........
I like the thought of that.
 
I think that the French and Holy Roman Empire will still fight over it for some reason. Italy was the hotspot in Europe at that time.
 
I think Bona was smart enough to keep Milan in Sforza's hands, she'll do better there than in Poland due to fact that she is more familar with Italian political situation and style of reign than with Polish one.
 
I think that the French and Holy Roman Empire will still fight over it for some reason. Italy was the hotspot in Europe at that time.

Yes, this is the 1st era of french expansion into the Empire post 1490. The interesting thing is on whom does the burden fall most on circa 1520 when Francis starts getting distracted by Martin Luther and the reformation.

About Milan... If Bona marries her Sforza cousin instead of Sigismund, then Milan could stay in Sforza's hands.
I think Bona was smart enough to keep Milan in Sforza's hands, she'll do better there than in Poland due to fact that she is more familar with Italian political situation and style of reign than with Polish one.

It certainly enhances the legitimacy of Ludovico's line. If we have the same OTL italian war outcome and Bona + Massimiliano having kids the Sforza are more likely to remain in control in Milan. However, I'm not quite sure how her pro-French stance might help her. She'll be good at playing the Habsburgs and French off each other, hopefully better than her uncle Ludovico.
 
Oh Francis is definitly wanting Milan. And France does too. Cue trouble.

How long would Francis live? Philip died premature, but Margaret died in 1530 at the age 50. Would 1532 be appropriate?
 
Oh Francis is definitly wanting Milan. And France does too. Cue trouble.

How long would Francis live? Philip died premature, but Margaret died in 1530 at the age 50. Would 1532 be appropriate?


I was thinking around then yes. By which point perhaps there’s mor solid control over Hungary
 
Oh Francis is definitly wanting Milan. And France does too. Cue trouble.

How long would Francis live? Philip died premature, but Margaret died in 1530 at the age 50. Would 1532 be appropriate?

I think the issue is so long as it's not in French hands or allies of the French, Francis will be happy. Milan is too close to the hereditary lands to leave in the hands of a hostile power. The reformation is going to be a bigger issue for him, he doesn't have the resources OTL Charles had (Austria + Burgundy + Spain + Naples vs just Austria circa the diet of worms in 1521; and then if we keep things as is for a Schmalkaldic League & war circa 1531 Austria, Bohemia + rump Hungary via his son & daughter in law).

Charles (son of Philip) will help with Milan, the french had used it as a post to stage attacks on Naples so he won't face much domestic opposition with that. Funding and being actively involved in imperial wars of religion if his own territories aren't directly affected on the other-hand might not sell as well.

Also an interesting prospect how will this affect early protestant-french alliances. Assuming the Sforza's retain Milan post the League of Cognac, can they justify surrendering territory to the French now that it's not really directly attacking the Emperor but rather is nephew a fellow prince of the empire. Not sure how it'd sell.

Also what happens to Wurttemberg? Can Francis buy it from the Swabian League like OTL Charles did in 1520? Will he be able to keep it out of the Duke of Wurttemberg's hands?
 
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Francis has some advantages of his own though. He, unlike OTL Charles V, would be permanently in the Empire. As such he should be able to address the underlying political issues sooner and better, simply because he can have a kind of focus, OTL Charles never could have had to begin with. Religiously an ATL Imperial variant of the OTL French Gallican church with the Roman Catholic Church, would not be unwelcome either. Religiously a less powerful Emperor, ironically enough, might be able to get Contra-Reformation reforms sooner. That would not totally stop the Reformation, but it would make it less popular, since this would address the issues, even Catholics agreed they needed to be changed. To put it differently, it will slow down the spread and in some cases might even prevent it gaining dominance in certain OTL regions.
 
I wonder how would situation in Denmark develop with Danish Olodenburgs connected to Habsburgs by double marriage. Any chance for Christian II to stay on the throne?
And if Bona is meant to stay in Milan, do we agree that it is because Sigismund would marry Francis' oldest daughter instead?
 
I wonder how would situation in Denmark develop with Danish Olodenburgs connected to Habsburgs by double marriage. Any chance for Christian II to stay on the throne?
And if Bona is meant to stay in Milan, do we agree that it is because Sigismund would marry Francis' oldest daughter instead?

Christian II if he does exactly as OTL still gets deposed. Habsburg's will be too busy to help him. On Sigismund we need someone who is at least 16 by 1516 a year after Barbara Zapolya died, so he can have a son quickly. So we need someone born in the 1490s, and Habsburg allied if we want Habsburg-PLC relations improvement. He could also go domestically and marry Sophia of Masovia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_of_Masovia). She's of the Piasts so it would bolster domestic support and the Habsburgs are distant relatives to Sophia, sharing common descent from Siemowit III of Warsaw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemowit_III,_Duke_of_Masovia; Habsburgs descend from he younger son Siemowit IV, Sophia descends from the older son Janusz I of Warsaw)
 
Christian II if he does exactly as OTL still gets deposed. Habsburg's will be too busy to help him. On Sigismund we need someone who is at least 16 by 1516 a year after Barbara Zapolya died, so he can have a son quickly. So we need someone born in the 1490s, and Habsburg allied if we want Habsburg-PLC relations improvement. He could also go domestically and marry Sophia of Masovia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_of_Masovia). She's of the Piasts so it would bolster domestic support and the Habsburgs are distant relatives to Sophia, sharing common descent from Siemowit III of Warsaw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemowit_III,_Duke_of_Masovia; Habsburgs descend from he younger son Siemowit IV, Sophia descends from the older son Janusz I of Warsaw)
Sigismund remarried in 1518, so 1502 born girl would be old enough, IOTL he was interested in marriage with Eleanor of Austria. IOTL Sigismund had plans to marry his oldest daughters to one of Masovian dukes, he also tought about marrying his bastard son Jan (born 1499) to Anna of Mazovia. He did not married Mazovian princess himself to not make conflict with nobles, who would fear that instead of incorporating Mazovia into the Crown after ducal line died out, he try to make it hereditary duchy for his own descendants (although some senators urged him to marry Dowager Duchess of Mazovia to tie Duchy closer to Poland).
 
Sigismund remarried in 1518, so 1502 born girl would be old enough, IOTL he was interested in marriage with Eleanor of Austria. IOTL Sigismund had plans to marry his oldest daughters to one of Masovian dukes, he also tought about marrying his bastard son Jan (born 1499) to Anna of Mazovia. He did not married Mazovian princess himself to not make conflict with nobles, who would fear that instead of incorporating Mazovia into the Crown after ducal line died out, he try to make it hereditary duchy for his own descendants (although some senators urged him to marry Dowager Duchess of Mazovia to tie Duchy closer to Poland).

I saw that about the dowager duchess but she's in her late 30's by then. Per Wikipedia, this was why Joana of Castile was rejected when Maximilian chose her as a candidate (and she's even younger at 36). That's which is why I thought one of her daughters, Sophia, would be better. In 1517 (let's give a year for mourning) Sophia would be 18 and she's got 2 younger brothers, the succession to Masovia at this point is relatively safe. The nobility, if they were concern would put pressure on their mum Anna to arrange for her sons marriage as soon as they attain their majority in 1518.
 
Ok so, here's what everyone has suggested so far:
  • Marriage for Maximilian of Austria to Anne of Bohemia and Hungary, probably before her brother's death. Thus, that brings the line of Francis into possession of Hungary and thus Hapsburg dominance there like OTL, but under a different line.
  • For Mary of Austria, there' been talk of Sigismund I of Poland, but as has been pointed out, she's a few years too young, and even if she swapped birthdates with her brother, she's probably still too young for him. However, I could see her ending up with (a) Ferdinand of Austria, her cousin and Charles, King of Spain and Duke of Burgundy's brother, (b) Christian III of Denmark. However, the second match might cause a rift between the two lines of the Hapsburgs. As interesting as that could be, I have doubts it would actually happen. The reality is, Mary of Austria is in the awkward spot of being too young for many people, and too old for most of the others. It might be interesting to see her marry into Portugal, maybe as Luis, Duke of Beja's wife in a double match with one of her cousins and John of Portugal. If that happens, she might automatically end up with John III of Portugal, if she's sent with Eleanor of Austria and Manuel I of Portugal snaps her up. That will cause a rift between Manuel and both of his elder sons, which would be interesting. That's what I'm going to go with for this family tree, but her marriage (as are all of them) would be up to the writer of the timeline.
  • For Francis, I could easily see him entering the church hierarchy. An Archbishop in the family is always a good thing, and either Francis or Leopold could be set up for that. However, let's say he's not a good fit for the church and Leopold is (because he's the youngest). I could see him marrying later in life, perhaps to an heiress if they can find one, but most likely just a noblewoman, probably Hungarian. I could actually see him marrying a daughter of Stephan Bathory, maybe Anna Bathory, who OTL was the mother of the famed Elizabeth Bathory.
  • Christine of Austria has been allocated to France. So either Francis I of France as a second wife, Charles VIII of France as a second wife, or maybe a son of Charles VIII, depending on the timeline. However, I must say that in the case of Charles VIII surviving, there's likely also a son of Louis, Duke of Orleans open as a potential husband for Christine, which might be interesting.
  • Leopold is likely set for the church, if Francis isn't.
  • Elisabeth of Austria has already been sent to the Elector Palatine, according to group consensus. However, I must add that he won't be Elector Palatine until 1559, and before then, he's just an heir to a Duke. So it bears to reason that she might marry elsewhere. It really depends on the timeline.

Francis of Austria, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1481: c.1532) m. Elizabeth of Austria (b.1485: d.1555) (a)

1a) Maximilian of Austria (b.1502) m. Anne I, Queen of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503) (a)

2a) Mary of Austria (b.1505) m. John III of Portugal (b.1502: d.1557) (a)

3a) Francis of Austria (b.1507) m. Anne Bathory (c.1530) (a)

4a) Christina of Austria (b.1510) m. Francis I of France (b.1494: d.1547)/Charles VIII of France or his son (b.1470/c.1500) (a)

5a) Leopold of Austria, Archbishop of *Insert Name Here* (b.1512)

6a) Elisabeth of Austria (b.1515) m. Frederick III, Elector Palpatine (b.1515: d.1576) (a)​
 
Ok so, here's what everyone has suggested so far:
  • Marriage for Maximilian of Austria to Anne of Bohemia and Hungary, probably before her brother's death. Thus, that brings the line of Francis into possession of Hungary and thus Hapsburg dominance there like OTL, but under a different line.
  • For Mary of Austria, there' been talk of Sigismund I of Poland, but as has been pointed out, she's a few years too young, and even if she swapped birthdates with her brother, she's probably still too young for him. However, I could see her ending up with (a) Ferdinand of Austria, her cousin and Charles, King of Spain and Duke of Burgundy's brother, (b) Christian III of Denmark. However, the second match might cause a rift between the two lines of the Hapsburgs. As interesting as that could be, I have doubts it would actually happen. The reality is, Mary of Austria is in the awkward spot of being too young for many people, and too old for most of the others. It might be interesting to see her marry into Portugal, maybe as Luis, Duke of Beja's wife in a double match with one of her cousins and John of Portugal. If that happens, she might automatically end up with John III of Portugal, if she's sent with Eleanor of Austria and Manuel I of Portugal snaps her up. That will cause a rift between Manuel and both of his elder sons, which would be interesting. That's what I'm going to go with for this family tree, but her marriage (as are all of them) would be up to the writer of the timeline.
  • For Francis, I could easily see him entering the church hierarchy. An Archbishop in the family is always a good thing, and either Francis or Leopold could be set up for that. However, let's say he's not a good fit for the church and Leopold is (because he's the youngest). I could see him marrying later in life, perhaps to an heiress if they can find one, but most likely just a noblewoman, probably Hungarian. I could actually see him marrying a daughter of Stephan Bathory, maybe Anna Bathory, who OTL was the mother of the famed Elizabeth Bathory.
  • Christine of Austria has been allocated to France. So either Francis I of France as a second wife, Charles VIII of France as a second wife, or maybe a son of Charles VIII, depending on the timeline. However, I must say that in the case of Charles VIII surviving, there's likely also a son of Louis, Duke of Orleans open as a potential husband for Christine, which might be interesting.
  • Leopold is likely set for the church, if Francis isn't.
  • Elisabeth of Austria has already been sent to the Elector Palatine, according to group consensus. However, I must add that he won't be Elector Palatine until 1559, and before then, he's just an heir to a Duke. So it bears to reason that she might marry elsewhere. It really depends on the timeline.

Francis of Austria, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1481: c.1532) m. Elizabeth of Austria (b.1485: d.1555) (a)

1a) Maximilian of Austria (b.1502) m. Anne I, Queen of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503) (a)

2a) Mary of Austria (b.1505) m. John III of Portugal (b.1502: d.1557) (a)

3a) Francis of Austria (b.1507) m. Anne Bathory (c.1530) (a)

4a) Christina of Austria (b.1510) m. Francis I of France (b.1494: d.1547)/Charles VIII of France or his son (b.1470/c.1500) (a)

5a) Leopold of Austria, Archbishop of *Insert Name Here* (b.1512)

6a) Elisabeth of Austria (b.1515) m. Frederick III, Elector Palpatine (b.1515: d.1576) (a)​

I vote Francis (son of Francis) gets the Duchy of Wurttemberg!!:winkytongue: if Francis (HRE) can afford it (;))
 
Ok so, here's what everyone has suggested so far:
  • Marriage for Maximilian of Austria to Anne of Bohemia and Hungary, probably before her brother's death. Thus, that brings the line of Francis into possession of Hungary and thus Hapsburg dominance there like OTL, but under a different line.
  • For Mary of Austria, there' been talk of Sigismund I of Poland, but as has been pointed out, she's a few years too young, and even if she swapped birthdates with her brother, she's probably still too young for him. However, I could see her ending up with (a) Ferdinand of Austria, her cousin and Charles, King of Spain and Duke of Burgundy's brother, (b) Christian III of Denmark. However, the second match might cause a rift between the two lines of the Hapsburgs. As interesting as that could be, I have doubts it would actually happen. The reality is, Mary of Austria is in the awkward spot of being too young for many people, and too old for most of the others. It might be interesting to see her marry into Portugal, maybe as Luis, Duke of Beja's wife in a double match with one of her cousins and John of Portugal. If that happens, she might automatically end up with John III of Portugal, if she's sent with Eleanor of Austria and Manuel I of Portugal snaps her up. That will cause a rift between Manuel and both of his elder sons, which would be interesting. That's what I'm going to go with for this family tree, but her marriage (as are all of them) would be up to the writer of the timeline.
  • For Francis, I could easily see him entering the church hierarchy. An Archbishop in the family is always a good thing, and either Francis or Leopold could be set up for that. However, let's say he's not a good fit for the church and Leopold is (because he's the youngest). I could see him marrying later in life, perhaps to an heiress if they can find one, but most likely just a noblewoman, probably Hungarian. I could actually see him marrying a daughter of Stephan Bathory, maybe Anna Bathory, who OTL was the mother of the famed Elizabeth Bathory.
  • Christine of Austria has been allocated to France. So either Francis I of France as a second wife, Charles VIII of France as a second wife, or maybe a son of Charles VIII, depending on the timeline. However, I must say that in the case of Charles VIII surviving, there's likely also a son of Louis, Duke of Orleans open as a potential husband for Christine, which might be interesting.
  • Leopold is likely set for the church, if Francis isn't.
  • Elisabeth of Austria has already been sent to the Elector Palatine, according to group consensus. However, I must add that he won't be Elector Palatine until 1559, and before then, he's just an heir to a Duke. So it bears to reason that she might marry elsewhere. It really depends on the timeline.

Francis of Austria, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1481: c.1532) m. Elizabeth of Austria (b.1485: d.1555) (a)

1a) Maximilian of Austria (b.1502) m. Anne I, Queen of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503) (a)

2a) Mary of Austria (b.1505) m. John III of Portugal (b.1502: d.1557) (a)

3a) Francis of Austria (b.1507) m. Anne Bathory (c.1530) (a)

4a) Christina of Austria (b.1510) m. Francis I of France (b.1494: d.1547)/Charles VIII of France or his son (b.1470/c.1500) (a)

5a) Leopold of Austria, Archbishop of *Insert Name Here* (b.1512)

6a) Elisabeth of Austria (b.1515) m. Frederick III, Elector Palpatine (b.1515: d.1576) (a)​
Loving this
 
Sorry if I'm derailing or this seems like a stupid request, but can we please differentiate between Franz, the Holy Roman Emperor and François, the king of France by using the native forms of their names, rather than just referring to them both as Francis. There've been several places where I've had to reread a paragraph several times over to figure out which one we're talking about.

PS: My apologies for sounding whiny
 
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