Maximilian I holy Roman emperor has a second son

Would not Francis as the second son of Mary of Burgundy have a stronger claim to the Low Countries then his little nephew? Would not the burgundian courts want a adult in charge given the tumult that happened after Charles the Bold/Mary died?

Hmm, through the succession procedures, I don't think so, but if he's an adult then yes. Though, it depends on whether France is threatening them
 
Sorry major/minor error, Margaret was OTL queen of Scotland. I'm really pushing for her, she wasn't engaged until 1502. I think Henry VII in keeping with his alliance with Maximilian could possibly arrange for this. Maximilian helped induce the papacy to threaten excommunication of any potential usurpers for Henry VIII throne.
However, Henry VIII did have long standing plans for a Scottish marriage even before Margaret was born.
 
Sorry major/minor error, Margaret was OTL queen of Scotland. I'm really pushing for her, she wasn't engaged until 1502. I think Henry VII in keeping with his alliance with Maximilian could possibly arrange for this. Maximilian helped induce the papacy to threaten excommunication of any potential usurpers for Henry VIII throne.
However, Henry VIII did have long standing plans for a Scottish marriage even before Margaret was born.

Indeed he did, so, would you recommend Margaret, which might potentially mean a future Habsburg on the throne of England should things there go as otl. Though wouldn't Elizabeth Jagellion produce something akin to a solid base within Hungary etc, should such a need arise?
 
Hmm, through the succession procedures, I don't think so, but if he's an adult then yes. Though, it depends on whether France is threatening them

I think they all had male preference primogeniture at this point. Plus Charles was raised in Ghent by locals, his aunt Margaret and under the influence of William of Croy. Unless the threat is just downright overwhelming I really don't seem them deposing him in favour of his uncle.
 
I think they all had male preference primogeniture at this point. Plus Charles was raised in Ghent by locals, his aunt Margaret and under the influence of William of Croy. Unless the threat is just downright overwhelming I really don't seem them deposing him in favour of his uncle.

This is true, would the succession be distributed with Francis getting the Empire and Austria, Charles getting the Low COuntries, and Ferdinand Spain, or would Charles being the older son get Spain and Ferdinand the Low Countries?
 
Indeed he did, so, would you recommend Margaret, which might potentially mean a future Habsburg on the throne of England should things there go as otl. Though wouldn't Elizabeth Jagellion produce something akin to a solid base within Hungary etc, should such a need arise?

It could, I honestly don't like the idea of a Habsburg in England though. ATL Mary daughter of Henry VIII could marry into Scotland and we'd still have the House of Stuart.

Elisabeth of Jagiellon really depends on the timing which is why I think Margaret is easier to arrange for. Habsburg-Jagiellon relations were really wishy washy from the death of Albert II until the arrangement between Max & the Jagiellons. Frederick III as I understand it felt slighted that he hadn't been elected King of Bohemia & Hungary. He actively sought alliances with Muscovy to contain the Jagiellon block, which Max maintained when he ascended in 1493 until 1514/15.

Peace wouldn't be made between the 2 families until 1514/1515. Francis would be 34, I doubt Max would wait that long to arrange something for a potential heir to his Austrian dominions.

I just think a childhood arrangement for Margaret + Francis would've been easier and would likely have been consummated by 1505.
 
It could, I honestly don't like the idea of a Habsburg in England though. ATL Mary daughter of Henry VIII could marry into Scotland and we'd still have the House of Stuart.

Elisabeth of Jagiellon really depends on the timing which is why I think Margaret is easier to arrange for. Habsburg-Jagiellon relations were really wishy washy from the death of Albert II until the arrangement between Max & the Jagiellons. Frederick III as I understand it felt slighted that he hadn't been elected King of Bohemia & Hungary. He actively sought alliances with Muscovy to contain the Jagiellon block, which Max maintained when he ascended in 1493 until 1514/15.

Peace wouldn't be made between the 2 families until 1514/1515. Francis would be 34, I doubt Max would wait that long to arrange something for a potential heir to his Austrian dominions.

I just think a childhood arrangement for Margaret + Francis would've been easier and would likely have been consummated by 1505.

Alright that does make sense, who else is there for Francis to marry if Margaret for whatever reason isn't available? (I might be planning the death of the Tudors in this, or the survival of the Plantagenets)
 
This is true, would the succession be distributed with Francis getting the Empire and Austria, Charles getting the Low COuntries, and Ferdinand Spain, or would Charles being the older son get Spain and Ferdinand the Low Countries?

I don't see any reason for Charles to give Ferdinand anything, at least initially. They didn't grow up together, Ferdinand of Aragon tried to bypass Charles and give his holdings to Ferdinand, Charles's Flemish advisors convinced him to send Ferdinand away pretty much as soon as Charles arrived in Spain etc

Charles was 1st in line to all his holdings, and the legal parent heir with the power to divide them is either dead (philip for the low countries) or considered insane (Joana for spain). He isn't emperor now so he might marry earlier to Isabella of Portugal, the need for the English alliance isn't really there if Francis of Austria married Margaret of Tudor; and Catherine is married to Henry VIII so William of Croy can't convince Charles to break off Charles & Isabella that was arranged by his grandparents and the marriage soothe the Cortes. Charles likely has more sons and gives the younger one the low countries
 
I don't see any reason for Charles to give Ferdinand anything, at least initially. They didn't grow up together, Ferdinand of Aragon tried to bypass Charles and give his holdings to Ferdinand, Charles's Flemish advisors convinced him to send Ferdinand away pretty much as soon as Charles arrived in Spain etc

Charles was 1st in line to all his holdings, and the legal parent heir with the power to divide them is either dead (philip for the low countries) or considered insane (Joana for spain). He isn't emperor now so he might marry earlier to Isabella of Portugal, the need for the English alliance isn't really there if Francis of Austria married Margaret of Tudor; and Catherine is married to Henry VIII so William of Croy can't convince Charles to break off Charles & Isabella that was arranged by his grandparents and the marriage soothe the Cortes. Charles likely has more sons and gives the younger one the low countries

Hmm interesting, in which case does Ferdinand remain an administrator for the low countries, or simply join the church?
 
Anna does not sound that appealing actually. Bona would be fun, but perhaps to young.

How about Elizabeth of Denmark b 1485?
 
It could, I honestly don't like the idea of a Habsburg in England though. ATL Mary daughter of Henry VIII could marry into Scotland and we'd still have the House of Stuart.

Elisabeth of Jagiellon really depends on the timing which is why I think Margaret is easier to arrange for. Habsburg-Jagiellon relations were really wishy washy from the death of Albert II until the arrangement between Max & the Jagiellons. Frederick III as I understand it felt slighted that he hadn't been elected King of Bohemia & Hungary. He actively sought alliances with Muscovy to contain the Jagiellon block, which Max maintained when he ascended in 1493 until 1514/15.

Peace wouldn't be made between the 2 families until 1514/1515. Francis would be 34, I doubt Max would wait that long to arrange something for a potential heir to his Austrian dominions.

I just think a childhood arrangement for Margaret + Francis would've been easier and would likely have been consummated by 1505.

Sigismund and Vladislaus wanted Elizabeth to marry Maximilian in 1511, just after death of Bianca. Also, Vladislaus agreed for marriage of his daughter to Max' grandson in 1505. Sigismund was not anti-Habsburg from begining of his reign, only Habsburg support to Teutonic Order caused him to shift his policy so he allied with anti-Habsburg Zapolya family (against will of his brother) and married Barbara Zapolya in 1512.
 
If Francis marries Elizabeth of Denmark, then Danish marriage of Isabella of Austria (OK, let's say butterfly net works and next generation of Habsburgs is unchanged) is unnecessary, so Max has one spare grandaughter, whom he could marry to Sigismund I (IOTL he proposed Eleanor initially, but due to fact she was promised to Portuguese King he quickly widthrew proposition, Sigismund was interested in such marriage OTOH), alternatively Sigi could marry Francis' daughter if he had one born around 1500.
 
If Francis marries Elizabeth of Denmark, then Danish marriage of Isabella of Austria (OK, let's say butterfly net works and next generation of Habsburgs is unchanged) is unnecessary, so Max has one spare grandaughter, whom he could marry to Sigismund I (IOTL he proposed Eleanor initially, but due to fact she was promised to Portuguese King he quickly widthrew proposition, Sigismund was interested in such marriage OTOH), alternatively Sigi could marry Francis' daughter if he had one born around 1500.

Hmm that works for me, daughter of the Emperor versus sister of the King
 
Even when Philip had lived Francis would still be a attractive price for Elizabeth of Denmark. Given how large the hapsburg inheritance were Francis would have been a archduke and most likely designated governour of certain regions, perhaps austria, so not a loss after all. Second sons mattered too in imperial families.
 
Even when Philip had lived Francis would still be a attractive price for Elizabeth of Denmark. Given how large the hapsburg inheritance were Francis would have been a archduke and most likely designated governour of certain regions, perhaps austria, so not a loss after all. Second sons mattered too in imperial families.
#secondsonsmatter
 
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