Maximal Islamic Expansion

Well, how long would that caliphate remain united? Wouldn't such a huge country simply break up, like with the Fitnae?

(Sorry, I just had to Latinise that Arab word; that wouldn't even be far-fetched in a Muslim-dominated world)

Please don't ? I'm sorry but that just sounds.... weird....

Why?

Plenty of Arab names and loanwords were Latinized in western Europe during the High and Late Medieval Ages.

And in a Muslim-dominated world like this, one might even see some local Muslim state adopt and promote post-Roman culture and a Romance language, just like the Samanids did with the Persian language and culture.
 
Why?

Plenty of Arab names and loanwords were Latinized in western Europe during the High and Late Medieval Ages.

And in a Muslim-dominated world like this, one might even see some local Muslim state adopt and promote post-Roman culture and a Romance language, just like the Samanids did with the Persian language and culture.

Maybe, but not Fitnae.... I don't know... just maybe me who's personally can't fit up with the version, I think.... :noexpression: Nevermind.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
And in a Muslim-dominated world like this, one might even see some local Muslim state adopt and promote post-Roman culture and a Romance language, just like the Samanids did with the Persian language and culture.
We might very well see something like that in al-Ifrangiyya, perhaps even a literary standard based upon Mozarabic.

But as far as I'm concerned the Muslim world in the West did adopt and promote post-Roman culture. As soon as the Arabs were out of the peninsula, it pretty much went back to the way things were before, and the centers of control moved to the former territories of the Byzantine and Sasanid empires. From that point on, Islam became very much a product of the late Roman period, and many of the things that we associate culturally with Islam (architecture, systems of government, and the like) are directly adopted from late Roman / Byzantine culture.
 

Keenir

Banned
I tisn't likely, in my opinion, that the Caliphate would have been able to extend much further - in all the areas it had conquered previously, there was some group that rose up against the ruling powers and invited them in. In the Franking Kingdom and the Byzantine Empire, there is very little internal strife.

wha?

okay, maybe wait for the fight over succession, then offer your armies to one of the heir-contenders.
 
I tisn't likely, in my opinion, that the Caliphate would have been able to extend much further - in all the areas it had conquered previously, there was some group that rose up against the ruling powers and invited them in. In the Franking Kingdom and the Byzantine Empire, there is very little internal strife.

They were defeated militarily.

Well, how long would that caliphate remain united? Wouldn't such a huge country simply break up, like with the Fitnae?

Of course. I mentioned that in the OP.
 
I don't believe that the Caliphate wouldn't have taken Cyprus and at least Southern part of Greece.

I didn't think the Caliphate would want Cyprus. Cyprus wasn't conquered by Muslim powers until the 10th century in OTL. I figured the Caliphate wouldn't conquer early since they conquered better areas. The infallible wiki says Cyprus was a co-dominion of the Caliphate and the Byzantine Empire from late 7th-late 10th centuries. So I don't know.

I seriously don't think the Caliphate would take Greece though.
 
Well, not quite... but it would certainly move it to "marginal at best."

...Islam VS Lithuanian Paganism! :eek::D

......Why don't we have more Lithuanian Paganism TLs? :(

1) coolness beyond comprehension :eek: :D

2) I am too lazy / have too little time to write one, and we don't seem to have any other Lithuanians / Lithuanophiles on the board :D I might do one some day, possibly as an extention of the CK AAR I am currently writing (slowly) in the Paradox forums.

By the way, why does no-one consider the possibility of Caliphate expansion through the Caucasus / across the Black sea? Would that be too difficult? If Anatolia is conquered, someone might become interested in the sparsely inhabited fertile steppes of the lower Dniepr, wouldn't they? Not necessarily the Caliphate per se, but maybe some split-off group, or a large group of religious exiles (I am sure there were many of those, but don't know any details). This could actually allow for a Lithuanian* Pagan vs. Muslim (Shiite maybe?) confrontation even though most of Europe would stay Christian. Orthodoxy would be screwed and constrained to the Balkans though.

*Not necessarily Lithuanian, maybe some other Baltic country. Or maybe even the Viking states to the north. Holmgard (Viking Rus) vs. Baltic Rus vs. Shiite Rus :eek:
 
By the way, why does no-one consider the possibility of Caliphate expansion through the Caucasus / across the Black sea? Would that be too difficult? If Anatolia is conquered, someone might become interested in the sparsely inhabited fertile steppes of the lower Dniepr, wouldn't they?

The Caliphate had two good reasons not to expand too deep into the Caucasus; the first reason is the presence of a great number of fierce and almost uncontrollable Caucasian tribes, such as the Lezghins, Darghins, Caucasian Avars, Vainakhs, Circassians and Alans.

And the second reason is the strong presence of the Khazars in the steppes and plains north of the Greater Caucasus.

And not only would any Arab campaign to conquer the Caucasian tribes and/or the Khazar empire be borderline suicidal - it would also be a very costly and difficult campaign for minimal gain.
 
I tisn't likely, in my opinion, that the Caliphate would have been able to extend much further - in all the areas it had conquered previously, there was some group that rose up against the ruling powers and invited them in. In the Franking Kingdom and the Byzantine Empire, there is very little internal strife.

That's not true at all. In any case, they came pretty close to destroying the Byzantines - and without Constantinople, there is really nothing of note to resist in the Balkans except the Avars, who have no staying power.

The divisions of the feudal Frankish kingdom could be easily exploited by a Caliphate that has won military victories and controls trade. I would agree that expansion is much more problemmatic there due to distance and heavier population, but on the Eastern end of things, the Fall of Constantinople would leave all of Southeastern Europe exposed and probably lead to Muslim Russia as well.
 
I didn't think the Caliphate would want Cyprus. Cyprus wasn't conquered by Muslim powers until the 10th century in OTL. I figured the Caliphate wouldn't conquer early since they conquered better areas. The infallible wiki says Cyprus was a co-dominion of the Caliphate and the Byzantine Empire from late 7th-late 10th centuries. So I don't know.

I seriously don't think the Caliphate would take Greece though.

I don't understand your reasoning here. If the Byzantine Empire is destroyed, they will get Cyprus by default. And the Balkans would be so easy to conquer it just doesn't make sense not to.
 
I don't understand your reasoning here. If the Byzantine Empire is destroyed, they will get Cyprus by default. And the Balkans would be so easy to conquer it just doesn't make sense not to.

The map is supposed to be around 750 CE. They will get Cyprus, I just don't know if they would have it by the time of the map. Sorry, I wasn't clearer. The map was just a quick one to show what the bigger caliphate would look like.

Anyone have more ideas about the timeline?
 
The Caliphate had two good reasons not to expand too deep into the Caucasus; the first reason is the presence of a great number of fierce and almost uncontrollable Caucasian tribes, such as the Lezghins, Darghins, Caucasian Avars, Vainakhs, Circassians and Alans.

And the second reason is the strong presence of the Khazars in the steppes and plains north of the Greater Caucasus.

And not only would any Arab campaign to conquer the Caucasian tribes and/or the Khazar empire be borderline suicidal - it would also be a very costly and difficult campaign for minimal gain.

And yet most of the Caucasians adopted Islam. This isn't "maximal Caliphate", it's maximal Islam. Without a counterbalancing Byzantium I see Russia going Muslim. After the initial push Islam spread mostly non-violently through trade and sufi evangelism.
 
And yet most of the Caucasians adopted Islam. This isn't "maximal Caliphate", it's maximal Islam. Without a counterbalancing Byzantium I see Russia going Muslim. After the initial push Islam spread mostly non-violently through trade and sufi evangelism.

Read the post I was commenting on;

By the way, why does no-one consider the possibility of Caliphate expansion through the Caucasus / across the Black sea?

Legolas was very much talking about expansion of the Caliphate into the Caucasus and further north.
 
It would be difficult, but it could be done. If Constantinople has fallen, the Caucasus are outflanked and the statelets there can't exploit the three-way struggle surrounding them.

Read the post I was commenting on;



Legolas was very much talking about expansion of the Caliphate into the Caucasus and further north.
 
Depending on the timing as to how likely but if Byzantium falls then the Khazar reason for adopting Judaism, as a balancing point between the two main religions. Under those circumstances I could foresee the kingdom developing at least a strong Muslim faction and probably being converted, one was or another pretty quickly. That would open much of the Eurasian steppes to conquest/conversion even earlier.

Steve
 
The world in 1250 CE

Dark green is Muslim ruled. Ignore everything else.

The_world_in_1250_CE.jpg
 
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