Materialist World

[Elidor]

How can we get materialism to be the dominant metaphysical view before modern times? At the very least, this would imply rejection of an eternal soul or an afterlife, though it need not be completely atheistic (although atheism seems a very logical conclusion)

One way I see this happening is have Early Buddhism go in that direction, but than only takes care of the Eastern World. What materialistic philosophy can take hold in the West before Platonism got popular?

 

[Nerdlinger]

How can we get materialism to be the dominant metaphysical view before modern times? At the very least, this would imply rejection of an eternal soul or an afterlife, though it need not be completely atheistic (although atheism seems a very logical conclusion)

One way I see this happening is have Early Buddhism go in that direction, but than only takes care of the Eastern World. What materialistic philosophy can take hold in the West before Platonism got popular?

That's a toughie. The absence of the Abrahamic religions might help, but some other anti-materialist mythology(-ies) would probably replace them.

Atheism may be logical, but unfortunately, people often aren't.

 

[MNP]

That's a toughie. The absence of the Abrahamic religions might help, but some other anti-materialist mythology(-ies) would probably replace them.

Atheism may be logical, but unfortunately, people often aren't.

Well death is scary. Why wouldn't it be logical, if you don't know, to posit some sort of afterlife so you don't really die? All things being equal, it's much more comforting to believe that you are partially immortal than that you're a determinist bundle of chemicals and elements.

 

[Riain]

To have materialism dominant then you need more material, the religious adoration of poverty made virtue of reality. So the basis would be more productive agriculture earlier, producing more surplus to generate more wealth to aspire to.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Well death is scary.

MNPundit,

True, but part of being an adult is facing your fears and not making excuses for them.

Why wouldn't it be logical, if you don't know, to posit some sort of afterlife so you don't really die?

Making up a fairy tale to avoid facing reality? No, that wouldn't be logical. It would be human however.

All things being equal, it's much more comforting to believe that you are partially immortal than that you're a determinist bundle of chemicals and elements.

Comfort is for children. Adults face and accept reality.


Bill

 

[Nietzsche]

To have materialism dominant then you need more material, the religious adoration of poverty made virtue of reality. So the basis would be more productive agriculture earlier, producing more surplus to generate more wealth to aspire to.

That isn't true of all faiths, only the Abrahamic ones. The Norse put a high value on material things, so high that you were to be burned with them as you were given to Odin.

 

[Elidor]

Well, it is hard but not that hard. I mean, not all people readily accepted metaphysical fairy tales. Sure their rulers and priests wanted everybody to think that they all their neighbors believed the same, but I'm guessing that even a humble caveman had an ability to call bullshit. But we simply never know of his dissent-- because personal reality and social reality are different. And in societies where dogma wasn't being force-fed, there were intellectual expressions of materialism that had broad popular support among all parts of society-- from people who had privately called bullshit much earlier.

In short, the market did exist, but the product was banned, instead of there being no market at all. We just need a case where it doesn't get banned due to its sheer volume.

I think that Carvaka in India came the closest, since it was actively being debated for centuries after it was established as a tradition-- but it remained "academic", rather than populist in orientation (a problem with non-religious philosophy in general, and even today). Maybe we can somehow tie his philosophy to the growing merchant class.

 

[MNP]

MNPundit,

True, but part of being an adult is facing your fears and not making excuses for them.



Making up a fairy tale to avoid facing reality? No, that wouldn't be logical. It would be human however.



Comfort is for children. Adults face and accept reality.


Bill

So no one before 1700 was adults? I hardly call failure to espouse pure materialism and believe alternatives a character flaw.

 

[Bill Cameron]

So no one before 1700 was adults? I hardly call failure to espouse pure materialism and believe alternatives a character flaw.

MNPundit,

As has been already pointed out in this thread, there are and have been other non-Abrahamic faiths which are either materialistic or quasi-materialistic and they could have led to a more widely held rational world view much earlier than has been seen in the OTL.

Please try to look beyond your particular faith "brand". There are and have been many more different religions and different religious systems than the three Abrahamic "siblings". Right now, billions of human beings follow non-Abrahamic faiths with the same righteous fervor that Christians, Jews, and Muslims lavish on their own brands of comforting reality avoidance.

All religions are equally silly, equally sad, and equally human.


Bill

 

[mowque]

All religions are equally silly, equally sad, and equally human.

I'd argue this is an over-simplification.

 

[Nerdlinger]

I'd argue this is an over-simplification.

In Bill's defense, all religions are based on an equal amount of evidence. Are they thus not equally valid?

 

[dreadnought jenkins]

In Bill's defense, all religions are based on an equal amount of evidence. Are they thus not equally valid?

Yes, they are all amazingly valuable.

 

[Venusian Si]

I'd argue this is an over-simplification.

Agreed.

Comfort is for children. Adults face and accept reality.

It's a shame that so few biological adults accept reality. In any case, comfort is for everyone, and it certaintly doesn't have to be in the form of religion or be in a form that contradicts logic.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Yes, they are all amazingly valuable.

Dreadnought,

That's very true. As methods of social control religion has been part of man's cultural tool kit since... well... since man evolved.

Religions are human constructs, nothing more. They exist because humans have had, do have, and will have a need for them. There were uncounted religions before the few Abrahamic versions evolved, there are many non-Abrahamic religions today, and we've seen new religions evolve since.

The Abrahamic versions conceit that their view is the one "true' or "only" view is nothing exactly new. Other religions have claimed that before and others will claim it in the future. The extremes that Abrahamic versions go to to "ensure" or "prove" that their views are correct are nothing exactly new either, we're just more familiar with the consequences of those actions.

If this board were hosted in India and had a majority Hindu membership, the claims and defenses routinely posted our more vocal Christians would seem very odd and very out of place within that Hindu-majority board's "cultural consensus" just as a Hindu religious viewpoint would seem very odd and very out of place on this Abrahamic-majority board.

All religions have always claimed to know the "truth" or significant portions of it. All religions will always claim to know the "truth" or significant portions of it. Boasting that your particular version in this time and place is somehow more "correct" than that of a 2nd Century CE follower of Mithra, a 3rd Century BCE follower of Zoroaster, or a modern day follower Hinduism, Shintoism, or the thousands of other existing religions is both laughable and sad.

Humanity's beliefs have always been and will always be much more varied than the narrow range of options "allowed" within the Abrahamic mindset.

Please pray in whichever way you wish and please don't attempt to tell me your beliefs are logical.


Bill

 

[mowque]

In Bill's defense, all religions are based on an equal amount of evidence. Are they thus not equally valid?

I suppose in that sense. I was arguing the larger point.

 

[Bill Cameron]

In any case, comfort is for everyone, and it certaintly doesn't have to be in the form of religion.

"Venusian Si",

By "comfort", I was referring to the type of comfort MNPundit specifically mentioned: comfort in the face of our inevitable death.

Please believe anything you want and please don't expect me to agree that all your beliefs are logical.


Bill

 

[loneranger]

"Venusian Si",

By "comfort", I was referring to the type of comfort MNPundit specifically mentioned: comfort in the face of our inevitable death.

Please believe anything you want and please don't expect me to agree that all your beliefs are logical.


Bill

Bill

Because inventing "missing links" from bones found miles apart from each other or postulating theorems that you do not have to prove because "it won't happen in our life time" is also as equally logical as what you call a "laughable and sad" religion? Seems the pot is calling the kettle black...

James

 

[Mirza Khan]

MNPundit,

True, but part of being an adult is facing your fears and not making excuses for them.



Making up a fairy tale to avoid facing reality? No, that wouldn't be logical. It would be human however.



Comfort is for children. Adults face and accept reality.


Bill

So me, and every other Christian (or Jew, or Muslim, or Hindu, or whatever) is a child who refuses to face reality. Wow, what a very adult thing to say

Their are many rational arguments to make for atheism, but calling theists "children" is not one of them.

Reported.

 

[Venusian Si]

Please believe anything you want and please don't expect me to agree that all your beliefs are logical.

Well, I don't believe in anything supernatural, but thank you.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Their are many rational arguments to make for atheism, but calling theists "children" is not one of them.

Mirza,

Once again, that post was made in reference to MNPundit's specific example regarding the fear of death.

Religion is just one of many ways people avoid their inevitable mortality.

Reported.

Please report away because I did not call theists children.

I'll state this again before all the various theists here join the pig pile. Please believe in anything you want and please don't expect me to agree that your beliefs are logical.

I am not attacking your religions.


Bill