Matches for the Tudor princesses

The let Alençon marry Suzanne was a my proposal and I always said to let Montpensier living as condition for that match... If both Louis of Montpensier and Duke Peter die as OTL (or before Suzanne is already married off) no way who Suzanne marry anyone than the brother of her first fiancé.

We were talking about a match between Henry, still Duke of York and Marguerite as the Spanish matches (Katherine first and Eleanor after Isabella’s death) are better for the Prince of Wales... or a longer living Henry VII who will consent to have Henry VIII marrying Eleanor...

About Marguerite and Louis of Montpensier my point was who he was a bad match for the sister of the probable future King of France as Marguerite sure would be a lot attractive for him but Anne of Beaujeu and Louis XII would be strongly against that match and the Duke of York a much more interesting prospective.

I actually think we agree on most of the above:

The issue for me, and I think you would agree, is that the Anjouleme marriage for the Duke of York only works if it is actually going to happen before Arthur's death but given Henry was only ten when Arthur dies it is unlikely (given both were well under the legal age). If Arthur lives another three or four years then it might be doable but there is a chance that Katherine and Arthur have a child which reduces Henry's attractiveness internationally and France might not be as keen on the match to a second son.

For me with the exception of Louise of Savoy's offer the French didn't seem particularly keen during this period on an Anglo-French marriage and Louis XII clearly though Henry VII didn't need any added incentives to maintain a peaceful relationship.

For a match to happen I do think you need a completely different set of political circumstances that would force one side or the other into a match.
 
Fair point.
2a) Margaret (b. 1489 - d. 1541) m. a) James IV of Scotland (b. 1473 - d. 1523); b) ?
1a) James, Duke of Rothesay (b. 1507 - d. 1508)
2a) Margaret (b. 1508 - d. 1508)
3a) Arthur, Duke of Rothesay (b. 1509 - d. 1510)
4a) Elizabeth (b. 1509 - d. 1510)
5a) James V (b. 1512 - d. 1542)
6a) Katherine (b. 1512 - d. 1512)
7a) Alexander, Duke of Ross (b. 1514 - d. 1552)
8a) Mary (b. 1515 - d. 1518)
9a) John, Earl of Mar (b. 1516 - d. 1562)
10a) Frederick (b. 1517 - d. 1517)
11a) Cecily (b. 1518 - d. 1567)​

tweaked things a little - Mary dies age three and Frederick lives less than a year. (Yes, I killed off Frederick rather than Alexander or John so as to not have to figure out a title for him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)



I'm aware. I think Henri/Katherine and Christian/Elizabeth are not implausible matches though since England doesn't have the level of international prestige and power that it will gain under Elizabeth and subsequent monarchs.

Henry VII had spent his time abroad and fighting for his throne supported by France and its vassals. He wasn't interesting in regaining the former French territories lost by the English but he also wanted to ensure the French didn't support pretenders such as Perkin Warbeck (as indeed, Edward IV's sister, Margaret, Duchess of Burgundy did). The marriages between Arthur/Catherine and Margaret/James were meant to break the Auld Alliance and keep France from being able to mess around with England.

Admittedly Elizabeth/Christian doesn't help that but nor does it harm it. Henry also didn't have two more daughters as bargaining chips in OTL, but the fact that Mary was betrothed to Charles V when he died indicates to me that he wanted to maintain a positive relationship with Spain even without Henry VIII marrying Catherine (which I think he in fact did not want. Yes, Henry VIII claimed his father told him to marry Catherine on his deathbed but dead men tell no tales and it was conveniently what Henry himself wanted to do).

Henry VIII OTL fluctuated between a pro-French or pro-Spanish policy (which fucked him over when they signed a peace treaty without him). I don't see that Mary/Antoine and Katherine/Henri couldn't be seen as part of fluctuations also. True, a match with the Duke of Lorraine is more likely after the death of Louis XII (assuming Brandon doesn't muck things up) if Henry is not married to Marguerite or instead of Louis if Henry marries Marguerite.

Navarre is not a big power but located where it is, the match between Henri and Katherine sends a message to both France and Spain about not messing with England. Instead of jewels or gold, Katherine might be sent with a dowry of soldiers (as @FalconHonour wrote in White Flowers of England (though not Katherine in that case but Henry and Marguerite’s daughter Elizabeth).

Well that might be difficult given England has no standing army at this period and any English support for the King of Navarre is going to need French support an alliance with France and a ton of money to pay said soldiers (which means Henry will have to go begging to Parliament for cash to back an alliance with the traditional enemy) and will mean war with Spain and the Empire - I can't see Charles V simply watching it happen. It might be a crown but its an empty one.

Again to get the matches people have suggested means a political change and a slight increase in English influence and prestige abroad.

England in OTL - 1501 to 9 - Henry VII keeps friendly relations with most of Europe - he neutralises Scotland as a threat with peace treaty and a marriage, he pursues a marriage policy allying his family with Spain and the Hapsburgs.
Henry to Catherine/Eleanor
Mary to Charles V

Henry VIII from 1509 to 1513 continued that policy
Initially allied with France and Spain - then joined the Holy League against France in 1511/12 - Scotland breaks peace with England and Henry then runs out of money and makes peace with France and his sister is married to the widowed Louis XII.
Peace between all until 1521 when Henry supports Charles V against Francis - Henry again makes peace with France having gained nothing in 1525.

So marriage alliances made during this period have to fit the international relationships and circumstances that existed at the time or you have to change those alliances and circumstances.
 
I think Henri/Katherine and Christian/Elizabeth are not implausible matches though since England doesn't have the level of international prestige and power that it will gain under Elizabeth and subsequent monarchs.

Henry VII had spent his time abroad and fighting for his throne supported by France and its vassals. He wasn't interesting in regaining the former French territories lost by the English but he also wanted to ensure the French didn't support pretenders such as Perkin Warbeck (as indeed, Edward IV's sister, Margaret, Duchess of Burgundy did). The marriages between Arthur/Catherine and Margaret/James were meant to break the Auld Alliance and keep France from being able to mess around with England.

Admittedly Elizabeth/Christian doesn't help that but nor does it harm it. Henry also didn't have two more daughters as bargaining chips in OTL, but the fact that Mary was betrothed to Charles V when he died indicates to me that he wanted to maintain a positive relationship with Spain even without Henry VIII marrying Catherine (which I think he in fact did not want. Yes, Henry VIII claimed his father told him to marry Catherine on his deathbed but dead men tell no tales and it was conveniently what Henry himself wanted to do).

Henry VIII OTL fluctuated between a pro-French or pro-Spanish policy (which fucked him over when they signed a peace treaty without him). I don't see that Mary/Antoine and Katherine/Henri couldn't be seen as part of fluctuations also. True, a match with the Duke of Lorraine is more likely after the death of Louis XII (assuming Brandon doesn't muck things up) if Henry is not married to Marguerite or instead of Louis if Henry marries Marguerite.

Navarre is not a big power but located where it is, the match between Henri and Katherine sends a message to both France and Spain about not messing with England. Instead of jewels or gold, Katherine might be sent with a dowry of soldiers (as @FalconHonour wrote in White Flowers of England (though not Katherine in that case but Henry and Marguerite’s daughter Elizabeth).

Well, Henry VII’s interest in keeping good relationship with Spain is proved by more than the match between Mary and Charles as Katherine’s replacement as bride-to-be of Henry VIII was her niece Eleanor of Austria (elder sister of Charles and so eldest daughter of Juana with the same Lancastrian blood of Katherine, younger, with a bigger dowry and better connections as she will add Austria and Burgundy to Spain)
 
I actually think we agree on most of the above:

The issue for me, and I think you would agree, is that the Anjouleme marriage for the Duke of York only works if it is actually going to happen before Arthur's death but given Henry was only ten when Arthur dies it is unlikely (given both were well under the legal age). If Arthur lives another three or four years then it might be doable but there is a chance that Katherine and Arthur have a child which reduces Henry's attractiveness internationally and France might not be as keen on the match to a second son.

For me with the exception of Louise of Savoy's offer the French didn't seem particularly keen during this period on an Anglo-French marriage and Louis XII clearly though Henry VII didn't need any added incentives to maintain a peaceful relationship.

For a match to happen I do think you need a completely different set of political circumstances that would force one side or the other into a match.
I agree about the fact who the Angoulême’s match work for Henry, Duke of York and not Henry, Prince of Wales (as Eleanor of Austria is absolutely the best match available for the latter).
In any case, without Alençon, Marguerite will not have great prospects at home and the Duke of York is not a bad match for a girl who is still a junior member of the French royal family plus Arthur can very well be married to Catherine tree or four years without having children (as they were still young and is likely who they were not free to have much sexual relationships)
 
Link can be found here, if people are interested. I'll be interested to know what you all think, it's a very different writing style to my usual one...
Wonderful fic but there is only one thing who do not work for me:
why you have sent Isabella of Wales in a convent? Was absolutely unnecessary as would have been much better keep her at court engaged (and then married) to her young cousin Charles. That way Henry is King but Isabella would have been Queen consort one day and her heirs would have ruled England...
 
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