Mary Tudor rules from 1547

Thoughts based off the discussion so far:

  • Mary is still gonna end up with Philip, if she can't marry the Emperor himself.
  • Any of the candidates not married to Mary is gonna be offered Elizabeth, and for the sake of what people have suggested in the chat, I'd probably go with the Duke of Beja. Keeps Portugal independent and gives Elizabeth something to do once Luis dies in 1555. If she's got children, she's gonna want them to rule.
  • Jane Grey might be offered outwards from England, but most likely she either marries an English Nobleman, or into Scotland, to secure that alliance. It might be funny if she ended up with Lord Darnley as part of a larger plan for Mary to influence Scotland, while also rewarding her faithful cousin.
  • Don Carlos is gonna end up married to Elisabeth of Valois (or another bride, depending on how the Spanish and French act towards each other. Say, if they marry in 1559, while Philip could theoretically be mourning Mary (maybe they're closer with the birth of children) then you could easily get a son by 1568.

Henry VIII of England (b.1491: d.1547) m. Catherine of Aragon (b.1485: d.1536) (a), Anne Boleyn (b.1501/1507: d.1536) (b), Jane Seymour (b.1508: d.1537) (c), Anne of Cleves (b.1515: d.1557) (d), Catherine Howard (b.1523: d.1542) (e), Catherine Howard (b.1512: d.1548) (f)

1a) Stillborn Girl (c.1510)

2a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1511: d.1511)

3a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1513: d.1513)

4a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1515: d.1515)

5a) Mary I of England (b.1516: d.1558) m. Philip II of Spain (b.1527: d.1598) (a)

1a) Henry IX of England, Sovereign of the Netherlands (b.1549)

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1550)

3a) Miscarriage (c.1552)

4a) Philip Tudor-Hapsburg, Duke of York (b.1554)​

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1518)

7b) Elizabeth Tudor (b.1533: d.1604) m. Luis of Portugal, Duke of Beja (b.1506: d.1555) (a)

1a) Joan of Beja (b.1550)

2a) Luis I of Portugal (b.1553)​

8b) Stillborn Son (c.1534)

9b) Miscarriage (c.1536)

10c) Edward Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1537: d.1546)​
 
Mary's Habsburg marriage and birth of heir will cause panic in France. Next Habsburg-Valois war is guaranted. With Philip being more than occasional guest in England English entry to the war from very start is likely and English actions would be better coordinated with Imperial ones. Also Habsburgs are not going to give up Calais if it is part of future inheritance of Habsburg prince. So France is likely more beaten than after OTL 1551-1558 war and has worse perspectives for the future with Habsburg encirclement from every side.
So if Mary of Scots is not in France and didn't married Dauphin yet, would she? Now when France is in similar situation as in 1520s? Valois marriage of MQOS means Scotland is thrown by default into Habsburg-Valois conflict on the weaker side, so in the case of another war Scotland is thrown under the Anglo-Habsburg bus.
 
I know this is stupid, @Kynan, and I understand the then obsession with a male heir, plus I sympathize with Mary (though not necessarily her actions), but could we see her popping out the Lady Katherine Tudor (she might go with Isabel after Felipe's mom, but the connotations of Elizabeth/Isabel might be too strong, or she does it out of spite - a TRUE Lady Elizabeth Tudor), who gets betrothed, for a time to Francois II or Charles IX while the Habsburgs and French are at peace? Katherine/Isabel doesn't HAVE to be heir, but a pigeon pair of kids for Mary would be nice.
 
Out of curiosity, I know that the Mary-Felipe marriage contract stipulated that any son of theirs would be given the Netherlands, but if they HAD a second son, and D. Carlos still died (without issue as OTL) would that duke of York be heir to the throne of Spain? Or would Felipe have to marry again in hopes of getting another son to inherit Spain?
 
I know this is stupid, @Kynan, and I understand the then obsession with a male heir, plus I sympathize with Mary (though not necessarily her actions), but could we see her popping out the Lady Katherine Tudor (she might go with Isabel after Felipe's mom, but the connotations of Elizabeth/Isabel might be too strong, or she does it out of spite - a TRUE Lady Elizabeth Tudor), who gets betrothed, for a time to Francois II or Charles IX while the Habsburgs and French are at peace? Katherine/Isabel doesn't HAVE to be heir, but a pigeon pair of kids for Mary would be nice.

I totally get that. I was just trying to keep everything pretty realistic, and from experience, some families have all one gendered kids (mine being one of them). But depending on the timeline, kids could be picked based off need. It's just, like, a demo.

Out of curiosity, I know that the Mary-Felipe marriage contract stipulated that any son of theirs would be given the Netherlands, but if they HAD a second son, and D. Carlos still died (without issue as OTL) would that duke of York be heir to the throne of Spain? Or would Felipe have to marry again in hopes of getting another son to inherit Spain?

That's a tough one, because the match between Philip and Mary hung on the fact that D. Carlos was healthy and going to inherit the throne. If they have two sons, I can definitely see Philip demanding the younger come to Madrid once it's obvious Carlos is not going to make it, but they will have to have the elder formally renounce his own claims to the throne, and most likely those claims of his descendants.
 
Out of curiosity, I know that the Mary-Felipe marriage contract stipulated that any son of theirs would be given the Netherlands, but if they HAD a second son, and D. Carlos still died (without issue as OTL) would that duke of York be heir to the throne of Spain? Or would Felipe have to marry again in hopes of getting another son to inherit Spain?
Would their eldest son not also have inherited the throne of England? Or is that so obvious as not to need mentioning?
 
Would their eldest son not also have inherited the throne of England? Or is that so obvious as not to need mentioning?

The marriage contract was that the Netherlandish inheritance would pass to the kids of Felipe and Mary (as a secondary split from the Habsburg inheritance), in addition to their English inheritance from their mom. That said, the marriage contract also (AFAIK) prohibited a union between England and Spain - i.e. if they'd only had one kid and D. Carlos died without issue, Felipe would need to remarry again, since England was fearful of becoming yet another appendage dangling from Spain's belt like Naples or Burgundy. Which is why I asked, in @Kynan's posited tree, with two sons, should D. Carlos die on schedule as scheduled (questionable here, since IDK if Felipe II would necessarily snake Élisabeth de Valois or Anna of Austria from him), would the duke of York succeed to the Spanish throne. Or would Felipe be required to marry again after Mary dies in order to shore up the Spanish succession.
 
If Philip and Mary have 2 sons, both healthly and married with kids I think question of Spanish succession could be easily renegotiated, younger one will renounce his rights to English throne to get Spanish one. Athough for simplicity I'd preffer just one son for them.
It is likely that don Carlos was sterile due to inbreed, but we'll never know it for sure. OTOH Mary without all stress she suffered during Edward's reign could live longer, at least 2-3 years. So Elizabeth of France is going to marry Carlos because Philip is not available.

My marriage plans for Habsburgs:
-Don Carlos marry Elizabeth Valois, dies childless.
-Marriage of Juana of Spain and João Manuel is delayed because Philip leaves for England earlier. As result João dies before wedding, Louis of Beja soon followed him, so Juana is going to marry next candidate in line, Duarte, Duke of Guimares (born 1540) nephew of king John III.
-After Mary's death during early 1560s Philip remarry with another Mary, Duarte's sister, OTL Duchess of Parma.
 
Mary's Habsburg marriage and birth of heir will cause panic in France. Next Habsburg-Valois war is guaranted. With Philip being more than occasional guest in England English entry to the war from very start is likely and English actions would be better coordinated with Imperial ones. Also Habsburgs are not going to give up Calais if it is part of future inheritance of Habsburg prince. So France is likely more beaten than after OTL 1551-1558 war and has worse perspectives for the future with Habsburg encirclement from every side.
So if Mary of Scots is not in France and didn't married Dauphin yet, would she? Now when France is in similar situation as in 1520s? Valois marriage of MQOS means Scotland is thrown by default into Habsburg-Valois conflict on the weaker side, so in the case of another war Scotland is thrown under the Anglo-Habsburg bus.

In the scenario you describe the Scots would be absolute fools to ally with the French, let alone marry their Queen to a Valois Prince. They've lost two Kings in less than thirty years due to the Auld Alliance and now their great enemy is directly married to the most powerful monarchy in Europe. No the Scottish Court's best bet
is to jettison the Auld Alliance and France completely. Now assuming this happens, the next move should be either a reconciliation with England or an alliance with Austria. If they go with England the likely candidate is Mary's OTL second husband, Henry, Lord Darnley. He's basically the closest thing England has to a Prince, being Mary I's only Paternal male relative, and due to his mother's close friendship with the Queen is the likely candidate. Plus he's half Scottish, his father being the 4th Earl of Lennox, so the Regents might be able to stomach it. Or, if not, then they should look to an Archduke, like OTL's Karl II of Inner Austria. A Habsburg consort would be a shield from English aggression, Mary being unlikely to wage war on her husband's brother-in-law (Karl's brother Maximilian was married to Felipe's sister Maria).

The marriage contract was that the Netherlandish inheritance would pass to the kids of Felipe and Mary (as a secondary split from the Habsburg inheritance), in addition to their English inheritance from their mom. That said, the marriage contract also (AFAIK) prohibited a union between England and Spain - i.e. if they'd only had one kid and D. Carlos died without issue, Felipe would need to remarry again, since England was fearful of becoming yet another appendage dangling from Spain's belt like Naples or Burgundy. Which is why I asked, in @Kynan's posited tree, with two sons, should D. Carlos die on schedule as scheduled (questionable here, since IDK if Felipe II would necessarily snake Élisabeth de Valois or Anna of Austria from him), would the duke of York succeed to the Spanish throne. Or would Felipe be required to marry again after Mary dies in order to shore up the Spanish succession.

Not true. In my biography of Mary I, The First Queen of England: The Myth of "Blood Mary" by Linda Porter, such a caveat is nowhere mentioned. In fact, it's stated that "In Spain and Italy, Don Carlos would become ruler, but if he died without children, any male heir of Mary and Philip would succeed in those lands as well as the emperor's in Burgundy and the Low Countries. If there was only a daughter of the marriage, she would rule both England and the Low Countries, but not elsewhere." Clearly Mary and Philip's male heirs had full rights to Spain and the Italian states. So if Carlos died childless his next brother would succeed him, either as Sovereign or heir, irregardless of him being King of England. In fact this is specifically spelled out in the actual Act of Parliament that dealt with Mary's marriage, Act for the Marriage of Queen Mary to Philip of Spain. Here's the relevant quote (I can link the entire act if you with) "....but if it fortune the same lord Charles to die, and the issue of his body to fail, then and in that case the eldest son of this matrimony shall be admitted into the said right, and according to the nature, laws and customs of the said realms and dominions shall succeed: the same eldest son shall also succeed in all the dukedoms, earldoms, dominions and patrimonial lands belonging unto the said lord the emperor, as well in Burgundy as in the lower Germany;...." That's the official Act of Parliament; if any ban on a personal union was included in the marriage treaty it would be in the Act.

Of course, with a 1546 POD it's by no means guaranteed that Carlos would die childless, though considering his delicate health, extreme cruelty, and mental disabilities (the first two where definitely before his 1562 fall down the stairs but am unsure if the last was caused by the fall or if it mere exasperated the preexisting issues) it's still quite likely. Now I could be wrong and Carlos could surprise us, assuming that the mental issues were caused by the fall. His health was delicate but it didn't get bad until a bout of Malaria at age 11, so that's easily butterflies here. He was extremely cruel and sadistic but so was the highly successful Ivan the Terrible. Finally, in OTL, his would-be wife and eventual Step-mother Elisabeth de Valois seemed to exercise a moderating influence over the troubled Infante, so she might be able to do so TTL, perhaps to a larger degree.

Something else to consider is just when Carlos dies (again assuming childless here).If it's before his stepmother, then there is the possibility that Mary and Felipe could play some musical thrones and make their eldest son heir to Spain and Italy and leave a second son to inherit England, Ireland and the Low Countries. However, if Mary is dead and her son is King, then I don't see him renouncing his rights to Spain and the Italian states. After all, there's no precedence in favor of such a decision and in fact Habsburg precedent would favor adding England and Ireland to the Spanish patrimony. So there would be the risk of a succession crisis or war if at Felipe II's death if he tried to forcefully disinherit his son the King of England.

Finally and this is just a thought, but I wonder if we could see a triple division of the Habsburg realms at Charles V's TTL abdication. OTL he gave everything to Felipe over two years but if he had an English grandson destined by treaty to inherit the Low Countries, then there's the possibility that he could go ahead and pass the Netherlands to the Prince of Wales. Not likely but just a thought.
 
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I wonder if with England as another Habsburg realm Habsburgs will finally exceede "critical mass" so there is no force capable to balance them. Especially if they gain another crown (Poland-Lithuania or Portugal). Anglo-Burgundian Habsburgs could renew old English claims to the French throne. Valois dynasty is in serious danger.
 
What about this option:
Mary and Philip have 2 surviving sons-Henry and Philip, after Mary's death in, say 1561 Henry became king of England. He married in 1567 to Anna of Austria, they have one surviving daughter-Mary, born in 1569. Henry IX dies in 1589 at age 40 leaving English throne to daughter and Netherlands to brother, who is already governor and de facto ruler of Burgundian Inheritance (and possible king of Spain if Philip II has no other surviving sons)
Meanwhile in Scotland-after crushing defeat of France in last Italian War plans of French marriage of MQOS are abandoned, pro-English fraction prevailed.
Mary of Scots is going to marry Henry Stewart, her OTL second husband. Their oldest son James marries young Queen of England Mary II Habsburg leading to union of British kingdoms.
So:
-England is no longer bound with Habsburg block.
-England is free from burden of rebelious Netherlands.
-Britain is united like IOTL and could focus on overseas expansion.
Possible?
 
What about this option:
Mary and Philip have 2 surviving sons-Henry and Philip, after Mary's death in, say 1561 Henry became king of England. He married in 1567 to Anna of Austria, they have one surviving daughter-Mary, born in 1569. Henry IX dies in 1589 at age 40 leaving English throne to daughter and Netherlands to brother, who is already governor and de facto ruler of Burgundian Inheritance (and possible king of Spain if Philip II has no other surviving sons)
Meanwhile in Scotland-after crushing defeat of France in last Italian War plans of French marriage of MQOS are abandoned, pro-English fraction prevailed.
Mary of Scots is going to marry Henry Stewart, her OTL second husband. Their oldest son James marries young Queen of England Mary II Habsburg leading to union of British kingdoms.
So:
-England is no longer bound with Habsburg block.
-England is free from burden of rebelious Netherlands.
-Britain is united like IOTL and could focus on overseas expansion.
Possible?

Wouldn't work, or at least not in the way you think. First, the Netherlands and England were to form a full union, a third component branch of the Habsburg dynasty. Dividing England and the Netherlands wouldn't make much sense, if the King would even consider such a decision. Second, in such a scenario Mary II would be heiress presumptive to Spain and Italy, or she should be following primogeniture if Carlos dies childless. It would go Carlos and his children, "Henry" and his children and THEN Philip. At the least it could be a massive Spanish succession war between Mary and James and her uncle if such a scenario happens.

If your aiming for a Union of the Crowns then the best bet (and most realistic, considering that James V was never considered for Mary I's hand. No way the English are going to hand their throne to the Scots if they can help it) is a double marriage between Mary I's children and Mary Queen of Scots' children. Then have the Duke of Rothesay die young, a la Henry Frederick, Prince of Wales and without a brother, leaving his sister as the heiress presumptive and married to the Prince of Wales. An accidental union to be sure but a bit more realistic. At least in my opinion
 
Catherine I
What about Philip and Mary having only surviving daughter? Any sons born from Philip's third marriage would have better rights to Spanish throne than her so even if Don Carlos is childless Anglo-Spanish union is not going to happen. She will be around 10 years old taking the throne, so not married yet-Philip would like to marry her to one of his Habsburg cousins (archduke Charles or one of Maximilian II's sons) before end of regency to keep England in Habsburg sphere?
 
Can I ask a question, I don't see it upthread, but I could've overlooked it:

Mary originally wanted to marry Karl V, but he decided he was too old and wanted peace and quiet, so he pushed Felipe forward instead. That was OTL in 1553/1554. But in 1547 he might be in a different frame of mind.
Also OTL Elizabeth was touted as a possible consort for the widowered Emperor Ferdinand I as soon as Anna Jagiellonika's body was suitably cold.
Might Mary be married to either emperor instead? I mean, with Ferdinand there's NO chance that England and the Empire would be in PU for anything more than the lifetime of either spouse. And even with Karl V, I would imagine that the marriage contract would be more or less the same, their kid gets Burgundy* to join with England.
 
Okay, Mary, Queen of Scots is already in France by the time Mary I of England's little Henry comes along. I don't think Marie of Guise will want to change an already-negotiated betrothal to her home country and, given Henry's luck with heirs, the Scots are going "She'll do as her father" and Mary weds the Dauphin, who dies in December 1560 and she returns to Scotland. At this point, the Scots are going to go for a union - but they want the coming KING, Henry. They want Mary's son/daughter to rule both countries. The marital contract will have separate governing councils while both live and while they'd would regent for their own child in the other country, they would not reign in that country. When both are dead, then England and Scotland are reigned by a single offspring, who will hopefully be an adult. (Ironically, a Tudor-Hapsburg) (And it sounds familiar to me because it's what I've done in "Henry dies in 1536", only James wed Mary instead of either French girl.....I bumped it up a generation on the Scottish side.)
 
Shades of Henry VIII with a twist: Instead of marrying an older Spanish Infanta, Henry weds an older Scottish QUEEN. He can go to Scotland and learn a bit about government, get involved with Calvinism and undo all his mom's work when he becomes king. :winkytongue::winkytongue: But by establishing religious tolerance instead of insisting every "do as I do".....
 
Shades of Henry VIII with a twist: Instead of marrying an older Spanish Infanta, Henry weds an older Scottish QUEEN. He can go to Scotland and learn a bit about government, get involved with Calvinism and undo all his mom's work when he becomes king. :winkytongue::winkytongue: But by establishing religious tolerane instead of insisting every "do as I do".....
So he would be rather Sigismund II Augustus "I don't want to be king of your consciences" Jagiellon than Henry VIII reborn ;)
 
Someone floated the idea of Mary allying with the French and possibly securing it with a marriage...

Is Mary trying to alienated her Earls? I think not.

Someone internal who supports the Catholic cause or maybe a Hapsburg seems likely.
 
To solve question of MQOS French marriage-if Mary Tudor takes the throne in 1548 instead (so there is short period of Eddie's rule) when Mary of Scots is already in France then her marriage to Dauphin is certain. But death of Henry II in freak accident is unlikely to happen ITTL-although last Valois were rather not long living so we can assume that Henry II still dies before his son and MQOS is still Queen of France at least for few months. Then widowed Mary returns to Scotland and few years later marries another king...
 
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