Mary Queen of Scots has a twin brother

[VVD0D95]

This was prompted by a discussion with @CaptainShadow .

Let's say that in 1542, instead of just having a daughter, Mary of Guise gives birth to twins, a boy who she names James, and a girl who is otl Mary, Queen of Scots.

Now, ttl James VI would become King immediately after his father's death, but what wider consequences are there?

James will be raised in Scotland and thus may well grow up with the violent experiences that come with the regency in Scotland, made particularly worse by the reformation that Scotland was undergoing at the time.

In terms of wider issues, I'm unsure what would happen with otl Mary Queen of Scots. She's not an heiress here so I can't see the French demanding her as a bride particularly. Nor can I see there being an equivalent of the Treaty of Greenwich here as Henry doesn't have a daughter of an age with James to offer. Though he may offer Liz for the lols.

Possible brides I could see for James are Claude of France or Johanna of Austria, assuming that they're both available.

Further down the line, assuming some things go as otl, I could see Philip of Spain backing James for England, if he's married to Johanna of Austria.

Any other possible consequences?

 

[HortenseMancini]

I think TTL James VI is likely to have some protestant leanings if he is raised in scotland...not that mary of guise wouldn't try to stamp it out, but i think it would happen anyways.

 

[VVD0D95]

I think TTL James VI is likely to have some protestant leanings if he is raised in scotland...not that mary of guise wouldn't try to stamp it out, but i think it would happen anyways.

Agreed, especially if his half brother Moray has anything to do with his upbringing, which given the chaos Scotland usually descends into during a regency, he might well do. Perhaps less presbyterian and more Anglican, if Moray sticks with his initial leanings.

 

[HortenseMancini]

Agreed, especially if his half brother Moray has anything to do with his upbringing, which given the chaos Scotland usually descends into during a regency, he might well do. Perhaps less presbyterian and more Anglican, if Moray sticks with his initial leanings.

i wonder if moray would have anything to do with it though. he's only ten years older than the young king so by the time that moray could even take custody james would be at least 7/8/9 years old. his formative religious experiences would already have taken place.

 

[VVD0D95]

i wonder if moray would have anything to do with it though. he's only ten years older than the young king so by the time that moray could even take custody james would be at least 7/8/9 years old. his formative religious experiences would already have taken place.

Hmm this is true, which does make me think then that Cardinal Beaton and Mary of Guise might try and shape him as quickly as possible

 

[HortenseMancini]

Hmm this is true, which does make me think then that Cardinal Beaton and Mary of Guise might try and shape him as quickly as possible

Absolutely. i mean, mary did remain catholic for a reason iotl.

 

[HortenseMancini]

if james does go protestant though, it's going to be hard (damn near impossible, i would say) for him to get a habsburg wife.

 

[VVD0D95]

Absolutely. i mean, mary did remain catholic for a reason iotl.

if james does go protestant though, it's going to be hard (damn near impossible, i would say) for him to get a habsburg wife.

This is true on both counts. Hmm, decisions, decisions. I do think in Scotland it may be harder for the Protestants to cement their control so absolutely, what with their monarch being in the Kingdom from birth and not being away, thus giving the Catholics something to rally to. How the Earl of Arran reacts, what with now being third in line to the throne is going to be fascinating to see.

 

[HortenseMancini]

re: religion, Maybe he could be catholic but not overzealous about it. willing to play ball with his protestant lords while remaining himself a loyal son of the holy church. that should be enough not to piss off the likes of the lords of the congregation while still keeping him in with the continental catholic powers.

 

[VVD0D95]

re: religion, Maybe he could be catholic but not overzealous about it. willing to play ball with his protestant lords while remaining himself a loyal son of the holy church. that should be enough not to piss off the likes of the lords of the congregation while still keeping him in with the continental catholic powers.

Oh that could be interesting, if he takes after his father or grandfather in that regard, willing to assert dominance when needed, but also not going completely extreme, that might be enough I think. Plus he'd be more aware of the situation compared to Mary otl.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Elizabeth or Claude of France as James's wife?

 

[VVD0D95]

Elizabeth or Claude of France as James's wife?

Could definitely see Claude as James wife the question is would phil offer an Austrian cousin ti james when Mary I dies?

 

[Tyler96]

Basically avoids all of the handicaps Mary was working with- raised in Scotland, so closer to his lords and has a better feel for the situation on the ground (particularly regarding religion), is not a woman (and kings tend to have a bit more leeway with regard to their personal lives than Queens), less struggle with shitty spouses.

Somewhat better relationship with Liz given no Darnley marriage.

Assuming he proves a reasonably successful King of Scotland, and is either outright Protestant or Protestant-tolerant, he'd be in with a pretty good shot come Liz's death- assuming he's still alive. Things might be more difficult if he's died and his son is less competent or bogged down in that most favourite Stewart past-time- fratricidal civil wars.

 

[isabella]

Basically avoids all of the handicaps Mary was working with- raised in Scotland, so closer to his lords and has a better feel for the situation on the ground (particularly regarding religion), is not a woman (and kings tend to have a bit more leeway with regard to their personal lives than Queens), less struggle with shitty spouses.

Somewhat better relationship with Liz given no Darnley marriage.

Assuming he proves a reasonably successful King of Scotland, and is either outright Protestant or Protestant-tolerant, he'd be in with a pretty good shot come Liz's death- assuming he's still alive. Things might be more difficult if he's died and his son is less competent or bogged down in that most favourite Stewart past-time- fratricidal civil wars.

I think who things would change earlier: James would most likely be a Catholic and would try to get Elisabeth of France as bride between Edward’s death and her Spanish engagement. I can see Philip offering to this still Catholic James (no way who he will not be as he will be raised by his mother) an Archduchess as bride and the succession to England in exchange of an alliance with Spain instead of France. James would be a fool to reject such deal so Philip would have no reason for supporting Elizabeth’ succession in England and would abandon her to her own fate, pushing his wife Mary to name James VI as heir.

 

[Tyler96]

I think who things would change earlier: James would most likely be a Catholic and would try to get Elisabeth of France as bride between Edward’s death and her Spanish engagement. I can see Philip offering to this still Catholic James (no way who he will not be as he will be raised by his mother) an Archduchess as bride and the succession to England in exchange of an alliance with Spain instead of France. James would be a fool to reject such deal so Philip would have no reason for supporting Elizabeth’ succession in England and would abandon her to her own fate, pushing his wife Mary to name James VI as heir.

Would there be any swell of domestic support for Liz? Or are you suggesting that she will be disposed of (for e.g. Wyatt Rebellion)?

How attached was Mary of Guise to her French roots (I think she's Regent for most of Philip's tenure in England)? It's obviously not to same degree as IOTL, where Mary QotS was literally Dauphine of France, but would the French connections be any impediment for any impediment for Philip here?

 

[isabella]

Would there be any swell of domestic support for Liz? Or are you suggesting that she will be disposed of (for e.g. Wyatt Rebellion)?

How attached was Mary of Guise to her French roots (I think she's Regent for most of Philip's tenure in England)? It's obviously not to same degree as IOTL, where Mary QotS was literally Dauphine of France, but would the French connections be any impediment for any impediment for Philip here?

I am suggesting who without Philip’s protection she would be pay for the Wyatt rebellion. Marie of Guise’s French roots are a problem for Philip, but a not insuperable one if he can get her son married to an Archduchess and sign an alliance with Spain. In OTL his problem with Marie Stuart was who she was not only half-French but also French raised and French married

 

[The Professor]

I think TTL Rough Wooing is going to be a lot less rough and perhaps more successful.

 

[VVD0D95]

Basically avoids all of the handicaps Mary was working with- raised in Scotland, so closer to his lords and has a better feel for the situation on the ground (particularly regarding religion), is not a woman (and kings tend to have a bit more leeway with regard to their personal lives than Queens), less struggle with shitty spouses.

Somewhat better relationship with Liz given no Darnley marriage.

Assuming he proves a reasonably successful King of Scotland, and is either outright Protestant or Protestant-tolerant, he'd be in with a pretty good shot come Liz's death- assuming he's still alive. Things might be more difficult if he's died and his son is less competent or bogged down in that most favourite Stewart past-time- fratricidal civil wars.

Agreed there though as @isabella says if he’s still unmarried at the time Mary I starts getting ill, Philip may we’ll throw his support behind him instead of Liz which will have a lot of consequences no?

I think TTL Rough Wooing is going to be a lot less rough and perhaps more successful.

Oh? How so?

 

[Tyler96]

Agreed there though as @isabella says if he’s still unmarried at the time Mary I starts getting ill, Philip may we’ll throw his support behind him instead of Liz which will have a lot of consequences no?

Undoubtedly.

First it depends on how smoothly it all goes, then there’s obviously foreign-policy implications of a Spanish-aligned England and the obvious religious element.

 

[VVD0D95]

Undoubtedly.

First it depends on how smoothly it all goes, then there’s obviously foreign-policy implications of a Spanish-aligned England and the obvious religious element.

Agreed, I do think James VI likely would be catholic given who’d be raising him, I do also wonder if with their king actually in the country the lords of congregation are quite as successful as they were otl