Mary, Queen of Scots born. . . male?

[Nova_Philomena]

In OTL, Mary Stuart was born the daughter of James V of Scotland and Marie d'Guise on the 8th December 1542. She would become Queen Regnant of Scotland at six days old, and would marry four times, though notably to her first husband, Francis II of France, whom was one of the driving factors in why Spain did not actively support Mary in her bid for the English Throne. In 1567, she would be forced to abdicate in favor of her son, Prince James, and forced to flee to England where she would be intermingled with the Babbington Plot, and reluctantly beheaded by her cousin.

But what if Mary was born male, (named Robert). His father would still die of an alleged nervous collapse following the Battle of Solway Moss and he'd be crowned at six days old. He could still marry a Valois (Elisabeth), but I feel like if he doesn't marry her or Elisabeth dies early, he could try to court Elizabeth Tudor.

Robert would have the advantage that he probably won't have to live in France and can remain in his Kingdom, which might significantly help his popularity which OTL Mary was always at odds with.

I like the prospect of Elisabeth of Valois, but other brides;

1. Elizabeth Tudor
2. Dorothea of Lorraine (Marie d'Guise would love this match ngl)
3. Anna of Austria (I was gonna consider her Aunt, Joanna of Austria, but then I realized Joanna is not only way too old for him, but also Portugal is a better option for her, so maybe Charles could offer Anna or one of her sisters)

 

[Dragonboy]

1. Elizabeth Tudor

Like her the most. to give a more solid foundation to the union of england and scotland

 

[Nova_Philomena]

Like her the most. to give a more solid foundation to the union of england and scotland

I would love that to happen, but not if France or Spain has anything to say about it, Elisabeth and Anna would probably be pushed in Robert's face, especially because of the Protestant Reformation. But I like the idea of the marriage causing France and Spain to piss their pants to see England & Scotland not distracted by destroying each other.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Like her the most. to give a more solid foundation to the union of england and scotland

The nine years of age difference gives me some pause.

 

[Nova_Philomena]

The nine years of age difference gives me some pause.

Perhaps, but it could stop Anglo-Scottish clashes - granted - if the nobles agree.

 

[Dragonboy]

The nine years of age difference gives me some pause.

Not the worst age gap in that time period.

 

[Nova_Philomena]

Not the worst age gap in that time period.

Definitely

 

[FalconHonour]

Not the worst age gap in that time period.

No, but it's the wrong way round (and if Elizabeth still has the upheaval-filled childhood she did OTL, then I strongly suspect she'll still resist marriage TTL)

I'd say Claude de Valois has a decent shout, actually. Elisabeth was promised to Edward VI, and Henri II seemed quite keen for the match OTL, so I don't think he's going to want to give up on that, but Claude is only three years younger, and I could see Henri wanting another daughter to have a crown, and also to weave Scotland into the Anglo-French alliance.

 

[Nova_Philomena]

No, but it's the wrong way round (and if Elizabeth still has the upheaval-filled childhood she did OTL, then I strongly suspect she'll still resist marriage TTL)

I'd say Claude de Valois has a decent shout, actually. Elisabeth was promised to Edward VI, and Henri II seemed quite keen for the match OTL, so I don't think he's going to want to give up on that, but Claude is only three years younger, and I could see Henri wanting another daughter to have a crown, and also to weave Scotland into the Anglo-French alliance.

I actually did consider her when I was adding potential brides, Marie d'Guise would probably like the match, but I'm not sure, I'll consider it.

You're pretty much right about Elizabeth, I can imagine Robert trying to court her for marriage but her resisting for her OTL reasons.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Perhaps, but it could stop Anglo-Scottish clashes - granted - if the nobles agree.

Not the worst age gap in that time period.

No, but it's the wrong way round (and if Elizabeth still has the upheaval-filled childhood she did OTL, then I strongly suspect she'll still resist marriage TTL)

I'd say Claude de Valois has a decent shout, actually. Elisabeth was promised to Edward VI, and Henri II seemed quite keen for the match OTL, so I don't think he's going to want to give up on that, but Claude is only three years younger, and I could see Henri wanting another daughter to have a crown, and also to weave Scotland into the Anglo-French alliance.

If it was male Mary that was elder then Elizabeth I wouldn't have much pause. But Elizabeth is nearly ten years older, so I thinks Claude might work better.

 

[material_boy]

I agree that Elisabeth (or Claude) of Valois would be Robert's wife. (I can't believe he isn't named James ) I have to say that I think this is most likely because I disagree that the boy would grow up in Scotland -- I think he'd grow up in France just like OTL Mary.

Henry VIII would almost certainly try to take advantage of the long minority to break the Auld Alliance, just as he did in OTL. A marriage between Elizabeth Tudor and the son of the earl of Arran, who was regent of Scotland, was arranged in OTL and Henry would probably do the same in ATL to try and get Arran in his pocket. This sets up the same Arran-Mary of Guise divide that we got in OTL, except the issue at the heart of the ATL conflict is control of the boy king instead of the marriage of girl queen. Mary of Guise probably ships Robert off to France for his own protection, similar to what Robert III tried to do with James I a century and a half earlier. Robert grows up at the French court and Henry II arranges to make one of his daughters queen for having protected the king of Scots for so long.

Robert being raised in France as a Catholic has a massive butterfly effect on Britain, both religiously and politically. First, he's in a much stronger position to lead a war against the Protestants in his own country should they still rise to power in ATL. Second, the Stewarts were the clear Catholic heirs to Mary I, so if she comes to the throne in an ATL where there's no threat of a personal union between France and Scotland (i.e., no marriage between Francis and Mary QOS), then Mary I is much more likely to support the Stewart succession.

1. Elizabeth Tudor

Besides the nine-year age difference that Blue already noted, why would the Scots want a queen who at this point in time is considered a bastard by both the Catholics and the English church?

Not the worst age gap in that time period.

No, but as Falcon says, typically age gaps ran in the other direction for reproductive purposes. A wife being nine years older is quite unusual, especially when there's no real gain here.

 

[FalconHonour]

I agree that Elisabeth (or Claude) of Valois would be Robert's wife. (I can't believe he isn't named James ) I have to say that I think this is most likely because I disagree that the boy would grow up in Scotland -- I think he'd grow up in France just like OTL Mary.

Henry VIII would almost certainly try to take advantage of the long minority to break the Auld Alliance, just as he did in OTL. A marriage between Elizabeth Tudor and the son of the earl of Arran, who was regent of Scotland, was arranged in OTL and Henry would probably do the same in ATL to try and get Arran in his pocket. This sets up the same Arran-Mary of Guise divide that we got in OTL, except the issue at the heart of the ATL conflict is control of the boy king instead of the marriage of girl queen. Mary of Guise probably ships Robert off to France for his own protection, similar to what Robert III tried to do with James I a century and a half earlier. Robert grows up at the French court and Henry II arranges to make one of his daughters queen for having protected the king of Scots for so long.

Robert being raised in France as a Catholic has a massive butterfly effect on Britain, both religiously and politically. First, he's in a much stronger position to lead a war against the Protestants in his own country should they still rise to power in ATL. Second, the Stewarts were the clear Catholic heirs to Mary I, so if she comes to the throne in an ATL where there's no threat of a personal union between France and Scotland (i.e., no marriage between Francis and Mary QOS), then Mary I is much more likely to support the Stewart succession.



Besides the nine-year age difference that Blue already noted, why would the Scots want a queen who at this point in time is considered a bastard by both the Catholics and the English church?



No, but as Falcon says, typically age gaps ran in the other direction for reproductive purposes. A wife being nine years older is quite unusual, especially when there's no real gain here.

I hadn't considered that Robert might grow up in France, but yes. I could see it. And Mary I supporting Robert over Margaret Douglas is also a fascinating idea. Perhaps Robert's son could marry one of Margaret's granddaughters to merge the lines...

 

[Nova_Philomena]

I hadn't considered that Robert might grow up in France, but yes. I could see it. And Mary I supporting Robert over Margaret Douglas is also a fascinating idea. Perhaps Robert's son could marry one of Margaret's granddaughters to merge the lines...

I like the idea of him marrying Lady Jane Grey, but he doesn't need to. Robert already has a claim as the grandson of Margaret Tudor. Phillip II might be interested in Robert/Anna (as would Mary Tudor), but Scotland is historically closer to France.

 

[FalconHonour]

I like the idea of him marrying Lady Jane Grey, but he doesn't need to. Robert already has a claim as the grandson of Margaret Tudor. Phillip II might be interested in Robert/Anna (as would Mary Tudor), but Scotland is historically closer to France.

I wasn't talking about Jane Grey. I was thinking his son by Claude could marry Arbella

 

[Nova_Philomena]

I wasn't talking about Jane Grey. I was thinking his son by Claude could marry Arbella

Lady Arbella Stuart?

 

[FalconHonour]

Lady Arbella Stuart?

Yep

 

[Nova_Philomena]

Yep

I liked your idea in the other thread, I'm gonna stick with Claude of Valois as Robert's wife, and Arbella is tempting because she does have a good claim.

 

[FouDuRoy]

She would become Queen Regnant of Scotland at six days old, and would marry four times

Four times? I guess you mean three times: Francis II, Darnley and Bothwell. I have never heard of a forth marriage.

No, but it's the wrong way round

No, but as Falcon says, typically age gaps ran in the other direction for reproductive purposes. A wife being nine years older is quite unusual, especially when there's no real gain here.

Mary I of England was eleven years older than her husband Philip II of Spain.
Elizabeth I of England also had suitors much younger than her.
And probably the record: At one point, the future Henry III of France was supposed to marry Anna Jagiellon who was twenty-eight years older than him. Yes, twenty-eight years older! (He managed to avoid this marriage and finally married a woman two years younger than him.)

I'd say Claude de Valois has a decent shout, actually. Elisabeth was promised to Edward VI, and Henri II seemed quite keen for the match OTL, so I don't think he's going to want to give up on that

But Edward died in 1553. Robert would reach the age to marry in 1556 and Elisabeth in 1557. They can marry.

Henry VIII would almost certainly try to take advantage of the long minority to break the Auld Alliance, just as he did in OTL. A marriage between Elizabeth Tudor and the son of the earl of Arran, who was regent of Scotland, was arranged in OTL and Henry would probably do the same in ATL to try and get Arran in his pocket. This sets up the same Arran-Mary of Guise divide that we got in OTL, except the issue at the heart of the ATL conflict is control of the boy king instead of the marriage of girl queen.

What if Henry VIII wants Elizabeth to marry Robert himself?

Robert being raised in France as a Catholic has a massive butterfly effect on Britain, both religiously and politically. First, he's in a much stronger position to lead a war against the Protestants in his own country should they still rise to power in ATL. Second, the Stewarts were the clear Catholic heirs to Mary I, so if she comes to the throne in an ATL where there's no threat of a personal union between France and Scotland (i.e., no marriage between Francis and Mary QOS), then Mary I is much more likely to support the Stewart succession.

About English succession, if Robert is in France and expected to marry Elisabeth or Claude, I am pretty sure he would not have better chances than OTL Mary QoS. If he is in Scotland, that's very different. Maybe he can get Philip II's support by marrying a Habsburg (probably the newly widowed Juana as Anna was still too young to marry during Mary QoE's lifetime).

Crazy idea : Elizabeth I of England marries Francis II of France and the two manage to produce a son before Francis' death. Well... I know. This is the most unlikely event that we can imagine. For plenty of reasons. But I just felt the need to write this at the second I thought to it.

 

[Nova_Philomena]

Four times? I guess you mean three times: Francis II, Darnley and Bothwell. I have never heard of a forth marriage.

I meant three haha, I got a bit carried a way.

But Edward died in 1553. Robert would reach the age to marry in 1556 and Elisabeth in 1557. They can marry.

That's sort of what I was thinking, but a lot of people make good arguments for Claude. Maybe a surviving King Edward marries Elisabeth and Robert marries Claude, but I think both Princesses are good options.

About English succession, if Robert is in France and expected to marry Elisabeth or Claude, I am pretty sure he would not have better chances than OTL Mary QoS. If he is in Scotland, that's very different. Maybe he can get Philip II's support by marrying a Habsburg (probably the newly widowed Juana as Anna was still too young to marry during Mary QoE's lifetime).

Why should Robert take a widow when he can simply wait to marry a much more valuable Hapsburg Princess? I get the fact that Joanna had virtually no relationship with her son Sebastian, meaning she would not be preoccupied in Portugal, but I still see Anna or the other Joanna (The one that would become Grand Duchess of Tuscany) as more likely Hapsburg Brides.

Crazy idea : Elizabeth I of England marries Francis II of France and the two manage to produce a son before Francis' death. Well... I know. This is the most unlikely event that we can imagine. For plenty of reasons. But I just felt the need to write this at the second I thought to it.

Lmaoo.

Well, Spain would piss themselves because France and England are no longer having a stupid rivalry he could bank off of, and not being able to manipulate France with Hapsburg Princesses would be devastating.

 

[FouDuRoy]

Why should Robert take a widow when he can simply wait to marry a much more valuable Hapsburg Princess? I get the fact that Joanna had virtually no relationship with her son Sebastian, meaning she would not be preoccupied in Portugal, but I still see Anna or the other Joanna (The one that would become Grand Duchess of Tuscany) as more likely Hapsburg Brides.

Robert can't wait too long. He needs to have Philip's support at the time of Mary QoE's death. Seeing her health deteriorating, I guess he would take the first available Habsburg princess. But you're right: I had not considered Ferdinand I's daughters.