Mary, Queen of Scots Born Male

Did a brief search of the forum and couldn't find a recent discussion on this.

Suppose Mary is born Martin, and James V dies as OTL. There's still a long regency in store for Scotland (we'll presume Martin doesn't inconveniently die in infancy or early childhood) but the King would naturally remain in the country during his minority, potentially at risk of being a focus of intrigue.

Would the Scottish regency be in a hurry to make a French match for King Martin, as they were with Mary, if there is even a suitable girl available?

Further, how does it affect Henry VIII's marriage politics that Scotland's King is a viable potential claimant to the English crown? The reluctance of England to accept a ruling Queen would work against Tudor succession, and potentially mean King Martin is favored in some quarters. If Martin remains Catholic while Henry breaks with Rome, that's even more of a risk.
 
He'd be James or Robert, like his brothers. Thin end of the wedge for John, Alexander or David.

Now that that's out of the way, Henry would probably either betroth Elizabeth to this boy (very unlikely, since there'd be a bigger age gap than between Henry and Katherine of Aragon) or he would treatit with no more attention than the birth of a dauphin.

As to the French marriage, I don't see why they wouldn't engage him to alt-Élisabeth de Valois. The fun starts if Ed.VI dies without issue on schedule. Foreign Catholic MALE versus domestic Catholic FEMALE.
 
A Stewart of Scotland and one born as future king, not named James, Robert, David or Alexander is pretty ASB... The only possible other names (but still almost ASB for a heir) are John, Walter, Arthur, Henry, Edward (from his grandmother's family) Francis, Charles, Claude, Louis (for his mother's family) (obviously Francis and Henry can be also for the French King and the Dauphin).

As Catholic our young King will not claim the throne before Mary's death but will press for being recognized as Mary I's heir if she die without children.
As bride either the ATL-Elizabeth of Valois or an Austrian archduchess if possible (in exchange of Philip's support as Mary's heir)
 
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As bride either the ATL-Elizabeth of Valois or an Austrian archduchess if possible (in exchange of Philip's support as Mary's heir)

What about a Catholic English noble woman? If there is on close to Mary I this would be handy in placing King James VII as heir over Elizabeth (similar to what Edward did)

Would the English people preferred a married young Scottish king over an older unwed princess?

You could marry Him off to Philip's sister Joanna of Austria.

An obscure choice would be Renata of Lorraine, the second child and eldest daughter of*Francis I, Duke of Lorraine*and*Christina of Denmark. Her paternal grandparents were*Antoine, Duke of Lorraine*and*Renée of Bourbon-Montpensierand her maternal grandparents were*Christian II of Denmark*and*Isabella of Austria. In OTL she married the Duke of Bavaria but had no children.
 
Joanna is 7 years and half older than ATL scottish king and i think the difference is too much for make her a candidate... And Philip need her in Spain as regent so she is out of the market
 
The name I used wasn't terribly serious, no need to be pedantic. ;)

As to the French marriage, I don't see why they wouldn't engage him to alt-Élisabeth de Valois. The fun starts if Ed.VI dies without issue on schedule. Foreign Catholic MALE versus domestic Catholic FEMALE.

This is really the nub of the issue (or lack thereof, in Henry and Edward's cases). Would Henry VIII's decisions change significantly in his later years given the stronger Scottish claim? Mary could be married off while Henry is alive, for example. What there wouldn't be is the Rough Wooing, but perhaps there could be a war in Edward's reign regardless.

Would it be plausible for Mary to still succeed Edward, and name *James VI as her heir? It seems unlikely that Mary could have children, and if she dies nearly on schedule or perhaps a little later, *James VI would be out or nearly out of his minority.
 
One thing for certain is that I do NOT think that the Scots would have allowed for their child monarch to have been sent out of the country for the express purpose of eventually marrying a foreign heir had the last surviving legit child of James V been born male. Still, I wonder if the Stewart/ Stuart dynasty would have lasted to 1714.
 
One thing for certain is that I do NOT think that the Scots would have allowed for their child monarch to have been sent out of the country for the express purpose of eventually marrying a foreign heir had the last surviving legit child of James V been born male. Still, I wonder if the Stewart/ Stuart dynasty would have lasted to 1714.

What makes you doubt that it would have lasted?
 
marry Him off to Philip's sister Joanna of Austria.

An obscure choice would be Renata of Lorraine, the second child and eldest daughter of*Francis I, Duke of Lorraine*and*Christina of Denmark. Her paternal grandparents were*Antoine, Duke of Lorraine*and*Renée of Bourbon-Montpensierand her maternal grandparents were*Christian II of Denmark*and*Isabella of Austria. In OTL she married the Duke of Bavaria but had no children.

I think you're confusing Renata either with her niece (Élisabeth Renée) who also married the duke of Bavaria (Renata's son); or with her sister, Dorothea, who married the duke of Brunswick-(insert name here) and died childless.

As to imperial princesses, Juana of Spain, Johanna of Austria or their niece, Anna of Austria. However, since Scotland usuallyallied OPPOSITE to what England did, a Habsburg match after Ed.VI's death is unlikely.
 
Well certainly wipes out the rough wooing for a start.
Which means the pressure on the Scots to find a spouse for the infant monarch drops down the priority list.
James V didn't marry until he was in his mid 20s so I suspect there would be no great rush to marry our James VI off any earlier (despite the lack of an heir).
A very long and disputed battle over the regency between the Queen Dowager, the Earl of Arran, and Cardinal Beaton - and a difficult task to battle the reformation in Scotland - those it does mean that the reforming Parliament that established the Kirk in the late 1550s can't happen as there will be a present adult King in place rather than an absent Queen.

Of course depending who controls the King might make a difference to his religious views.

He also gets certain advantages that Mary didn't have - his sex and a domestic upbringing which makes him more aware of the chaotic state of the Scots monarchy and state rather than as a pampered prince at a foreign court.

For the English it makes little difference - the Scots line are excluded under Henry's will, the English are not going to chose James VI over Mary or Elizabeth (Most English protestants still supported Mary initially over Jane Grey and many English Catholics were likewise supportive of Elizabeth over any of the Catholic alternatives in 1558)

A bigger issue for them is if Elizabeth succeeds as in otl the pressure on her to marry will be larger given her nearest relative will be the Catholic King of Scots who like OTL Mary will be keen to be named her heir or used as a target to replace her. It also will significantly increase the importance of Elizabeth's Protestant heirs such as Catherine Grey. A male Scots King might also wipe out Margaret Douglas' marriage to the Earl of Lennox who had defected to the English side in the rough wooing - so she might have married elsewhere with issue.
 
I think who an Austrian match for our ATL James VI is very likely during the last years of Mary's reign. Philip for sure will be likely willing to support James as his wife's heir if he marry one of his relative (Johanna or Helen of Austria are the most logical choices followed by their niece Anna but also Barbara and Joanna of Spain are candidates)
 
A bigger issue for them is if Elizabeth succeeds as in otl the pressure on her to marry will be larger given her nearest relative will be the Catholic King of Scots who like OTL Mary will be keen to be named her heir or used as a target to replace her. It also will significantly increase the importance of Elizabeth's Protestant heirs such as Catherine Grey. A male Scots King might also wipe out Margaret Douglas' marriage to the Earl of Lennox who had defected to the English side in the rough wooing - so she might have married elsewhere with issue.

The OTL countess of Lennox expressed a desire to marry a Howard before she was forcibly married off over the border, so maybe she gets it right here.
 
For the English it makes little difference - the Scots line are excluded under Henry's will, the English are not going to chose James VI over Mary or Elizabeth (Most English protestants still supported Mary initially over Jane Grey and many English Catholics were likewise supportive of Elizabeth over any of the Catholic alternatives in 1558)

Would that really make a difference for English Catholics? Henry's will didn't have legal force per se; what one king decrees, another king (or queen) can repeal. Why couldn't Mary's will override that of Henry's? Especially if Mary goes a step further by sealing her desired succession with Parliamentary recognition.

I think who an Austrian match for our ATL James VI is very likely during the last years of Mary's reign. Philip for sure will be likely willing to support James as his wife's heir if he marry one of his relative (Johanna or Helen of Austria are the most logical choices followed by their niece Anna but also Barbara and Joanna of Spain are candidates)

Would this be a situation where both France and Spain/Austria would be competing to be Scotland's patron for *James VI's claim on England? France would have an advantage in that sort of competition, but as you say, Philip could potentially make *James the legal heir to England through Mary's will.
 
Would that really make a difference for English Catholics? Henry's will didn't have legal force per se; what one king decrees, another king (or queen) can repeal. Why couldn't Mary's will override that of Henry's? Especially if Mary goes a step further by sealing her desired succession with Parliamentary recognition.

Don't forget that Edward's will specified Lady Jane Grey and Mary's accession was not opposed in overwhelming force (it would have a been a different matter if Mary had otherwise been retained under house arrest)
 
The Spanish wouldn't want James, just like they didn't want Mary Stuart OTL. James's mother is the Duke of Guise's sister, Scotland is a traditional French ally, and Spain and England are fighting a war with France at the time of Mary's death. Elizabeth is a much safer option. It's not until the breaking of the Auld Alliance, and the collapse of Valois France into civil war, and Mary Stuart's own deposition as queen of Scotland, and a decade or so of anti-Catholic religious policy from Elizabeth, that Philip starts looking at Mary as a serious possibility. Even then, he's pretty ambivalent.
 
The Spanish wouldn't want James, just like they didn't want Mary Stuart OTL. James's mother is the Duke of Guise's sister, Scotland is a traditional French ally, and Spain and England are fighting a war with France at the time of Mary's death. Elizabeth is a much safer option. It's not until the breaking of the Auld Alliance, and the collapse of Valois France into civil war, and Mary Stuart's own deposition as queen of Scotland, and a decade or so of anti-Catholic religious policy from Elizabeth, that Philip starts looking at Mary as a serious possibility. Even then, he's pretty ambivalent.
Alliance changes: for me is not so unlikely think who Philip can support James if James marry/is married to a Austrian or Spanish princess. Mary was half-french, grown-up in France, close to her Guise's relative and the Dauphine and then Queen of France so is natural who OTL Philip supported Elizabeth but we are talking about a Scottish King, born and grown-up in Scotland who have a French mother and maybe is/was engaged to a French princess but is a Catholic, fully legitimate male with a pretty strong claim to the English Crown. I think who Elizabeth was able to save herself from execution mostly because Philip needed her alive for remove the danger of Mary of France on the English throne, if you remove her Philip will not have reason for saving Elizabeth from the executioner. I am not sure who without Mary of Scotland as Queen-to-be of France and potential heiress to England, Elizabeth will be alive at the time of Mary's death and if our James (son of the son of Henry VIII's eldest sister) is allied with Philip and married or engaged to a relative of Philip (his sister Juana of Spain, his paternal cousins Johanna, Helen and Barbara of Austria, his niece Anna of Austria or also his maternal cousins Maria and Catherine of Guimarães) had good chances to became the next King. Philip will need first to persuade Mary to named James her heir and then hoping the Parliament will convalidate Mary's will.
 
Well our James VI is still going to have a natural leaning towards France (he will still have the same mother as OTL Mary Stuart after all)

Few other points:
1) Scotland wasn't exactly the greatest catch - and most of her foreign marital alliances had been pretty low with the exception of the french ones which were primarily motivated by anti English feeling in both nations.
2) To many he will be regarded as Mary Tudor's legitimate heir - however the obvious solution to Mary Tudor is for him to marry her half sister Elizabeth solving her own issue of having a protestant heir.
3) Philip is going to be reluctant to risk all on a male heir given he himself at this period is seriously considering retaining England by marrying her himself on Mary's death or marrying her to a close male relation and keeping control - why risk that on an unknown pro-French King north of the border.
4) There is a strong chance that James is going to have domestic religious strife at this period that makes any chance of an invasion to back up his claim fairly unlikely (though might happen later).
5) Whatever people say - unlike James VI - Elizabeth is going to be a damn site nearer the source of power on Mary's death and has considerable support and is popular.
 
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