mary of Burgundy and Charles, duke of Berry and Guyenne

this was planned but the Duke died, so if we assume he does not die in 1472 and instead marries Mary despite th opposition of his brother Louis "the spider king"

How does this eventually effect the courseof events?

One assumes that Charles will be around to aid Charles the Bold with some French contingents from Berry and Guyenne against the Swiss and the Lorraine if needed.

Is he able to moderate the behaviour of Charles at Grandson?

Do the French involve themselves so much in the Italian wars. Provided Charles VIII still dies without male issue The French and Burgundian crowns should unite under a male heir of Mary and Charles? but Burgundy will still be a going concern at this point...Mary will still need to give the Golden Freedoms to the Netherlanders to gain her inheritance there.

Marriage for such an heir to Juana Trastamara is probably out of course. Mind you didn't the French and Spanish initially co-operate over Naples.

Maxy will have to find another bride of course.....Sophie of Poland or perhaps a Saxon bride. Any Bavarian is probably too directly related at this point.
 
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When would this marriage happens? Wouldn't Louis XI try to stop his brother from doing this? It would be interesting to see a civil war happening in France due to a family's conflict over a marriage.

About a possible wife to the male son of Mary and Berry, what about Anne of Brittany? It could be seen as union of both Duchies (Burgundy and Brittany) against the French king's ambition - until Charles VIII dies childless and Berry or his son inherits France also.
 
When would this marriage happens? Wouldn't Louis XI try to stop his brother from doing this? It would be interesting to see a civil war happening in France due to a family's conflict over a marriage.

About a possible wife to the male son of Mary and Berry, what about Anne of Brittany? It could be seen as union of both Duchies (Burgundy and Brittany) against the French king's ambition - until Charles VIII dies childless and Berry or his son inherits France also.


Well the betrothal was announced I think in 1469 or 1470 so perhaps in 1472 when Mary is 15 or perhaps 1473. Charles would probably continue to act as a close ally of Charles the Bold so he canprobably bring the resources of Berry and Guyenne to bear in support of Charles and his disputes with both the Swiss and Rene II of Lorraine. At the very least this probably translates into continued survival for Charles after the seige of Nancy if not outright defeat for Rene.

which will put a whole new spin on things during the "mad war" of the 1480's if the two Charles are still around when Louis dies and Charles VIII is still a minor under the regency of his sister Anne.
Under the stronger leadership of Burgundy, central authority in France could very well be eroded as was initially attempted under Louis. Either that of Anne will make some considerable concessions at the very least to the two Charles' to assure Charles VIII ascendancy. Yes a marriage between Anne of Brittany and a male heir of Charles and Mary would seem to make sense in the sense that it would strengthen the hand of Burgundy and the other Dukes of France against central royal authority in Paris. A resurgence of the League of Public Weal.

Obviously there is no guarantee that Charles VIII will die as he did without male issue surviving him so at the very least I should think royal authority will be greatly threatened if not outright eroded to the point of non-existence outside the royal domain and a royal marriage between Brittany and Burgundy would preclude the need to seeking a marriage to Maxy and Holy Roman Empire. It would present Francis with a "made in France" solution to the creeping infringements of the Royal authority.

Lets assume then that at least one male heir and one female heir to both Charles and Mary by 1477 at least. Say Isabelle Marie, late 1474 early 1475 and Phillip Charles late 1476 or early 1477. Should make him perfectly palatable in the political climate for Anne of Brittany.

As to Maximillian I am currently leaning towards Amalia of Brandenburg (2nd choice), Beatrice of Naples or Christina of Saxony (1st choice, necessitating someone else for Johan of Denmark and by definition the possibility of a Christian II with a somewhat different disposition) perhaps Anna Karlsdotter, if she is old enough. In the case of Beatrice, then Matthias Corvinus would best be served by marriage to Sophie of Poland, perhaps given the historical connection between Poland and Hungary.
 
As to Maximillian I am currently leaning towards Amalia of Brandenburg (2nd choice), Beatrice of Naples or Christina of Saxony (1st choice, necessitating someone else for Johan of Denmark and by definition the possibility of a Christian II with a somewhat different disposition) perhaps Anna Karlsdotter, if she is old enough. In the case of Beatrice, then Matthias Corvinus would best be served by marriage to Sophie of Poland, perhaps given the historical connection between Poland and Hungary.

I think Beatrice to Maximilian would be the funniest option. As it seems that she was esterile (she married twice, but her husbands only had children from other women), if she marries Maximilian that would end the Habsburgs for good, as he was the only surviving male son of Frederick III, and there were no other branches of the family. And Sophie of Poland, who gave birth to 17 children :eek: IOTL, would provide a male heir to Matthias. Add to it Charles VIII still dieing childless and you would have a huge France (France + Burgundy + Brittany), the end of the Habsburgs and the Corvinus dynasty surviving as kings of Hungary. It looks a very interesting scenario.
 
I think Beatrice to Maximilian would be the funniest option. As it seems that she was esterile (she married twice, but her husbands only had children from other women), if she marries Maximilian that would end the Habsburgs for good, as he was the only surviving male son of Frederick III, and there were no other branches of the family. And Sophie of Poland, who gave birth to 17 children :eek: IOTL, would provide a male heir to Matthias. Add to it Charles VIII still dieing childless and you would have a huge France (France + Burgundy + Brittany), the end of the Habsburgs and the Corvinus dynasty surviving as kings of Hungary. It looks a very interesting scenario.

No more Hapsburgs? Fantastic :D

Have to say, that scenario does sound very intriguing. Though negative points for an uber-France so early on :(
 
No more Hapsburgs? Fantastic :D

Have to say, that scenario does sound very intriguing. Though negative points for an uber-France so early on :(

It's just temporary.:p After all, ITTL Burgundy-Brittany would try to help the French nobles to be more independent and powerful againt the king. When the Duke of Burgundy becomes king, he will taste his own poison.:p

I wonder what would be the effects of it in Iberia though, and the conflicts over Naples.
 
I think Beatrice to Maximilian would be the funniest option. As it seems that she was esterile (she married twice, but her husbands only had children from other women), if she marries Maximilian that would end the Habsburgs for good, as he was the only surviving male son of Frederick III, and there were no other branches of the family. And Sophie of Poland, who gave birth to 17 children :eek: IOTL, would provide a male heir to Matthias. Add to it Charles VIII still dieing childless and you would have a huge France (France + Burgundy + Brittany), the end of the Habsburgs and the Corvinus dynasty surviving as kings of Hungary. It looks a very interesting scenario.

Well I am still thinking he would probably choose a German princess given he is going to be HRE. Beatrice is simply there because she is the right age but your right that would really change things...I still lean towards Christina of Saxony for Maximilian and someone different then for Johan I or Amalia. Johan would probably also prefer a German princess, but thought to add the prospect of a Swedish noblewoman to gain greater favour within that part of the realm I keep finding a date of 1451/52 for Anna but that may not be right. Where are all are Nordic members when you need them.
 
Well I am still thinking he would probably choose a German princess given he is going to be HRE. Beatrice is simply there because she is the right age but your right that would really change things...I still lean towards Christina of Saxony for Maximilian and someone different then for Johan I or Amalia. Johan would probably also prefer a German princess, but thought to add the prospect of a Swedish noblewoman to gain greater favour within that part of the realm I keep finding a date of 1451/52 for Anna but that may not be right. Where are all are Nordic members when you need them.

Maybe Beatrice could marry Charles VIII then. It makes sense, as one of the enemies of the kings of France were the Dukes of Lorraine, who also claimed the kingdom of Naples. The French king would have more important threats at home to care about Southern Italy, and so an alliance with the king of Naples is possible. However, Beatrice would ensure that Charles VIII has no children.
 
It's just temporary.:p After all, ITTL Burgundy-Brittany would try to help the French nobles to be more independent and powerful againt the king. When the Duke of Burgundy becomes king, he will taste his own poison.:p

I wonder what would be the effects of it in Iberia though, and the conflicts over Naples.


So yes French centralization would probably be delayed... but with an ascension of an heir of Burgundy/Brittany to the throne consolidation would probably come swift as it would combine Burgundy/Brittany and the Royal desmense all at once.. \however Charles Viii could still have an heir despite attempts to keep his only son and heir safe he stilldied from measles, though Charles himself died in what can only be considered a freak accident on the Tennis court. However it is likely that in this scenario his uncle in Burgundy will become his chief rival for influence and opponent of the Royal centralization of power in France. If his first son still dies from measles he may still bow to the inevitable and try to arrange a marriage if possible to a son of Anne of Brittany and Phillip Charles of Burgundy (as Mary and Duke of Berry's heir is to be named) for one of his daughters instead, she would only be Queen consort of course. However, if he doesn't die on the court he may still obtain a new male heir. France would remain somwhat balkanized especially if the Ducal priviledges can be restored during the course of Anne's regency. In which case, the prospect of a sovereign Burgundian Kingdom is a real possibility, if they have added Brittany by marriage, Lorraine and parts of eastern Switzerland and Alsace by conquest and Burgundy, the Netherlands, Berry and Guyenne by inheritance. Guyenne and Brittany would probably have to be given up at some point to France if they secured an independent position. Otherwise France becomes an eastern version of the HRE, with the Valois Dukes of Burgundy assuming the same role the Hapsburgs played in Germany, except they won't have a Brandenburg-Prussia power to deal with. So consolidation under those Dukes should occur at some point.

Protestantism will have a much stronger position in France in this TL.
 
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Maybe Beatrice could marry Charles VIII then. It makes sense, as one of the enemies of the kings of France were the Dukes of Lorraine, who also claimed the kingdom of Naples. The French king would have more important threats at home to care about Southern Italy, and so an alliance with the king of Naples is possible. However, Beatrice would ensure that Charles VIII has no children.


shes 13 years older than Charles...not really a good match in that sense. but if Max did marry Christina instead, then perhaps if there is no Swedish noble woman suitable then perhaps Sophie or Katherine of of Pommerania -Stettin would suit Johan of Denmark. A move that would probably strengthen Bogislav X vis a vis Brandenburg but not really endear him to his Swedish nobles
 
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Maybe Beatrice could marry Charles VIII then. It makes sense, as one of the enemies of the kings of France were the Dukes of Lorraine, who also claimed the kingdom of Naples. The French king would have more important threats at home to care about Southern Italy, and so an alliance with the king of Naples is possible. However, Beatrice would ensure that Charles VIII has no children.

True but Louis XI did support Rene II against Charles the Bold to some extent. Even though Rene had been an opponent during the opposition of the League of Weal. In that sense Rene was an opponent to the same extent as the other dukes of France. In short when it suited them to be they were and when it suited Louis to make concessions to them he did ( Which he promptly withdrew when he feltit prudent to do so or he could do so with little consequence). but as said, it will be in the regency of Anne if the two Charles (Burgundy and Berry) are still prominent that the League could very well obtain its goals viz a viz the Royal power in France.
 
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