Marx's Legacy w/o Leninism

I don't see them holding industrial areas. Why? The French populace would never tolerate it. They would refuse to work similar to how the Germans refused to mine coal for the French when they occupied that territory. Germany would have to grudgingly give up said areas, for it would cost far too much to hold.

Besides that, I know about the Fascism part. However, something that could help would be for the French Left to shift the blame to capitalism as much as possible, and away from rightist targets. This is possible. Hard as hell, but possible.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Hm, or perhaps just political and social chaos -- but overall, yeah. Why do I get the feeling a "Fourth Republic" could emerge out of all this?
It won't be a republic; those have brought France nothing but ruin ITTL. It'll more likely be an État français if groups like the JP or the CdF take over. If France swings far enough right that the Action Française comes out on top (a distinct possibility despite), you may get a full-blown Kingdom of France.

If Leftists somehow manage to take over, it will probably be a
République populaire française. But again, this will be difficult.
Well, to be fair to the German socialists (SPD + USPD), they only came 26 seats -- 14% of the parliament -- short of an outright majority.
That's impressive, but it's still not *that* close to the mark. 14% off is a low B.
 
It won't be a republic; those have brought France nothing but ruin ITTL. It'll more likely be an État français if groups like the JP or the CdF take over. If France swings far enough right that the Action Française comes out on top (a distinct possibility despite), you may get a full-blown Kingdom of France.

If Leftists somehow manage to take over, it will probably be a République populaire française. But again, this will be difficult.

So if the Leftists do pull out a win, the French Third Republic survives?

That's impressive, but it's still not *that* close to the mark. 14% off is a low B.

Well, mostly I was just saying that given OTL's WWI, a Socialist takeover in Germany was plausible -- I didn't want to say more, b/c that's not close to saying the same for France TTL...
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I don't see them holding industrial areas. Why? The French populace would never tolerate it.
Since when does that matter? Do you think that the Belgian or Russian populace would have "tolerated" the Germans if they had an actual choice in the peace process? If the French domestic front is collapsing, if there are radical socialist insurrections in the cities, restive and demoralized troops at the Front, then the Germans are going to take advantage of things when it all implodes, just like Russia.

While the government struggles to contain insurrectionists, resources will have to be diverted from the front, which the French can't really afford. Germany will likely be able to capture the industrial zones of Lorraine, Nord-Pas-De-Calais, Picardie, Ardennes, perhaps Franche-Comte, maybe even penetrate and ravage as far as
Île-de-France and temporarily occupy Paris.
They would refuse to work similar to how the Germans refused to mine coal for the French when they occupied that territory. Germany would have to grudgingly give up said areas, for it would cost far too much to hold.
The Germans would probably be fine with that. Whatever isn't destroyed by German troops will probably be dismantled and sent East anyways. And who cares if the French don't work? As long as they're not actively fighting the Germans and none of their goods are making it to French troops or guerrillas, the Germans will be happy.
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
So if the Leftists do pull out a win, the French Third Republic survives?
No. That's if the liberal-conservative counter-revolutionaries pull off a win. If the leftists win right out of the gate, the Third Republic will be gotten rid of in favor of either a more popular/socialistic/communistic republic or just a Fourth Republic.
Well, mostly I was just saying that given OTL's WWI, a Socialist takeover in Germany was plausible -- I didn't want to say more, b/c that's not close to saying the same for France TTL...
If the Reichskanzler isn't a socialist, then the socialists are not in charge, no matter their majority in the Reichstag. On top of that, the chancellor and his government are responsible solely to the Kaiser, not the legislature. And so long as Wilhelm is on the throne, there will not be a socialist government in Germany.
 
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No. That's if the liberal-conservative counter-revolutionaries pull off a win. If the leftists win right out of the gate, the Third Republic will be gotten rid of in favor of either a more popular/socialistic/communistic republic or just a Fourth Republic.

Ah -- gotcha. Then let me ask -- could one Constitutional change possibly entail direct representation for the syndicales? Or is that ASB?

If the Reichskanzler isn't a socialist, then the socialists are not in charge, no matter their majority in the Reichstag. On top of that, the chancellor and his government are responsible solely to the Kaiser, not the legislature. And so long as Wilhelm is on the throne, there will not be a socialist government in Germany.

I should clarify -- when I said a Socialist Government in Germany was plausible, I only meant after OTL's WWI, when the Emperor was replaced by Reichspräsident Ebert. I'll admit that at this point in the conversation it's completely moot, since the TL we're primarily talking about (where Germany wins WWI) is incompatible with it. But that's all I'm saying. :eek:
 
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