Maria Theresa of Spain's Claim

Doing research for my timeline, have a question if someone could help me.

Maria Theresa of Spain was wife to King Louis XIV of France. When Philip Prospero died she was heiress presumptive to Spain, though until the birth of Charles II.

Now, if Charles II is not born, since she is wife to King Louis, if Philip IV has no more children and dies, does this make her Queen of Spain and how would the Spanish nobility take this? Would Spain tolerate almost being subservient to France (I realise Maria is Queen, not Louis King of Spain but I would guess this would ruffle a few feathers). Also with Spain lacking the Dowry payment, could the issue of Maria and Louis claim the thrones of both Spain and France?

This seems unlikely to me, but I'm trying to work out how things would resolve.
 
Earlier War of Spanish Succession ensues.
With 14-years old Margaret-Theresa crowned as Margaret I of Spain, while Louis XIV disputes this and goes to war with Spain to protect the rights of his wife.
 
Earlier War of Spanish Succession ensues.
With 14-years old Margaret-Theresa crowned as Margaret I of Spain, while Louis XIV disputes this and goes to war with Spain to protect the rights of his wife.

Basically. Maria Theresa had given up her rights at the time of her marriage, I believe.
 
Basically. Maria Theresa had given up her rights at the time of her marriage, I believe.

Yes, but Spain never paid up the huge dowry, which was supposedly the condition for renouncing her succession rights. That was Louis XIV's justification for the War of Devolution.
 
Yes, but Spain never paid up the huge dowry, which was supposedly the condition for renouncing her succession rights. That was Louis XIV's justification for the War of Devolution.

Indeed. Thank you all, I'll be a bit more confident moving forward now. I don't expect it to be an issue for a while, but if it does I can act accordingly.
 
Yes, but Spain never paid up the huge dowry, which was supposedly the condition for renouncing her succession rights. That was Louis XIV's justification for the War of Devolution.

Right. Louis XIV's claim in the War of Devolution was actually much sillier, though (the dowry was part of it, but not the whole thing). Basically, in Brabant, inheritance law was that the daughter of a first wife inherited ahead of the son of a second wife. This was for private property inheritance. So Louis's claim was that his wife, as the daughter of the first wife of the late Duke of Brabant, should inherit ahead of her half-brother, the son of the late duke's second wife. I assume he was willing to trade Brabant itself for more attractive and contiguous gains in Flanders and Hainaut. Silly!

At any rate, Louis XIV is certainly going to *claim* the Spanish throne for his wife (or his son). I just don't think the Spanish are going to agree to that. They'll recognize Maria Theresa's younger sister Margaret Theresa.

Who does she marry, though? OTL, she married her cousin the Emperor. But probably the Spanish aren't too interested in recreating the empire of Charles V. Are there other attractive, pro-Habsburg candidates? My memory is that Leopold I was the only surviving Austrian Habsburg at this point. Besides the French royal family and the Austrian Habsburgs, I believe the only surviving descendants of Philip II are the House of Savoy.

Charles Emmanuel II, who turned 31 in 1665, had actually been widowed a year before. In OTL, he quickly remarried to a cousin. But in the ATL, he'd probably be an attractive husband for Margaret Theresa. He's a less confrontational choice as a husband for an heiress than Leopold - for one thing, he's Louis XIV's first cousin, and Savoy was friendly to France at the time.
 
Right. Louis XIV's claim in the War of Devolution was actually much sillier, though (the dowry was part of it, but not the whole thing). Basically, in Brabant, inheritance law was that the daughter of a first wife inherited ahead of the son of a second wife. This was for private property inheritance. So Louis's claim was that his wife, as the daughter of the first wife of the late Duke of Brabant, should inherit ahead of her half-brother, the son of the late duke's second wife. I assume he was willing to trade Brabant itself for more attractive and contiguous gains in Flanders and Hainaut. Silly!

At any rate, Louis XIV is certainly going to *claim* the Spanish throne for his wife (or his son). I just don't think the Spanish are going to agree to that. They'll recognize Maria Theresa's younger sister Margaret Theresa.

Who does she marry, though? OTL, she married her cousin the Emperor. But probably the Spanish aren't too interested in recreating the empire of Charles V. Are there other attractive, pro-Habsburg candidates? My memory is that Leopold I was the only surviving Austrian Habsburg at this point. Besides the French royal family and the Austrian Habsburgs, I believe the only surviving descendants of Philip II are the House of Savoy.

Charles Emmanuel II, who turned 31 in 1665, had actually been widowed a year before. In OTL, he quickly remarried to a cousin. But in the ATL, he'd probably be an attractive husband for Margaret Theresa. He's a less confrontational choice as a husband for an heiress than Leopold - for one thing, he's Louis XIV's first cousin, and Savoy was friendly to France at the time.

Could John of Austria also make a play? He's illegitmate but well liked by the Spanish nobles, very capable and still the son of Philip IV. He'd look like a preferable choice to French dominance maybe.
 
Could John of Austria also make a play? He's illegitmate but well liked by the Spanish nobles, very capable and still the son of Philip IV. He'd look like a preferable choice to French dominance maybe.

I don't think a bastard has much of a shot, and Queen Mariana hated him.

Maybe he could marry his half-sister...they're probably less closely related genetically than Philip IV and Mariana were, and I remember Henry VIII talked about marrying Mary to Richmond, so it's not something that was totally taboo to early modern minds.
 
Right. Louis XIV's claim in the War of Devolution was actually much sillier, though (the dowry was part of it, but not the whole thing). Basically, in Brabant, inheritance law was that the daughter of a first wife inherited ahead of the son of a second wife. This was for private property inheritance. So Louis's claim was that his wife, as the daughter of the first wife of the late Duke of Brabant, should inherit ahead of her half-brother, the son of the late duke's second wife. I assume he was willing to trade Brabant itself for more attractive and contiguous gains in Flanders and Hainaut. Silly!

At any rate, Louis XIV is certainly going to *claim* the Spanish throne for his wife (or his son). I just don't think the Spanish are going to agree to that. They'll recognize Maria Theresa's younger sister Margaret Theresa.

Who does she marry, though? OTL, she married her cousin the Emperor. But probably the Spanish aren't too interested in recreating the empire of Charles V. Are there other attractive, pro-Habsburg candidates? My memory is that Leopold I was the only surviving Austrian Habsburg at this point. Besides the French royal family and the Austrian Habsburgs, I believe the only surviving descendants of Philip II are the House of Savoy.

Charles Emmanuel II, who turned 31 in 1665, had actually been widowed a year before. In OTL, he quickly remarried to a cousin. But in the ATL, he'd probably be an attractive husband for Margaret Theresa. He's a less confrontational choice as a husband for an heiress than Leopold - for one thing, he's Louis XIV's first cousin, and Savoy was friendly to France at the time.


Um it wasn't that "silly" it was actually pretty clever. And most thought that Carlos II would die soon so Louis probably wanted to occupy the Spanish Netherlands and force the Spanish to hand it over, in exchange for formally relinquishing his family's Spanish rights.

And to a husband, the best choice would be this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Charles_Joseph_of_Austria
Karl Joseph was a half brother of the Emperor, close in age and a Habsburg to boot. Pretty much the perfect candidate for King-Consort.

I don't think a bastard has much of a shot, and Queen Mariana hated him.

Maybe he could marry his half-sister...they're probably less closely related genetically than Philip IV and Mariana were, and I remember Henry VIII talked about marrying Mary to Richmond, so it's not something that was totally taboo to early modern minds.

Juan Jose wouldn't have a leg to stand on while Margaret Theresa is alive. But is she dies childless and the next in line is Maria Theresa, then the bastard is gonna look pretty attractive to keep the nation's independence.

But he would NEVER marry his half-sister. There was NO precedence whatsoever in the history of Christendom. In fact it would be more Eastern, in the types of Egypt and Persia, then anything in Europe. And Henry VIII never took that idea seriously.
 
Um it wasn't that "silly" it was actually pretty clever. And most thought that Carlos II would die soon so Louis probably wanted to occupy the Spanish Netherlands and force the Spanish to hand it over, in exchange for formally relinquishing his family's Spanish rights.

And to a husband, the best choice would be this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Charles_Joseph_of_Austria
Karl Joseph was a half brother of the Emperor, close in age and a Habsburg to boot. Pretty much the perfect candidate for King-Consort.



Juan Jose wouldn't have a leg to stand on while Margaret Theresa is alive. But is she dies childless and the next in line is Maria Theresa, then the bastard is gonna look pretty attractive to keep the nation's independence.

But he would NEVER marry his half-sister. There was NO precedence whatsoever in the history of Christendom. In fact it would be more Eastern, in the types of Egypt and Persia, then anything in Europe. And Henry VIII never took that idea seriously.

The problem with Charles Joseph is that he died in January 1664 - probably before any marriage for Margaret Theresa would occur. The next most obvious candidate is the ruler of Tyrol, Archduke Sigismund Franz - he also predeceased Philip IV. At that point you're out of junior Habsburgs, although you could maybe butterfly Sigismund Franz's death. I think it's harder to butterfly Charles Joseph's.
 
They both died of pulmonary diseases, so I don't see how butterflying away one is harder than another.
 
They both died of pulmonary diseases, so I don't see how butterflying away one is harder than another.

Because Karl Joseph's life isn't going to be much different, since he, most likely, dies before he'd be shipped off to Spain to marry Margaret Theresa. Sigismund Franz probably lives long enough to get shipped off, so his life is significantly different.
 
Depends on just WHEN Charles II dies. If he dies pre-1664, then we can get Margaret I and Prince Consort Carlos.
 
Depends on just WHEN Charles II dies. If he dies pre-1664, then we can get Margaret I and Prince Consort Carlos.

She's still only 12 when he dies, in January 1664. The wedding, and his move to Spain, is probably going to wait at least until she turns 13 in the summer of 1664, even if there's no Prince of Asturias. And he'd be King Carlos II - Spain doesn't have Prince Consorts.
 
I thought Crown Matrimonial was only Portuguese thing and even then a consort got King's title only after a male heir is born?
And if Philip IV understands he won't have male child, he'll transfer betrothal of Margaret Theresa from Leopold to younger brother as soon as Maria-Theresa gets married. That's 1661.
3 years for different circumstances of life.

Leopold and Margaret were betrothed pretty early and he ordered a series of portraits from Velasces to see how his future wife grows up.
 
I thought Crown Matrimonial was only Portuguese thing and even then a consort got King's title only after a male heir is born?
And if Philip IV understands he won't have male child, he'll transfer betrothal of Margaret Theresa from Leopold to younger brother as soon as Maria-Theresa gets married. That's 1661.
3 years for different circumstances of life.

Leopold and Margaret were betrothed pretty early and he ordered a series of portraits from Velasces to see how his future wife grows up.

Philip IV isn't going to be sure he won't have a male child for some time after 1661. After all, nobody expected Carlos II to live and that didn't change much.

And even if they're *betrothed* in 1661, that doesn't mean Karl Joseph goes to Madrid in 1661.

I don't think that husbands of queens could only claim the throne after producing an heir. Ferdinand was king before the birth of and after the death of, his and Isabella's only son. Francisco de Asis was called King of Spain from the time of his marriage in 1846.
 
Depends on just WHEN Charles II dies. If he dies pre-1664, then we can get Margaret I and Prince Consort Carlos.

I agree. After all he died of an infection, not a disease so its easy to butterfly that.

I thought Crown Matrimonial was only Portuguese thing and even then a consort got King's title only after a male heir is born?
And if Philip IV understands he won't have male child, he'll transfer betrothal of Margaret Theresa from Leopold to younger brother as soon as Maria-Theresa gets married. That's 1661.
3 years for different circumstances of life.

Leopold and Margaret were betrothed pretty early and he ordered a series of portraits from Velasces to see how his future wife grows up.

But yeah there was no precedence for a Prince-Consort in Spain or any county really at this point. He would be either co-King or King consort.
 
Philip IV isn't going to be sure he won't have a male child for some time after 1661. After all, nobody expected Carlos II to live and that didn't change much.

And even if they're *betrothed* in 1661, that doesn't mean Karl Joseph goes to Madrid in 1661.

If D. Felipe IV has no son, or Carlos the Bewitched dies before him, the Austrian Hapsburgs might view it as prudent to have a johnny-on-the-spot by having Karl Josef/Sigmund Franz in Madrid in the event of D. Felipe's death.

[/QUOTE] I don't think that husbands of queens could only claim the throne after producing an heir. Ferdinand was king before the birth of and after the death of, his and Isabella's only son. Francisco de Asis was called King of Spain from the time of his marriage in 1846.[/QUOTE]

It worked like that in Portugal - which is why Auguste de Beauharnais was not king-consort, since he never managed to knock Maria II up. And D. Fernando II was not only jure uxoris king during Maria II's life, he was suo jure king during the regency for D. Pedro V.

Spain would AFAIK call Karl Josef/Sigmund Franz king as Carlos II or Sigismundo I or Francisco I from the moment he married Margarita.

Though Leopold I is getting screwed out of a wife. Who might make a fitting Holy Roman Empress? Klaudia Felizitas of Tyrol?
 
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