Maria Theresa Marries Fredrick the Great

What If Francis I dies in battle against Fredrick of Prussia. Would or Could Fredrick marry Maria Theresa to unite Austria and Prussia? Would this lead to an early formation of a Germany Empire? Would this Empire if it exists be an important colonial power? what kind of butterflies would this create?
 
Frederick the Great died without issue OTL; the throne went to his nephew. Rumors at the time suggested he was homosexual but in any case he didn't appear to have much interest in women at all. His wife OTL was pensioned out to an estate of her own and Frederick only visited once a year.

If he does marry Maria Therese, how is succession going to be handled? Does he take one for the team and go ahead and father a child, or as many children as necessary until a suitable male heir is born? Or does she have an affair which Frederick turns a blind eye to, and acknowledges the issue of that union as his heir (unlikely, but stranger things have happened)? What does this do to his other achievements?
 
Then we probably do have a large Central European power, albeit one more heavily skewed toward Catholicism than Prussia/Germany was OTL. Austria-Prussia (or should we call it the Holy Roman Empire, as the Habsburgs in Austria regarded themselves?) is probably better integrated than OTL Austria-Hungary was (given that German alone is the national language and that the union is personal as well as political). If they survive Napoleon then an earlier Germanic union is definitely in the cards (perhaps picking up the pieces in smaller German states left wrecked by Napoleon's armies).
 
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well then again Nap will have a difficult time taking out this Empire. Afterall Prussia fell to Nap and the army remained in tack and contiuned to fight him. Now combine that with the massive population avaliable to Prussia to train into their army then you got a very powerful country.
 
Napoleon either thinks twice and decides not to march East (taking Spain and Italy instead), or abandons the invasion of Russia. He can't take on this enlarged Germanic empire and Russia, not in the same lifetime, not with France still hurting from the Revolution and England still very much in the game.
 
Napoleon II would be a different person than OTL Napoleon II, who was the issue of Napoleon and his second wife, an Austrian noblewoman. There's not a lot of indication what kind of leader OTL Napoleon II would have been, as he died young of tuberculosis.

Let's make this interesting and have Napoleon's second wife come from a power other than Austria: perhaps a marriage to a Spanish noblewoman to ease conquest of that country, or a collateral of another European house (probably not England--their ties are closer to the Germans at this point). Maybe Sweden, which Napoleon never posed a direct threat to, or even Russia (as insurance against the expansionist German state we've created ;-) ).

A healthy Napoleon II, growing up under the tutelage of two great royal houses and with the resources of a successful French Empire at his command, against Frederick's heir, who though not a Habsburg has the backing and resources of that great house as well as the second-largest country in Europe. That sounds interesting...
 
I think the 3rd daughter of Charles 4th of Spain would be a good choice for Naps new wife, this way his son would have a claim to the Spanish throne rather than just appointing your brother king
 
Might be problematic, as Spain is still run by the Habsburgs in the late 1700's. Maybe another noble family in Spain would work. The Savoyards are another possibility.
 
Might be problematic, as Spain is still run by the Habsburgs in the late 1700's.

No it's not. The Hapsburgs are gone after the War of Spanish Succession ends in 1713; after that the Bourbons are in charge.

Also, the Butterfly effect is almost certainly going to kill OTL Napoleon and the French Revolution; a marriage between Fredrick the Great and Maria Theresa will certainly stop the War of Austrian Succession from happening, as well as the follow-up Seven Years War. That's two major wars that France participated in which occur prior to Napoleon's birth, more than enough to butterfly Napoleon away.

Not having those wars happen as per OTL will also have major effects on France's economic situation; no financial crisis or a different one means the French Revolution either doesn't happen or is very different from how it went historically. Then there's also issues like whether the American Revolution, which had a major role in worsening France's financial woes and encouraging Enlightenment thought, particularly among the Frenchmen who fought alongside the US (it's no coincidence one of the early leaders of the Revolution was the Marquis de Lafayette).
 
No it's not. The Hapsburgs are gone after the War of Spanish Succession ends in 1713; after that the Bourbons are in charge.

Also, the Butterfly effect is almost certainly going to kill OTL Napoleon and the French Revolution; a marriage between Fredrick the Great and Maria Theresa will certainly stop the War of Austrian Succession from happening, as well as the follow-up Seven Years War. That's two major wars that France participated in which occur prior to Napoleon's birth, more than enough to butterfly Napoleon away.

Not having those wars happen as per OTL will also have major effects on France's economic situation; no financial crisis or a different one means the French Revolution either doesn't happen or is very different from how it went historically. Then there's also issues like whether the American Revolution, which had a major role in worsening France's financial woes and encouraging Enlightenment thought, particularly among the Frenchmen who fought alongside the US (it's no coincidence one of the early leaders of the Revolution was the Marquis de Lafayette).

Sorry about that; misremembered the timeline. That's what I get for doing this stuff off the cuff. :p

It also depends upon whether or not this is Maria Theresa's second or third marriage (she was first married off at age five in a purely dynastic arrangement, but he died young). If she picks Frederick in 1733 rather than Joseph in 1736, then most of OTL 18th century does get butterflied away. American Revolution may still happen; the colonists did have eyes on the Ohio Valley which was claimed by France, so the French and Indian War proceeds on schedule. If George III still tries to stick the colonies with the bill for the war, there's still a revolution and most of Europe would have looked for a way to stab the English in the back. Spain and Holland also provided significant aid; Frederick the Great was one of the first crowned heads in Europe to recognize the new USA diplomatically (Mitford, Frederick the Great, 1970). Under this scenario a man named Napoleon Bonaparte is still born but he's probably going to spend his entire life on Corsica. A French Revolution may still happen (the pressure has existed for centuries) but it may not resemble OTL French Revolution. Voltaire, Diderot, and all their buddies are still in business but perhaps not with the same sense of urgency.

If however she waits until she's Empress Dowager in 1765, then France has already fought its economically devastating wars and the Enlightenment is in full swing. Napoleon still happens on schedule. This makes Maria Theresa 48 when she marries Frederick, which is a bit old to be bearing an heir to the throne and considering that she's had 16 children in 19 years (which at least proved she was fertile) it's debatable whether or not her body can handle another pregnancy (for one thing, menopause may have already set in; for another, endometriosis is very likely after that many births in such quick succession). But it is still possible.
 
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If they survive Napoleon then an earlier Germanic union is definitely in the cards (perhaps picking up the pieces in smaller German states left wrecked by Napoleon's armies).
German. Germanic union never occured, so earlier would not be quite the right word.
 
Isn't Frederick a Protestant and Maria Theresa a Catholic ? Frederick is going to have to convert to marry her (there being no way the Head of the House of Habsburg would convert the other way). In so doing, he may end up having to reconquer his kingdom with Austrian arms from an uprising against the Papists...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Susano

Banned
Isn't Frederick a Protestant and Maria Theresa a Catholic ? Frederick is going to have to convert to marry her (there being no way the Head of the House of Habsburg would convert the other way). In so doing, he may end up having to reconquer his kingdom with Austrian arms from an uprising against the Papists...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

An uprising that didnt happen in Saxony? The Hohenzollerns (Calvinist) already didnt have the religion of their population (Lutheran) anyways,and Brandenburg-Prussia was for politcial reasons one of the first states where religious tolerance was forced down on the population...

Its still a ridiccolous suggestion, in any case. For one thing, while Frederick could theoretically convert, the fact remains that the Hohenzollerns were reformed, and hence would never have been in the considerations for husbands for Maria Theresia.

Besides, Lorraine was a perfect choice, because it was low-standing enough and without any sidebranches, so "Habsburg" could further exist through it. That wouldnt have been possible with Hohenzollern...

Also, as comments to what else has been said in the thread: The German Empire (the Old Empire, the First Reich) did exist back then. Mostly on paper only, but the Holy Roman Empire (of the German Nation) did officially still exist. And that Frederick II was gay is no rumour, but pretty much established historical fact...

Now, for comment son other posts:
And its no rumour Frederick II was gay. I think we can pretty much accept it as esta
 

General Zod

Banned
And that Frederick II was gay is no rumour, but pretty much established historical fact...

It is also a pretty much established historical fact that many gay men were and are able to ahem stiffen themselves enough to manage some regular sex with women too and father a progeny for various reasons (desire or need for children, supporting the closet facade). This happened all the time as far as gay royalty and nobles were involved, they married to ensure a progeny for the dynasty, fathered some children, and then frolicked with various male favourites, so IMO it is wholly reasonable to assume that if Frederick and Maria Theresa marry young they produce several legitimate issue together, even if they spend most of the time with their respective lovers (IIRC Therese was a rather lusty woman, so unlikely she can satisfy herself with a definitely less than enthused husband). Apart from the sex, Frederick and Maria Theresa had similar interests and mindsets, so they could even strike a genuine friendship and have an overall happy marriage. The main point of contention might indeed be relgion, she was a conservative Catholic, him a skeptic. But maybe his influence, if they marry young, leads her to a more secularized attitude.
 

Susano

Banned
Oh,I never denied that he could fatehr childsfor dynastic reasons. Btw, his personal religious convictions were as unimportant as his homosexuality -what matters was that he was officially a Calvinist, and she a catholic, from the catholic archhouse, nontheless. And judging from comments IOTL,Frederick had arather low opinion of Maria, but then, he wasnt only gay, he waspretty msyogynist, too...

In short,w hat matters isnot what couldve bound or seperate them personally, but politcially, and that was quite a lot speaking against even the faintest hint of a possibility of such a marriage...
 
Oh,I never denied that he could fatehr childsfor dynastic reasons. Btw, his personal religious convictions were as unimportant as his homosexuality -what matters was that he was officially a Calvinist, and she a catholic, from the catholic archhouse, nontheless. And judging from comments IOTL,Frederick had arather low opinion of Maria, but then, he wasnt only gay, he waspretty msyogynist, too...

In short,w hat matters isnot what couldve bound or seperate them personally, but politcially, and that was quite a lot speaking against even the faintest hint of a possibility of such a marriage...

France was an even bigger threat to Austria than the Hohenzollerns, being the dominant power on the continent (and there was absolutely no love lost between the Bourbons and Habsburgs, their common Catholicism aside). Frederick's military and organizational prowess having already been asserted, Maria Theresa might see a dynastic marriage as a means of containing the biggest threat to the Habsburg regime. The two dynasties are merged, France and Russia (which under Catherine II is modernizing and becoming just as big a threat) are contained, and both parties to the marriage go off and do their own thing after they manage to eke out one heir to the throne. If Frederick and Maria Theresa find a competent bisexual chancellor to run the daily affairs of the realm, then everyone wins out. :D

It's almost in the realm of ASB's but not quite.
 

General Zod

Banned
France was an even bigger threat to Austria than the Hohenzollerns, being the dominant power on the continent (and there was absolutely no love lost between the Bourbons and Habsburgs, their common Catholicism aside). Frederick's military and organizational prowess having already been asserted, Maria Theresa might see a dynastic marriage as a means of containing the biggest threat to the Habsburg regime. The two dynasties are merged, France and Russia (which under Catherine II is modernizing and becoming just as big a threat) are contained, and both parties to the marriage go off and do their own thing after they manage to eke out one heir to the throne. If Frederick and Maria Theresa find a competent bisexual chancellor to run the daily affairs of the realm, then everyone wins out. :D

It's almost in the realm of ASB's but not quite.

One heir to the throne is far too little, given how big infant mortality in the 1700s went. To really secure the Austro-Prussian dynasty (otherwise little point to the PoD) in the perception of contemporaries you need at the very least two, better three, male heirs and as many female heirs are not indispensable but bloody useful to secure alliances through dynastic marriages. Although the revokation of the Salic law and the strong Maria Theresa precedent itself makes the female heirs almost just as good as reigning Queens and Empresses. To make things simple, let's say two sons and two daughters. Frederick will need to make a sacrifice for the dynasty some more times. Again, he was a man dedicated to duty, so it's feasible. Aalso again, I assume that it's not too unreasonable to assume that he can strike a genuine intellectual friendship with Maria Theresa, which would ease things by dampening Frederick's mysogyny and make a more functional family atmosphere for their scions to be raised in.
 
what i was going at when i started this was that Theresa's husband Francis I dies during the course of the War of Austrian Succession say around 1743. The wars goes worse than normal and is forced to marry Fredrick. lets say her first son Joesph dies from some childhood illness which was common back then. This way France has been involved in some of the War and most likely the 7yrs war will happen between Britain and France. Which will as a result bankrupt France causing the Revolution and Napoleon
 
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