Margaret, The Maid of Norway Survives - Butterflies???

isabella

The Professor said:
Oh I just think that they shouldn't be discounted as completely lacking support. Any changes to the succession will impact their claims too, even if those claims are lesser.

Now that's interesting. Who are you currently thinking is best placed to be Isabella's husband TTL?
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Either Charles, Duke of Calabria or Hugh of Burgundy...
Philip of Burgundy (Mahaut’s son) is five years younger than her, Odo of BurgIndy would NOT be taken in consideration while his older brother live, Robert of Artois is quite landless, John III of Brabant again is five years younger than Isabella, Philip of Valois would bring no advantage and the Evreux were not of the right age (her half-uncle too old for her, his son way too young)
 

Ivan Lupo

isabella said:
Either Charles, Duke of Calabria or Hugh of Burgundy...
Philip of Burgundy (Mahaut’s son) is five years younger than her, Odo of BurgIndy would NOT be taken in consideration while his older brother live, Robert of Artois is quite landless, John III of Brabant again is five years younger than Isabella, Philip of Valois would bring no advantage and the Evreux were not of the right age (her half-uncle too old for her, his son way too young)
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Charles, Duke of Calabria makes the most sense the more I think about it. Two of Philip IV's sons are already married to two different daughters of the Duke of Burgundy, so I tend to think that marrying her to Hugh could be a bit redundant. However, marrying into Naples gives France an ally in Italy, grants the Capetian dynasty further influence in the County of Provence (held by the House of Anjou), and also grants the French royal house a future claimant to the nominal Kingdom of Jerusalem, all while putting pressure squarely on Rome.
 

isabella

Ivan Lupo said:
Charles, Duke of Calabria makes the most sense the more I think about it. Two of Philip IV's sons are already married to two different daughters of the Duke of Burgundy, so I tend to think that marrying her to Hugh could be a bit redundant. However, marrying into Naples gives France an ally in Italy, grants the Capetian dynasty further influence in the County of Provence (held by the House of Anjou), and also grants the French royal house a future claimant to the nominal Kingdom of Jerusalem, all while putting pressure squarely on Rome.
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No, only Louis was married to Hugh’s sister Margaret. His younger brothers were married to the daughters of the Count of Burgundy by Mahaut of Artois... Still Charles of Calabria is the one who make most sense also for me and Provence was part of the lands who Charles was to inherit so...
That would give to Isabella’s son (Charles/Robert) a strong French power-base and put him in condition to not have his claim dismissed as OTL, specially if he also married Jeanne of France
 
Sārthākā

Sārthākā

Margaret's and Edward's child would inevitably unite the Kingdoms under a tight Personal Union, however I wonder how the European Powers of France, the Holy Roman Empire and the Pope reacts? Also I wonder what the consequences of a united British Island 500 years early means for Ireland?
 
The Professor

The Professor

isabella said:
No, only Louis was married to Hugh’s sister Margaret. His younger brothers were married to the daughters of the Count of Burgundy by Mahaut of Artois... Still Charles of Calabria is the one who make most sense also for me and Provence was part of the lands who Charles was to inherit so...
That would give to Isabella’s son (Charles/Robert) a strong French power-base and put him in condition to not have his claim dismissed as OTL, specially if he also married Jeanne of France
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Technically Provence wasn't part of France until around the mid 1400s. It's still an imperial fief at this time albeit associated with the holder of Anjou (and Naples).
So it depends which is more favourable to Louis: shoring up the southeast borders or internal alliance.
 

Ivan Lupo

The Professor said:
Technically Provence wasn't part of France until around the mid 1400s. It's still an imperial fief at this time albeit associated with the holder of Anjou (and Naples).
So it depends which is more favourable to Louis: shoring up the southeast borders or internal alliance.
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It wasn't very long before this period when Louis XI married Marguerite of Provence, one of the 4 surviving daughters of Ramon Berenguer IV and who arguably had the strongest claim to the county as the eldest daughter. Instead, the county was bequeathed to the youngest daughter Beatrice, who married the first Angevin king of Naples (or rather, Sicily before Pere III of Aragon took the namesake island and split the kingdom in two). Isabella represents the strengthening of that claim as a direct descendant of Marguerite and her placement as Queen of Naples would serve to alienate Provence further from the HRE and more toward France and the Capetians.
 
The Professor

The Professor

Ivan Lupo said:
It wasn't very long before this period when Louis XI married Marguerite of Provence, one of the 4 surviving daughters of Ramon Berenguer IV and who arguably had the strongest claim to the county as the eldest daughter. Instead, the county was bequeathed to the youngest daughter Beatrice, who married the first Angevin king of Naples (or rather, Sicily before Pere III of Aragon took the namesake island and split the kingdom in two). Isabella represents the strengthening of that claim as a direct descendant of Marguerite and her placement as Queen of Naples would serve to alienate Provence further from the HRE and more toward France and the Capetians.
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I would dispute that "arguably strongest claim". None of the kingdoms had succession laws where the eldest daughter had inherent rights to titles. Sole daughters mostly yes, eldest of several not really.
 
Sārthākā

Sārthākā

The Professor said:
I would dispute that "arguably strongest claim". None of the kingdoms had succession laws where the eldest daughter had inherent rights to titles. Sole daughters mostly yes, eldest of several not really.
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yeah only daughters tended to become queens, not because of them being eldest or anything.
 

Prince de Pringondani

IMO Beatrice inherited the Provence because her elder sisters were married with crowned Kings (Louis IX Henri II Richard of Cornwall (Roman King))while Charles at that point only inherited the county of Anjou
 

isabella

Ivan Lupo said:
It wasn't very long before this period when Louis XI married Marguerite of Provence, one of the 4 surviving daughters of Ramon Berenguer IV and who arguably had the strongest claim to the county as the eldest daughter. Instead, the county was bequeathed to the youngest daughter Beatrice, who married the first Angevin king of Naples (or rather, Sicily before Pere III of Aragon took the namesake island and split the kingdom in two). Isabella represents the strengthening of that claim as a direct descendant of Marguerite and her placement as Queen of Naples would serve to alienate Provence further from the HRE and more toward France and the Capetians.
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Exactly and I would add who Beatrice’s husband Charles was also Louis‘ IX younger brother (so children of Isabella and Charles of Calabria would be male line descendants of Louis VIII of France and as such Capetians). If Isabella’s eldest son married also Jeanne (daughter of Louis XI) then we would have two female lines (the most senior and the closest under blood proximity) plus a junior male line who would mean who the new King is still a Frenchman and Capetian NOT a foreigner (like OTL Edward III of England).
Jeanne is born in 1512, Isabella would marry Charles of Calabria (3 years younger than her) at the earliest in that year. If they had a son in the first three/four years of marriage is pretty likely who Isabella would want Jeanne for her son and Jeanne’s maternal relatives strongly supported that match
 

Ivan Lupo

If we're talking about claims, any children of Prince Edward and Margaret of Norway, would also have a claim of their own to Provence, through Edward's grandmother Eleanor of Provence. It would be unlikely for that claim to come to anything, but a marriage between England and Naples gives Edward's children access to two claims to Provence to Isabella's one... possibly three if Edward is shrewd enough to claim he inherited the claim of his uncle (okay, first cousin once removed) Edmund of Cornwall, who himself inherited the claim of his mother Sancha of Provence, the third sister of the four Provence sisters. Edmund had died childless and Cornwall reverted to the the English crown, presumably along with any of Edmund's other lands and claims.
 

isabella

Ivan Lupo said:
If we're talking about claims, any children of Prince Edward and Margaret of Norway, would also have a claim of their own to Provence, through Edward's grandmother Eleanor of Provence. It would be unlikely for that claim to come to anything, but a marriage between England and Naples gives Edward's children access to two claims to Provence to Isabella's one... possibly three if Edward is shrewd enough to claim he inherited the claim of his uncle (okay, first cousin once removed) Edmund of Cornwall, who himself inherited the claim of his mother Sancha of Provence, the third sister of the four Provence sisters. Edmund had died childless and Cornwall reverted to the the English crown, presumably along with any of Edmund's other lands and claims.
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We are talking about Isabella of France marrying the heir of Naples (and count of Provence) and their son marrying princess Jeanne and claiming the French crown... That would take away any kind of pretension from Eleanor and Sancha’s heirs as that would reunite the bloodline of Marguerite (the eldest sister) and Beatrice (the effective heiress) and once Marguerite’s senior heir (aka Jeanne) married the effective holder of Provence (aka Isabelle’s son by Charles, Duke of Calabria) nobody would be able to raise any kind of claim over Provence
 
The Professor

The Professor

isabella said:
We are talking about Isabella of France marrying the heir of Naples (and count of Provence) and their son marrying princess Jeanne and claiming the French crown... That would take away any kind of pretension from Eleanor and Sancha’s heirs as that would reunite the bloodline of Marguerite (the eldest sister) and Beatrice (the effective heiress) and once Marguerite’s senior heir (aka Jeanne) married the effective holder of Provence (aka Isabelle’s son by Charles, Duke of Calabria) nobody would be able to raise any kind of claim over Provence
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I'd quibble "senior heir"
Do we know the Arlesian noble succession laws at this time?
England ranked all female lines equally regardless of age but allowed the current holder to will his succession. With oversight by the Crown. Wealth passed on equally but not title. Of course English Law wouldn't apply to Provence.
(Actual) Salic Law only recognised sole female inheritance. Iirc will of the holder or his liegelord could also apply. But Salic Law wouldn't apply to Provence either.
The lack of dispute by the kings or the Emperor suggests to me that Ramon's Will was considered legal in determining his heir above any ranking of his daughters.
 

isabella

The Professor said:
I'd quibble "senior heir"
Do we know the Arlesian noble succession laws at this time?
England ranked all female lines equally regardless of age but allowed the current holder to will his succession. With oversight by the Crown. Wealth passed on equally but not title. Of course English Law wouldn't apply to Provence.
(Actual) Salic Law only recognised sole female inheritance. Iirc will of the holder or his liegelord could also apply. But Salic Law wouldn't apply to Provence either.
The lack of dispute by the kings or the Emperor suggests to me that Ramon's Will was considered legal in determining his heir above any ranking of his daughters.
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England protested about that will and Beatrice’s inheritance but Louis, the one who would have the strongest case against it was satisfied with the wedding of Beatrice to his own brother... And in any case Ramon’s will was enough for determining the succession as the holder was free to decide to what do with his lands (selling, giving then to a son or as dowry to a daughter) and deciding who would inherited them was surely among his rights
 
The Professor

The Professor

isabella said:
England protested about that will and Beatrice’s inheritance but Louis, the one who would have the strongest case against it was satisfied with the wedding of Beatrice to his own brother... And in any case Ramon’s will was enough for determining the succession as the holder was free to decide to what do with his lands (selling, giving then to a son or as dowry to a daughter) and deciding who would inherited them was surely among his rights
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Wasn't it the loss of dowry that was protested?
In any case it wouldn't make the eldest the senior heir unless that was the expected succession under Provencal/Arlesian custom or law.
 
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