As someone who uses GIMP, I’m excited to see what it’ll look like.
Map Thread XXI
- Thread starter fluttersky
- Start date
-
- Tags
- map map thread
- Status
Bit off topic, but if I was deciding what to put up next for, say, a Patreon account, which of these sounds most likely to attract interest?
1. A redo of this wacky 1970s SF coffee table book Galactic Aliens (1979) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive with improved and more interesting alien menaces
2. The world of Robert Heinlein's "The Puppet Masters", map and detailed world description
3. A pure alien space bat scenario; a description of the modern day world in a reality where such human-toon mashups as Who Framed Roger Rabbit and Bonkers are just ordinary history
4. An utterly random alternate history map 1840s map based on Victoria 2 (Victoria II - Wikipedia ) variations
5. An exploration of the world of William Gibson's "Sprawl" trilogy Sprawl trilogy - Wikipedia
1. A redo of this wacky 1970s SF coffee table book Galactic Aliens (1979) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive with improved and more interesting alien menaces
2. The world of Robert Heinlein's "The Puppet Masters", map and detailed world description
3. A pure alien space bat scenario; a description of the modern day world in a reality where such human-toon mashups as Who Framed Roger Rabbit and Bonkers are just ordinary history
4. An utterly random alternate history map 1840s map based on Victoria 2 (Victoria II - Wikipedia ) variations
5. An exploration of the world of William Gibson's "Sprawl" trilogy Sprawl trilogy - Wikipedia
My take on the world of Lenin-1 from GURPS Infinite Worlds. Credit to Rvbomally for the inspiration from his take on this scenario.
(this is a repost of my prior map as I did some changes to this scenario)
The point of divergence is that Henry Wallace is able to keep his position as vice president in July 1944 due to Roosevelt deciding to keep Henry Wallace on the ticket instead of Harry Truman despite the resistance of conservative Democrats. When Roosevelt dies in April 1945, Henry Wallace would become president of the United States just as Harry Truman did in OTL 1945. President Henry Wallace would engage in a pacifist pro-Soviet foreign policy of disarmament and appeasement of Stalin, first granting the Soviets an occupation zone in North Japan and ceding Stalin the cities of Berlin and Vienna. Wallace would withdraw American troops from Germany and Japan soon after, with Soviet troops replacing American troops. With the withdrawal of American troops and financial support to anti-communists in Europe, communists would expand their control over Europe, first with France in 1947, Italy in 1948, Greece in 1949, and Iran in 1953. In 1948, President Henry Wallace would barely survive re-election against Thomas Dewey, continuing his foreign and domestic policy agenda of social reform, disarmament, and economic readjustment. In 1949, Mao's communists would conquer all of mainland China, destroying the remnants of the KMT after Chinese communists landed in Taiwan and crushed Chaing Kai Shek's army for good. The Republicans in America would squawk about the loss of China, but most Americans were disinterested in another land war in Asia, even as Korea went communist in 1950, Indochina in 1953, and the Philippines in 1956.
Churchill would become prime minister again in 1951 and engage in a policy of containment. The loss of India in 1947 with the establishment of the Socialist Republic of India would turn the British to contain communists in Africa and the Middle East. The British would intervene against communist guerillas in Malaya, Kenya, and Aden in the 1950s. Although the strains of keeping Britain in the containment business would be difficult for Churchill to advertise to the British people, being dethroned as prime minister in 1956. Churchill would retire from British politics altogether and accepted a history professorship at Fulton University in Missouri. In 1952, Eisenhower would be elected president after 20 years of Democrats in the white house and would respond to communist movements in the Western hemisphere, overthrowing Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954 and landing American marines in Havana in 1959 to quell Castro's communists. President Nixon would continue Eisenhower's policy, intervening in the Dominican Republic and Peru, although this would accelerate Eienhower's domestic statism even further as the postwar economy ran out of steam. In 1974, during the height of the winter of content, British socialist and leftist parties would win elections and declare a socialist republic, and abolish the monarchy, forcing the monarchy to flee to Canada. In the same year, India would proclaim its independence from the Soviets and China and declared itself a People's Republic after detonating a nuclear weapon. In 1981, a popular front of communists, socialists, and leftists would win elections in Mexico and establish a communist state in Mexico, drawing no response from President Ted Kennedy.
By 1989, the communist world is in a tripolar struggle between the Soviet Union, India, and China for dominance of the true leader of communism. The Soviet Union is by far the most powerful empire the world has ever seen, exerting a sphere of influence over all of Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. The Soviet Union is still very hardline communist and Stalinist-lite under the rule of Suslov and Grishin, although maintaining a massive army at full strength to defeat China and to overawe India is bringing the Kremlin to the end of its economic rope even with the resources of nearly the entire world, and it doesn't help that the Kremlin is engaging in the suicidal communist economic system. China is still Maoist in this timeline, continuing politics of mass starvation and industrial collectivism. China seeks to dethrone the Soviet Union to become the hegemon of the communist world, funding Marxist-Leninist-Maoist movements globally and preparing for the inevitable war with the Soviet Union, at least in the eyes of the Chinese Communist Party politburo. India is also a socialist state, although is de facto a representative republic, although the socialists have a monopoly on power in New Delhi. Since becoming a nuclear power in 1974, India has since achieved their own states as a great power in competition with the USSR and China. The United States is the sole capitalist great power in the world, although has been suffering from economic malaise and decline since the 1970s.
The world is poorer, more totalitarian, technologically backward by a decade, and overall much crappier than in our own timeline, with communism racking up at least 200 million dead in this timeline and billions more trapped in eternal poverty while the politburos rule as the wealthy elites. Either the three communist superpowers destroy themselves (and the rest of the world) in a nuclear war over who is the true leader of communism or the inevitable dialect of history sweeps the capitalist United States to join the rest of the communist world in grim egalitarian poverty.
It is a testament to how important the people who make base-maps on here are.@Pax_Nihil just reminded me of the progress I've made: here's a Bruce map from 2004.
(Boy, was I lousy.)
Don't you mean the Chinese Community? : )A Brighter Sunrise | East Asian CommunityThe idea behind “A Brighter Sunrise” was to imagine an alternate post-war Japan with more social, diplomatic, and economic reforms. Not a perfect utopia, but a country that reconciled with its neighbors and avoided the "Lost Decades,” and is considered a more appealing place to live in.
The point of divergence (suggested by @LeX here) is the death of Mao Zedong during the Long March (1934-1935), leaving the Chinese Communist army with less effective leadership in the civil war. History mostly proceeded like in our timeline. Motivated by ultranationalism, the Imperial Japanese military conducted a genocidal expansionist campaign in Asia, committing mass atrocities including the Nanking Massacre, human experimentation by Unit 731, the Bataan Death March, and systemic sexual slavery, before their inevitable defeat by the United States in 1945 after the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (a slight difference in that Japan managed to keep the southern Kuril Islands before the Soviets could take them). The Soviet Union, having backed Mongolia and East Turkestan as buffer states starting in the 20s and 30s, invaded the Japanese puppet state of Manchuria, which later became the People's Republic of China or "North China." The rest of the Republic of China remained under the Nationalists (KMT). Korea was split in half between US and Soviet influence.
As World War II ended, the Cold War between the US and Soviet Union began. This is when events truly diverged. In OTL, the US occupation under Douglas MacArthur initially focused on punishing Japanese war criminals, although Emperor Hirohito was exempt because they believed that retaining the Emperor was necessary for stability. But as the USSR became the new adversary of the US and the Chinese Communists took over the mainland, the "Reverse Course" and "Red Purge" occurred, suppressing leftist movements and rehabilitating war criminals like Nobusuke Kishi (grandfather of Shinzo Abe), who went on to become Prime Minister and helped set up the 1955 System in which the conservative Liberal Democratic Party maintained an almost-unbroken chain of electoral victories. The geopolitics of the Cold War had discouraged reconciliation between Japan and its neighbors, as education about Japan's atrocities was mostly dismissed as communist propaganda until Hirohito passed away.
However, in this timeline, the smaller communist presence in Asia led to a less severe suppression of left-leaning politicians and other individuals in the late 1940s, opening the door for a multi-party system including the Japan Socialist Party. Hirohito also abdicated, with Prince Regent Nobuhito becoming head of state until the enthronement of Akihito, starting the Heisei era in 1952 instead of 1989 and reigning for 67 years. The prosecution of other war criminals by the Allied occupation continued.The flag of Japan was also modified in 1947 to distinguish the new government from the old regime, adding a horizontal blue stripe symbolizing 'the dawn of a new, peaceful country on the horizon.'The Korean War (1950-1952) reunited the Korean peninsula under Seoul while also stimulating Japan's industrial and economic recovery. In OTL, representatives from China and Korea were not invited to the Treaty of San Francisco in 1951 due to the exile of the ROC to Taiwan and the division of Korea. But ITTL, China was part of the Treaty, and a second treaty was made after the Korean War. The treaties addressed reparations and unambiguously settled any potential island disputes. Instead of the US "hub-and-spoke" system, a multi-lateral relationship between Japan and the republics of China and Korea was established in opposition to the USSR and the "Asian Iron Curtain" consisting of North China, Mongolia, and East Turkestan. All of these factors led to a greater reflection within Japanese society towards the crimes of Imperial Japan, which were emphasized in schools. Historical revisionism and denialism (such as the idea that Japan was “liberating Asia”) were made illegal. Some Japanese politicians visited places like Nanjing, Seoul, and Manila to solemnly atone for the past. The Rising Sun flag was banned, and war criminals were never secretly enshrined at Yasukuni Shrine in 1978.
With the LDP being less influential, many social reforms gradually occurred in Japan with pressure from activist groups and labor unions, including the reduction of long working hours and the gender pay gap, and an increasing acceptance of immigration in the face of labor shortages. Because women aren't forced to choose between a career and having children, the fertility rate is slightly higher, although still below replacement rate. Japan has also become a more attractive destination for immigrants, with greater economic opportunities and better working conditions. Immigrants currently make up 6 percent of Japan's population of 133 million instead of 2 percent in OTL. Ethnic relations aren't perfect as some nationalist hate groups still exist, but Japanese society is slowly getting used to the presence of foreigners. Same-sex marriage was also legalized in 2014.
During much of the Cold War, China and Korea were ruled by anti-communist authoritarian governments until democratic protests and reforms started in the 1970s and 1980s (ITTL, Chinese democracy is more like OTL India than Taiwan). The two Chinas eventually reunified peacefully in 1993 after the Soviet Union transformed into the Eurasian Confederation in 1990. The East Asian Community was established in 1972, facilitating more diplomatic and economic ties between the three nations. The flag of the EAC is based on the Hanzi/Kanji/Hanja characters for "East Asia" (東亞). Due to the massive disparities in population size, the EAC is not as integrated as the European Union, with members retaining their respective currencies. With some help from the US, Japan still had an "economic miracle" but it was less prominent due to the recovery of China and Korea happening sooner; this was balanced by Japan having a larger (non-captive) market to sell products to. The yen was kept artificially low in the first few decades after the war, leading to trade friction between the US and Japan in OTL, and the 1985 Plaza Accord which strengthened the yen relative to the dollar and made exports more expensive. ITTL, with exports being less dependent on the US and with better monetary policy by the Bank of Japan, the economic bubble of the late 1980s was prevented along with the subsequent "Lost Decades" of stagnation. Today, Japan has a gross domestic product of over $7 trillion.
More competition meant less complacency in the Japanese tech industry, which took advantage of digitalization and software development in the 1990s after computers became sophisticated enough to render Kanji script (while China and Korea were focused on manufacturing analog hardware). Shibuya, Tokyo became known as "Bit Valley," while other tech centers include Fukuoka and Tsukuba. Today, Japan is still competitive in electronics and is famous for smartphones instead of cassette players and fax machines. Japan even has its own crewed spaceflight program, having launched Fuji space capsules from Tanegashima since 1998. In the late 20th and early 21st centuries, the "Asian Wave" made media such as Chinese movies, Korean music, and Japanese animation and video games popular around the world. To compete with the juggernaut that is China, Japan is more focused on the international market ITTL, being less prone to "Galapagos syndrome." Transportation is also more interconnected: one can take a high-speed train line from Sapporo, Japan to Fukuoka, then through the Tunnel of Reconciliation to Busan, Korea, then up into China and all the way down to Taipei or Hong Kong. Some bitterness over Japanese imperial rule remains within the older populations of China, Korea, and other Asian countries, but like Germany in Europe, Japan has become a prosperous democracy that is politically respected by its neighbors.
It's a flowery idea, sure, but I don't really see Japan and Korea choosing to join a political or economic union where they will be outnumbered ten-to-one or more (twenty-to-one in Korea's case) by the Chinese unless it's by necessity mostly symbolic. I mean, you don't see the US, Canada and Mexico enter a political community together either, and that's despite them being generally fairly close both geographically and diplomatically (well, the US-Canada and Canada-Mexico relationships at least).
Ah, the good old "Matryoshka doll" theory of ethnic oppression. Turns out maybe the ethno-state as the orthodox conception of sovereignty isn't really a good thing to strive for...
Last edited:
Well I don't mean ethnostates are inherently a good goal, that's a whole other can of worms, but I do mean that when present, minorities typically demand rights and that historically the non-Uyghur groups have voiced concerns about Uyghur domination in the case of independence.
I was agreeing with you. But beyond my point about the ethnostate, I was mainly making light of the inherent irony of the persecuted subaltern of yesterday turning into the imperial oppressor of tomorrow. I mean you do tend to see that in a lot of places: from how most formerly oppressed "ethnic" whites (Italians, Irish, etc.) have by now assimilated into mainstream white America, or the establishment post-colonial tyrannies of the ethnic majority in parts of Asia and Africa after European retreat, or to the popular case of Israel, for some real-life examples.
My favorite example is easily Bosnia because of the sheer irony of it.
Prior to independence, Bosniaks pushed for autonomy for ethnic minorities, decentralization, and the rights of the republics while Serbs pushed for Yugoslav civic nationalism or even the "we are all Serbs of different religions" angle and centralization. Today, Serbs in Bosnia push for the autonomy of ethnic minorities, decentralization, and the rights of their entities over the national government while the Bosniaks push for Bosnian civic nationalism and "we are all Bosnians of different religions, there are no Serbs or Croats in Bosnia", and centralization.
It's gotten to the point that a Bosniak politician was given a quote from Milošević without being told who it was from and said that he wholeheartedly agreed with it and it perfectly summed up his views. Naturally, awkward silence ensued when he was told who he had just agreed with.
If this is too current politicsey I can always delete it.
It's a scenario that should be more explored in Ah works or more general fictions settings. I loved Attack on Titan on this, the whole "ancien oppressors of the evil empire turned ethnic minority hated by everybody" raise interresting questions and offer nuanced politic commentary, especially when you understand that said new oppressed will not be nicer if they regain power
Truly, I must see more of these GURPS series and find where they originally came from and what things have been done in the years since rvbomally and others started making these maps . *Googles Lenin GURPS, looks over the top result.* “King Boris I of Earth dominates a post-communist world and tries to rebuild in the wake of ecological near-collapse. Divergence Point. 1930's (maybe) the ...”
Very quick "What If" around the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the Prague Spring in 1968. Summary of events:
-NATO and Yugoslavia support the Hungarian rebels, albeit indirectly
-Hungarian rebels manage (somehow) to hold and almost completely push back the Soviet forces, possibly due to unwillingness to shoot civilians
-Khrushchev is blamed for creating weakness through his denunciations of Stalin, and is ousted in favour of Brezhnev and hardliners
-The southern edge of Slovakia is carved off to create a "Hungarian Autochtonous Zone" which is an autonomous region of Czechoslovakia.
-Brezhnev and the hardliners somehow make the economy worse, leading to a swing back towards reformism. Kosygin takes over.
-Kosygin attempts to follow what Khrushchev was doing, and mistakenly signals to politicians in the Warsaw Pact that reforms are acceptable.
-Dubchek begins his "Socialism with a Human Face" plan
-The Soviets order the invasion of Czechoslovakia, but this is rejected by the Warsaw Pact. It is informally dissolved as of 1968.
-Dictatorial control remains in East Germany, Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria
-East Germany enters negotiations and eventually unites with Germany in 1969
-Massive strikes in Poland lead to the resignation of Gomułka and the rise of Gierek. Gierek follows the model set out by Dubchek, of "Socialism with a Human Face"
-Dubchek's popularity craters as it becomes clear he is unwilling to implement substantial change. In 1971, the Velvet Revolution sees massive protests erupt across the country, and Dubchek resigns. After 3 months of negotiations, Czechoslovakia splits and the one-party state is abolished.
-Gierek opens elections in Poland, but wins handily. His economic programs seem to be working.
-Bulgaria follows the Polish model and democratises. Only Romania and Albania remain one-party dictatorships.
-With the Soviet sphere gone, a coup is attempted against Kosygin, but it fails. The chaos leads to several regions breaking away, including the Baltic states and the Caucasus.
-In 1971, Kosygin goes halfway with the Polish model, and in an attempt to soothe tensions between the republics, the USSR is "replaced" by the "USS" (Union of Sovereign States). The USS is much more decentralised, with the union acting more like an economic and customs union than a united country.
-In 1974, tensions between the Hungarian A.Z. and the Slovak government reach a fever pitch, and Hungarian rebels declare themselves independent.
-Fighting ends in 1978, but "Transdanubia" achieves semi-recognised independence.
-Union between Transdanubia and Hungary is broadly expected, but never materialises. The main issues of contension are politics (Transdanubians are very communist, pro-Stalinist), alignment (ie EEC vs USS), and autonomy (some Transdanubians want to keep autonomy, feeling different from regular Hungarians).
Last edited:
Massive butterflies for a USSR ending twenty years earlier.
Very quick "What If" around the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the Prague Spring in 1968. Summary of events:
-NATO and Yugoslavia support the Hungarian rebels, albeit indirectly
-Hungarian rebels manage (somehow) to hold and almost completely push back the Soviet forces, possibly due to unwillingness to shoot civilians
-Khrushchev is blamed for creating weakness through his denunciations of Stalin, and is ousted in favour of Brezhnev and hardliners
-The southern edge of Slovakia is carved off to create a "Hungarian Autochtonous Zone" which is an autonomous region of Czechoslovakia.
-Brezhnev and the hardliners somehow make the economy worse, leading to a swing back towards reformism. Kosygin takes over.
-Kosygin attempts to follow what Khrushchev was doing, and mistakenly signals to politicians in the Warsaw Pact that reforms are acceptable.
-Dubchek begins his "Socialism with a Human Face" plan
-The Soviets order the invasion of Czechoslovakia, but this is rejected by the Warsaw Pact. It is informally dissolved as of 1968.
-Dictatorial control remains in East Germany, Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria
-East Germany enters negotiations and eventually unites with Germany in 1969
-Massive strikes in Poland lead to the resignation of Gomułka and the rise of Gierek. Gierek follows the model set out by Dubchek, of "Socialism with a Human Face"
-Dubchek's popularity craters as it becomes clear he is unwilling to implement substantial change. In 1971, the Velvet Revolution sees massive protests erupt across the country, and Dubchek resigns. After 3 months of negotiations, Czechoslovakia splits and the one-party state is abolished.
-Gierek opens elections in Poland, but wins handily. His economic programs seem to be working.
-Bulgaria follows the Polish model and democratises. Only Romania and Albania remain one-party dictatorships.
-With the Soviet sphere gone, a coup is attempted against Kosygin, but it fails. The chaos leads to several regions breaking away, including the Baltic states and the Caucasus.
-In 1971, Kosygin goes halfway with the Polish model, and in an attempt to soothe tensions between the republics, the USSR is "replaced" by the "USS" (Union of Sovereign States). The USS is much more decentralised, with the union acting more like an economic and customs union than a united country.
-In 1974, tensions between the Hungarian A.Z. and the Slovak government reach a fever pitch, and Hungarian rebels declare themselves independent.
-Fighting ends in 1978, but "Transdanubia" achieves semi-recognised independence.
-Union between Transdanubia and Hungary is broadly expected, but never materialises. The main issues of contension are politics (Transdanubians are very communist, pro-Stalinist), alignment (ie EEC vs USS), and autonomy (some Transdanubians want to keep autonomy, feeling different from regular Hungarians).
"Tell Us Your Story Again"
What can only be described as a fusion of OTL and 1789: Who Tells Your Story?. I used their 1996 map for this and only resolved to base these borders off of OTL 2022, working solely from the national and subnational borders in the 1996 map.
The result is tastefully alternate, but strikingly modern.
What can only be described as a fusion of OTL and 1789: Who Tells Your Story?. I used their 1996 map for this and only resolved to base these borders off of OTL 2022, working solely from the national and subnational borders in the 1996 map.
The result is tastefully alternate, but strikingly modern.
Last edited:
- Status