Thank you.
Quite artfully done
I think that having actual people show up is a bit unrealistic but I do think that given enough time geographical factors have a way of producing convergent results (sometimes).
Map Thread XXI
- Thread starter fluttersky
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Oh Goddess..... 😱Oh, that's the Order of St Sigmund of the Cigar. They're next door.
This is my very first map! I've learned a lot the last few weeks I've spent making it. I've used paint.net for this. I've never done anything graphic before this, so I'm quite proud.
For making the map, I've looked at ethnic, linguistic, geographic and historical borders, and tried to mix it into the "Ultimate Europe". Take that with a grain of salt.
The basemap is one I found on Wikimedia. The legend/key is a slightly modified version of one I found from a post from Bob Hope, full credits to him.
I'm looking for criticism (not on my border decisions, but on the technical parts (color, how neat the borders are, potential improvements)).
Thanks in advance.
For making the map, I've looked at ethnic, linguistic, geographic and historical borders, and tried to mix it into the "Ultimate Europe". Take that with a grain of salt.
The basemap is one I found on Wikimedia. The legend/key is a slightly modified version of one I found from a post from Bob Hope, full credits to him.
I'm looking for criticism (not on my border decisions, but on the technical parts (color, how neat the borders are, potential improvements)).
Thanks in advance.
I would go for a different colour for Greece. Although I can tell the difference, the colours of Greece and France are far too close.
Thanks for the mention.
Its unusual to see a map without a borderline, it works but can fall down if the colours of the two countries clash, its a well known optical illusion.
like so;
Also, post direct or put a web address into the "insert Image" section of the reply box, gives a better image quality.
Its unusual to see a map without a borderline, it works but can fall down if the colours of the two countries clash, its a well known optical illusion.
like so;
Also, post direct or put a web address into the "insert Image" section of the reply box, gives a better image quality.
So I'm not sure how much further I'll want to go with this, especially since I'm going back to college in a week, but I thought I'd at least share this WIP here. Also, let me go ahead and give credit to @Sriyam Swastik for his map and scenario of a divided India and @oofo for his map of the divided Germany based on talks between Churchill and Stalin.
The basic idea is based around two things; the creation of the Franco-British Union during WW2, and the formation of a Danubian Federation under the restored Habsburgs based on another of Churchill's proposals. Churchill's OTL proposal didn't include Czechoslovakia, but ITTL they decided to join the Federation
The Franco-British Union, meanwhile, pursues policies dedicated to preserving its colonial empire, with the Dominion system being extended to much of Africa as well as many of France's colonial possessions. The main exception to this is India, where the country is fragmented into several new states due to Gandhi not being as influential (with figures such as Bose leading the move for Indian independence ITTL), the British government not being completely compliant with Indian independence, and various disagreements continuing between the Indian National Congress, the Princely States, and Muslim groups within the former Raj.
During the Cold War, the Franco-British Union and Danubian Federation would form the backbone of the Bloc Imperial, which found itself in conflict with both the Soviet Union and United States. The split with the latter would develop over the course of the first decade of the Cold War due to disagreements between the Americans and Franco-British over the latter's colonial possessions, and a break would officially occur in 1956 over the Suez Crisis, as the Franco-British felt much more confident in their ability to ignore foreign pressure from the US due to the continued strength of their empire. This decision would hurt the Franco-British Union for a time due to it resulting in reductions in trade with the US, with this also coinciding with instability in the empire from British and French factions who opposed the continuation of the union. Despite these trials, however, the Franco-British Union would recover and retain its position as a great power equal to the US and USSR, and over time the other remaining European colonial powers such as Portugal and the Netherlands would come under the sphere of the Bloc Imperial due to having shared interests in maintaining their overseas holdings.
The Soviet Union has also managed to survive, and while it was gradually pushed to let go of its puppets in Bulgaria and Romania under Beria and Poland and Prussia under Gorbachev, it has retained its core holdings in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and since Valentin Varennikov's successful coup in 1991 the state has maintained adherence to Marxist-Leninist orthodoxy. The Sino-Soviet split occurred as it did IOTL, with these differences only growing wider with China's adoption of further economic liberalization under Deng Xiaoping and later leaders.
Following the Anglo-American split, the United States found itself largely as the only defender of liberal democracy left in the face of both radical socialism and reactionary imperialism. America has focused largely on reviving the concept of the Monroe Doctrine, defending the sovereignty of American nations from Soviet and Imperial influence (even if that means American collusion in elections and military action against those who oppose American hegemony). The US has also tried expanding its influence across the Pacific, supporting post-colonial states in South Asia such as the Philippines, Indonesia, and Dravida Nadu as well as reaching out to states and groups in Africa who stand opposed to Franco-British rule on the continent. In Europe, Ireland has also warmed up to America considerably, as despite the widespread growth of Catholicism in Britain leading to fewer religious disputes, tensions remain high between Ireland and the Franco-British Union, especially over the issue of Northern Ireland. This has led to Ireland largely falling into America's sphere of influence, acting as America's foothold in Europe.
Most interestingly, as China has continued to pursue liberalization economically, there have been rumors of Washington and Beijing seeking closer cooperation due to their shared rivals in Moscow and London/Paris. This is by no means official or non-controversial, of course, with most Chinese and American citizens both largely opposing such an alliance, but there is no doubt that business between the two countries has increased greatly over the past few decades, and with it new diplomatic links have been established. Whether anything will come of this or not is yet to be seen, especially as the two regimes both still have major ideological differences, but such an alliance would greatly shift the dynamics of the ongoing Cold War.
This is obviously a very rough scenario and map (as well as probably not very plausible), but it's largely just an idea I was interested in exploring. Between the proposals for a Franco-British Union during WW2 and the Suez Crisis as well as Churchill's proposals for a South German Federation following the defeat of the Nazis, it seemed like an interesting potential basis for a third power bloc in the Cold War. That being said, I feel like I could have been much more creative with the rest of the world. Africa could definitely use some more variety, and some more alternate outcomes in the Middle East may have been interesting as well (i.e. Iran being split between the monarchy in the south and a communist state in the north), but I thought I may as well share this idea that I had been working on so it could be opened up for discussion.
Also, just to be clear, I don't support imperialism or Marxist-Leninism despite having both of them survive ITTL, I'm just trying to make a somewhat interesting scenario. I hope that goes without saying but I figured it's better to be safe than sorry.
I'm assuming, based on the small percentage of Jews ITTL's AH, that there somehow still was a Holocaust? Or perhaps Zionism still ended up being successful?
Bytor
Monthly Donor
Preliminary animated territorial evolution o fthe USA in my Balance of Power timeline
www.deviantart.com
Territorial evolution of the USA (preliminary) by CoryCA on DeviantArt
www.deviantart.com
The stab in the back myth ittl is aimed at against the Austrians. In ww2 the Germans invade (making Austria the otl french equivalent) and the Holocaust Is very brutal on Austrian lands, leading to a mass exodus of Jews to Israel after the war. The numbers are slowly rising up though as Danubian Jews return slowly from Israel for better economic prosperity.
Erin go bragh!
The two colors for Tuscany got some 'splainin' to do.
The key could use some tidying as well. Spain/Portugal are clearly afterthoughts, for example.
Surely not.
Voluntary inclusion of Czechoslovakia into new Danubian union under monarchy, especially Habsburg monarchy, is total ASB
Neverthless, I like it! Whole idea of Franco-british union is, I am afraid, quite ASB, but interesting idea, in my opinion quite underused.
I wanted to try showing US presidential elections on a worlda, potentially for use as an inset in one of my maps later on. I recall that years ago there was a compilation of worldas showing every presidential election but I've lost track of that over the years. If anyone knows where it is and has a link, I'd be very grateful.
The color choices here are a bit odd but then this is just a test.
A map of East Africa from the TL "1940 La France Continue" (France Fights On). After the Franco-British conquest of Italian Libya in October 1940, the Italian forces in East Africa began an offensive against the allied territories, once the allied forces of North Africa were freed, they began a general offensive against the last Italian colony in Africa.
By September 1941 the combined British, French, Belgian and Ethiopian forces defeat the last Italian troops and Ethiopia is liberated.
WIP of my current project, my own Subversion of TL-191 (Year is 1950, shortly before decolonization begins in earnest), basically it's me trying to get to an Entente Victory.
The problem I ran into is that if the North fights the South in 1914...the North is going to win in a slaughter. In OTL's Civil War, it had about 4 times the manpower pool, which becomes determinative the more protracted a war gets. In ATL 1914, that would be more like 5-6x or more, factoring in immigration in the Belle Epoque.
So you have to remove a North-South war from possibility. There's a couple ways to do that, here's what I came up with.
1860s: The South wins the Civil War by getting lucky on the battlefield in 1861-1862, which buoys its diplomatic efforts.
1870s: While discredited by the war, the Republican Party is still around, and abolitionist sentiment is here to stay. Anglophobia is added to the mix, for reasons I think are obvious.
1880s: The Republicans win, and prosecute a war of aggression (heh) against the South/Britain/France...which goes about as well as it did in Turtledove's "How Few Remain." Chunks of Maine, and Washington above the Columbia, are lost to Canada.
1890s-1910s: By this time, the crusading sentiment against the South has faded away, as has the Anglophobia of prior generations. Commercial and cultural ties with Britain have grown, and Americans are simply more interested in making money than they are in fighting. Also note that the coastal business interests (opposed to war) are politically much stronger than in OTL, given that the South isn't around to buoy the Populists. There's really no political will to go to war, even though it's winnable, it's not worth it.
- There still is a limited "cold war" of sorts against the South, focused on dominating Latin American countries and securing markets and raw material sources. The North is winning, for obvious reasons.
- The South is still a conservative aristocracy, linked politically to Mexico (another conservative aristocracy), with Cuba in its sphere. It underwent a limited industrialization, but is still largely a raw material source for greater powers.
The problem I ran into is that if the North fights the South in 1914...the North is going to win in a slaughter. In OTL's Civil War, it had about 4 times the manpower pool, which becomes determinative the more protracted a war gets. In ATL 1914, that would be more like 5-6x or more, factoring in immigration in the Belle Epoque.
So you have to remove a North-South war from possibility. There's a couple ways to do that, here's what I came up with.
1860s: The South wins the Civil War by getting lucky on the battlefield in 1861-1862, which buoys its diplomatic efforts.
1870s: While discredited by the war, the Republican Party is still around, and abolitionist sentiment is here to stay. Anglophobia is added to the mix, for reasons I think are obvious.
1880s: The Republicans win, and prosecute a war of aggression (heh) against the South/Britain/France...which goes about as well as it did in Turtledove's "How Few Remain." Chunks of Maine, and Washington above the Columbia, are lost to Canada.
1890s-1910s: By this time, the crusading sentiment against the South has faded away, as has the Anglophobia of prior generations. Commercial and cultural ties with Britain have grown, and Americans are simply more interested in making money than they are in fighting. Also note that the coastal business interests (opposed to war) are politically much stronger than in OTL, given that the South isn't around to buoy the Populists. There's really no political will to go to war, even though it's winnable, it's not worth it.
- There still is a limited "cold war" of sorts against the South, focused on dominating Latin American countries and securing markets and raw material sources. The North is winning, for obvious reasons.
- The South is still a conservative aristocracy, linked politically to Mexico (another conservative aristocracy), with Cuba in its sphere. It underwent a limited industrialization, but is still largely a raw material source for greater powers.
Attachments
The Eleven Nations Terrestrial, by B_Munro
This one I've had in the works for a while (finally getting some older stuff done), a science fiction setting based on the William Tenn/Philip Klass story "On Venus, Have We Got a Rabbi."
it's the 29th century, and humanity remains stubbornly non-united. Oh, there's a sort of unity - the Council of Eleven Nations terrestrial, which along with their puppets and client states and some minor neutrals form the Global Consensus on Earth, is a fairly close alliance, if only out of mutual self-interest, and forms the Solar Alliance with the wealthy former colony worlds of Titan and Ganymede. The outer solar system, Venus [1], Mercury, and various interstellar colonies not yet strong enough to be too much trouble to hold onto are divvied up in various ways, with Venus, for instance, being ruled by a Viceroy agreed upon by the Council and the Presidents of Ganymede and Titan. Mars, which has interstellar colonies of its own by now, and its Belter allies form a separate and somewhat hostile alliance, although willing enough to cooperate with the Solar Alliance against non-human interstellar menaces.
The best known on Earth among said menaces, for reasons that will soon be clear, are the vaguely clam-like Vegans - not actually from Vega, but humans first encountered them there, and the name has stuck. As it turned out, the Vegans were remarkable susceptible to the human memetic weapons known as "religion", and before humans figured out how to turn this to their advantage, large portions of the Vegan species converted to sort-of Judaism and sort-of Islam (the civil war is ongoing). In the peace treaty that ended the last human-Vegan conflict, the land of sometimes Egyptian/Sometimes Persian Palestine mark 2 formerly Israel Mark 2 formerly Arab Palestine formerly Holy Land formerly Israel etc. was ceded to the Vegans, both sides in the civil war considering it Holy Land. Although initially a co-dominion, the Omayadds and the Dayanites [2] soon started fighting over it, and the conflict is ongoing: since the Council won't allow Vegan military craft near Earth, it's fought with smuggled in weapons of only minor mass destruction at worst, but at this point if humans retake the place, it's going to require decades of decontamination.
It's an exciting time to be Jewish. It's been centuries since the Second Holocaust (Israel and South America), and there are more Jews alive than ever before: there aren't that many places on earth that are welcoming to Jews, but eight of the Eleven Nations Terrestrial are willing to at least tolerate their existence, and the great majority of Earth colonies former and present have at least a few Jews - even some former Argentine and Arab colonies. There are Jewish settlements on a number of non-human worlds, and some of their alien inhabitants don't distinguish them from other humans. (Not that they _like_ them: they just don't dislike them _more_ than other humans). There are even a few Jewish colonies (admittedly places absolutely nobody else wants and understandably rather hard to make a living on). As long as you don't make too much of a fuss, there are all sorts of possibilities for a Jew in the modern galaxy. (Sure, they aren't all good possibilities, but when are they ever?) Some Jews even think it's getting to be time to reclaim the land of Israel, possibly by buying it from the Vegans (a proposition that rather doubtfully assumes they'd want to sell), or perhaps soon the Council will get fed up with the Vegans holding onto a chunk of Earth and a neutral party will be needed to occupy the place, since otherwise the Persians and Egypt/Libya will start fighting over it again. There are plans for a Neozionist Congress, and that's got the Vegan's (metaphorical) hackles up, which in turn annoys the gentiles...
[1] Seven hundred years of terraforming and surface conditions are still horrible enough that everyone lives underground.
[2] The Dayanites think Moshe Dayan was an unrecognized Messiah and tend to be rather murderous to any Jews which disagree on that point. The Omayadds are a bit closer to actual Muslims but think any changes to Islam after 750 AD are heretical: by their definition pretty much all modern Muslims are heretics, and fifty years ago, while they were temporarily on top in the ongoing Vegan-on-Vegan violence, they ejected all human Muslims from Vegan Palestine. [3]
[3]The Omayyads aren't really satisfied, since they think Mecca and Medina need to be liberated, too, but there's no way the Dayanites are going to support them on that, and there is also no way on Allah's green earth that the other Council members will be able to argue Egypt-Libya into handing them over peacefully.
it's the 29th century, and humanity remains stubbornly non-united. Oh, there's a sort of unity - the Council of Eleven Nations terrestrial, which along with their puppets and client states and some minor neutrals form the Global Consensus on Earth, is a fairly close alliance, if only out of mutual self-interest, and forms the Solar Alliance with the wealthy former colony worlds of Titan and Ganymede. The outer solar system, Venus [1], Mercury, and various interstellar colonies not yet strong enough to be too much trouble to hold onto are divvied up in various ways, with Venus, for instance, being ruled by a Viceroy agreed upon by the Council and the Presidents of Ganymede and Titan. Mars, which has interstellar colonies of its own by now, and its Belter allies form a separate and somewhat hostile alliance, although willing enough to cooperate with the Solar Alliance against non-human interstellar menaces.
The best known on Earth among said menaces, for reasons that will soon be clear, are the vaguely clam-like Vegans - not actually from Vega, but humans first encountered them there, and the name has stuck. As it turned out, the Vegans were remarkable susceptible to the human memetic weapons known as "religion", and before humans figured out how to turn this to their advantage, large portions of the Vegan species converted to sort-of Judaism and sort-of Islam (the civil war is ongoing). In the peace treaty that ended the last human-Vegan conflict, the land of sometimes Egyptian/Sometimes Persian Palestine mark 2 formerly Israel Mark 2 formerly Arab Palestine formerly Holy Land formerly Israel etc. was ceded to the Vegans, both sides in the civil war considering it Holy Land. Although initially a co-dominion, the Omayadds and the Dayanites [2] soon started fighting over it, and the conflict is ongoing: since the Council won't allow Vegan military craft near Earth, it's fought with smuggled in weapons of only minor mass destruction at worst, but at this point if humans retake the place, it's going to require decades of decontamination.
It's an exciting time to be Jewish. It's been centuries since the Second Holocaust (Israel and South America), and there are more Jews alive than ever before: there aren't that many places on earth that are welcoming to Jews, but eight of the Eleven Nations Terrestrial are willing to at least tolerate their existence, and the great majority of Earth colonies former and present have at least a few Jews - even some former Argentine and Arab colonies. There are Jewish settlements on a number of non-human worlds, and some of their alien inhabitants don't distinguish them from other humans. (Not that they _like_ them: they just don't dislike them _more_ than other humans). There are even a few Jewish colonies (admittedly places absolutely nobody else wants and understandably rather hard to make a living on). As long as you don't make too much of a fuss, there are all sorts of possibilities for a Jew in the modern galaxy. (Sure, they aren't all good possibilities, but when are they ever?) Some Jews even think it's getting to be time to reclaim the land of Israel, possibly by buying it from the Vegans (a proposition that rather doubtfully assumes they'd want to sell), or perhaps soon the Council will get fed up with the Vegans holding onto a chunk of Earth and a neutral party will be needed to occupy the place, since otherwise the Persians and Egypt/Libya will start fighting over it again. There are plans for a Neozionist Congress, and that's got the Vegan's (metaphorical) hackles up, which in turn annoys the gentiles...
[1] Seven hundred years of terraforming and surface conditions are still horrible enough that everyone lives underground.
[2] The Dayanites think Moshe Dayan was an unrecognized Messiah and tend to be rather murderous to any Jews which disagree on that point. The Omayadds are a bit closer to actual Muslims but think any changes to Islam after 750 AD are heretical: by their definition pretty much all modern Muslims are heretics, and fifty years ago, while they were temporarily on top in the ongoing Vegan-on-Vegan violence, they ejected all human Muslims from Vegan Palestine. [3]
[3]The Omayyads aren't really satisfied, since they think Mecca and Medina need to be liberated, too, but there's no way the Dayanites are going to support them on that, and there is also no way on Allah's green earth that the other Council members will be able to argue Egypt-Libya into handing them over peacefully.
Because Portuguese/Spanish wanks are underrated, I thought to bring up a good one from "Portuguese America and Southern Africa the Redux" by @Viriato. This map is the world in 1734.
Source: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-and-southern-africa-the-redux.335722/page-10
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