Map Thread XXI

[Umbric Man]

Thank you! Hopefully more will be coming this weekend. I'm trying to get research done on some early scenarios to take to a full alt history once my current project is done.



I think that's my bad on the wording I chose. I meant that "French Concession" and "Spanish Concession" were both to Britain. I need to fix that.

I'm hoping to tease the scenario out a bit more and get it somewhat realistic. I have the "Revolutionary Period" somewhat mapped out into three distinct eras, the first from 1765 ending with the failed First American Revolutionary War, which this map shows. Then the second which is an interwar period with significant strife... the British win big with all the territory they get and don't trust the colonists completely... and the colonists completely disregard British laws and just begin settling in Indian territory, sparking all sorts of nasty Indian-Colonial attacks, British law enforcement actions which alienate the colonists, etc. etc. in a vicious cycle. The third period is the lead up to the Second American Revolutionary War, which is successful... then a possible "fourth era" where the US falls apart due to the Articles and separates into the USA and Commonwealth.

I'm toying with the idea of including Upper Canada in the Second Revolution and eventually having the US expand into the Pacific Northwest since the Commonwealth (and a few others) lock the US out of the Gulf of Mexico and southern California. Essentially the British don't see the point in another costly war when they can just trade with the colonies and refocus on Europe and India and China (which started to happen anyway).

Lots of butterflies and ideas... already mapped out a few US-CA wars involving the Mississippi River and tolls, West Virginia, and a few other things.

Some of the leaders like Hamilton manage to escape British justice and then come on back to America... and a lot of Patriots who are "exiled" come back and basically become what we'd call terrorists; burning ships, attacking British garrisons, raiding the treasuries, etc. etc.

Pretty interesting to have ideas like that in your head than a quick one-off scenario, so good job indeed.

I can see Upper Canada and OTL Loyalist-settled areas becoming part of the second USA, indeed all of English Canada. Why not? Most Loyalists in Upper Canada were Late Loyalists/Americans settling without any special ideology, political conditions got them revolting in the 1830s in reality, local British governors JUST AFTER the Revolution noted the Loyalists moving into the Maritimes were bitching on getting better local government more than the original New England Planters ever did (and they had SOME rumblings of sympathy for the Revolution way back...) and in TTL I don't see why they'd escape any harsh British rulings or decrees since there's no USA-Canada divide in the first place with the USA not existing at the time - doubly so if British law extends into the Great Lakes area, which Ontario is definitely part of geographically. That and what you said regarding British monentary profits without direct costs of control. It'd be easier to toss everything inland (Canada, eh) and even the PNW to America if it takes so long to get to the Pacific, much less trying to get inland without the Eastern Seaboard or Gulf of St. Lawrence to sail in from.

Since you seem to be going for a North-South divide, having the North/USA take everything at least north of 36'30/the 37th parallel including that Upper California Purchase line I noted works well enough. Southerners can politically shuffle just south of Missouri (which definitely had plenty of Southrons and slaves settle it alike, but then it all gets mixed up with lots of Mid-Atlantic settlers and Germans swamping them demographically outside the Ozark plateau part of the state) and then Kansas westward as in OTL. West Virginia was also settled by southerners, but it was so slave-empty and of course across the Appalachians of course it'd be a bit of a hotspot even outside the economic issues of being within Virginia itself.

Just to also throw stuff into the mix, you can still have a lot of sympathy for the colonists within Britain both commoner and MP alike to hamstring a lot of the really harsh punishments outside the initial martial law - that they DIDN'T become independent and fought for 'Rights of Englishmen' would resonate with a lot of people, especially when they are still nominally Englishmen.

 

[lionjedi1215]

A Semi-Serious Alternate Future

Nations of the former U.S.:
Alaskan People's Republic
Government Type: Oligarchical One-Party State
Kingdom of Hawaii
Government Type: Multi-Party Parliamentary Constitutional Monarchy
American Federal Republic (Lighter Blue)
Government Type: Presidential Multi-Party State
Revolutionary Union of America (Darker Blue)
Government Type: Eclipsist One-Party State
Great Lakes Federation
Government Type: Parliamentary Multi-Party State

Eclipsism: A mix of Ultra-Nationalism, Free Market Capitalism, Globalism, and McCarthyism. Created by Simeon Whitfield in 2025, it became one of the most popular ideologies among many conservative voters disillusioned by the Republican Party and eventually became the main political ideology of the Revolutionary Patriotic Party. It was originally called "Revolutionary Patriotism", while the party was still under its founder, Reuben Brown. Now it is the state government system under Whitfield's Revolutionary Union.

 

[BrobDingnag]

Eclipsism: A mix of Ultra-Nationalism, Free Market Capitalism, Globalism, and McCarthyism.

Ah, yes. This nation is the brother to The Hierarchical Commune of Anarcho-Totalitaria.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Crossposting the latest map from my TL, A Horn of Bronze.

Here is the promised map, this one covering the Upper Misebi [Mississippi] basin, the Great Lakes, and the northern Plains. It specifically focuses on the seven confederations of the Upper Misebian culture which because of their increasingly hierarchal, aquaculture-centered nature are becoming the first state societies in eastern North America. As before, other cultures are labeled on the map as are a few important trade routes (which are by no means the only trade routes). I added a few extra rivers and lakes to the map than previous basemaps just because it focuses on the Upper Midwest which is known for that.

 

[LoneStarCowboy]

Crossposting the latest map from my TL, A Horn of Bronze.

So parts of the Apache, the Navajo, and the Comanche migrated to the Kansas-Missouri-Nebraska area?

 

[Maharlikan_]

Amazing, but what's up with "Norse" in that sentence? I get that this is an Asian Viking sort of metaphor, but it's an odd way to use the term.

That's just my dumbass forgetting to change the text cos I just copied it some place else

 

[Arkenfolm]

So parts of the Apache, the Navajo, and the Comanche migrated to the Kansas-Missouri-Nebraska area?

It's similar to OTL where the ancestors of the former two (the Comanche were originally a Shoshoni tribe, they are far to the west TTL) lived somewhere on the central High Plains around 1300. Most of them later migrated south to Texas/New Mexico by the 16th century, beside one group who remained and became close allies with the Kiowa, hence their name "Kiowa Apache." These events still occurred in my TL, but the ATL group I'm terming "Plains Apache" are pastoralists who herd mountain goats (no horses yet).

The Plains Dena and Paduca are ATL ethnic groups. The former are akin to the Sarcee/Tsuu-tina had they migrated onto the Plains 500+ years earlier than OTL (and thus speak a language more akin to Athabaskan languages in Canada than to those in the Southwest), the latter are if those Plains Dena "pulled a Navajo" so to speak and adopted elements of Mississippian (TTL Misebian) culture, much as the Navajo did with Puebloan culture.

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

Countries in pale green are barbarian wastelands. Countries in white are tributaries.

Backstory: Qing dynasty survived and entered the 20th century in a strong position, and is now one of the three global superpowers alongside America and Russia. It's 1947 and there is need for reform. Seemingly every radio and television channel is abuzz with debates among the jinshi over what shape that should take and what the wider implications of any given policy are. Nothing enthralls the public like listening to plans and debates, especially from a cast of colorful characters with plenty of anecdotes to share.

Du Hengtian, the former governor of Sichuan famous for his tough stance on opium(*), has a proposal. Key points include:

​

+ Splitting Sichuan province into three to make it more manageable to govern.​

+ Completely rearranging the viceroyalties to better reflect the economic divisions within the country.​

+ Nationalizing the small tusi principalities in Sichuan and Yunnan, because the local rulers are making them safe havens for opium smugglers in return for a cut of the profits.​

+ More comprehensive anti-opium legislation, because the current legislation is easy to abuse, both from the side of the private citizen and the government official.​

+ Stronger surveillance and restrictions against Christians, with emphasis against American Christianity, because American missionaries are trying to use the broad anti-opium mood in the country to get their foot in the door and subvert Chinese morals.​

+ Getting Burma and Siam to agree to an anti-opium treaty, because opium farmers are increasingly migrating over to their countries to flee Chinese authorities.​

+ Getting Afghanistan's economy off of opium farming, because no anti-opium treaty network can be effective as long as Afghanistan is one of the world's top producers of opium.​

(*): highlights include mass executions of opium farmers, televised floggings of opium addicts, and bimonthly public lectures on the dangers of opium.

Historical notes:

​

1. IRL, Sichuan produced more opium in China than all other provinces combined. (map) The landscape is mountainous and difficult for the authorities to control, and up to half of the province was owned by autonomous tusi principalities, which were essentially little ethnic reservations that had their own laws and customs independent of the provincial government. Nationalizing the tusi was an on-again off-again project of successive dynasties for over a millennium.​

2. Sichuan was the largest Qing province and was split up multiple times by successive governments. The PRC once split it into five provinces. Sichuan = Four Plains, so four of the split-offs were named after cardinal directions - Chuanbei = Northern Plain, Chuannan = Southern Plain, etc.​

3. During the communists' anti-opium campaign, opium growers from Sichuan and Yunnan migrated en masse to the similarly-rugged hills of Burma and Laos, where they established the Golden Triangle. When the KMT was driven out of mainland China, a portion of them took over a large part of Burma and forced the locals to grow opium to finance their operations.​

4. IOTL, Afghanistan has been the world's opium capital since the 1990s.​

---

I plan on making this map one of about a dozen, each with a different name and agenda behind them.

 

[Kruglyasheo]

If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.
-Winston Churchill-​

I think I'm roughly the fiftieth person to come up with this idea, but still.

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

I think I'm roughly the fiftieth person to come up with this idea, but still.

 

[JohnnyFive]

Some ideas...

After the American Revolutionary War the British Empire emerged victorious. Substantial land concessions by France and Spain dramatically increased the size of British North America. One of the immediate changes in territory was the establishment of New Ireland from portions of territory claimed by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, as land grants for loyalists. The British Crown sided with New Hampshire (largely due to the more radical Patriot movements in New York) and granted them authority to issue land grants (into what would be Vermont) rather than New York.

As the 18th century came to an end, the Colonies, Canada, and the Territories of BNA were reorganized in an effort to better manage them, as the vast size of the territories made it difficult. The territories were divided with consideration for natural barriers, population, rivers, and local Indian Tribes.

The Proclamation Line attempted to slow westward expansion by the British Colonials, and for a time, it succeeded. However, the loss of the Revolutionary War pushed many former Patriots west, and conflicts with Indian tribes once allied to the British began to be a common occurrence. Unrest in Europe radically increase immigration to the more stable and faraway British territories.

The Reorganization Act of 1802 changed the boundaries of many territories and colonies into what is seen above. The Act established new governorships, Crown courts, and special tax districts to assist the British Empire in recouping its funds used to put down the First American Revolutionary War and to pay for increased military actions against Indian tribes resulting from westward expansion.

At the start of the Second American Revolutionary War, the most populous regions of North America sided with the New Patriots in their cause for independence. The British had greatly overestimated the vigor and strength the New Patriot movement possessed and did not realize how rapidly it had spread, north to Canada, and west by settlers. By 1818 many colonies (light blue) were in open revolt and British territories west of the Mississippi were openly sympathetic and providing assistance. Rebellions were tying down significant British resources- resources needed in Europe to fight the French Coalition.

By the end of the Second Revolution the United States was independent and claimed all the (blue colored) land. The Oregon Territory was eventually purchased by the United States after the failure of the Constitutional Convention and the dissolution into the northern USA and southern Commonwealth of America.

The dissolution of the US into two competing nations would lead to numerous conflicts in the first decades of each nation's existence and the birth of two new nations (the Republic of Texas and the California Republic) before a land lasting peace on the continent was established.

 

[dakkafex]

Paphlagonia - Argentina's future province?​

This map depicts how changes brought on by climate change may make the Antarctic Peninsula, also known as the Palmer Peninsula, habitable for large-scale civilian colonization.

Paphlagonia can be broadly split between the northern and southern lands, named Saint Martin Land and Taylor-Joy land respectively; divided at the Revelle inlet and Wordie Bay. Saint Martin Land resembles the northern stretches of current-day Norway in climate, the snow which previously covered Antarctica's rocky cliffs are here relegated to the inland mountain chain. This is the warmest and most populated part of Paphlagonia. Taylor-Joy land is much more frigid; more comparable to modern-day northern Canada. A few large ice sheets are still precariously present here. Only the mineral resources of the interior make permanent habitation economically viable.

The export of raw resources, such as uranium, Iron and Lithium, makes up the bulk of the province's economy. A few train lines dot the interior of the province; passenger rail in the north and freight rail in the south.

God this is so cool, I love me some Antarctic settlement and the visual presentation is lovely. What's the total population as of 2078?

 

[Aichi72]

A quick map I made of a probably completely ASB concept that I came up with last night.
1. Louis XVII escapes imprisonment and is smuggled into exile in Britiain.
4. Louis XVII has a son in 1810, also named Louis, but dies a few years afterwards in a riding accident.
2. Napoleon II is born a girl, named Marie Letizia.
3. Napoleon manages to defeat Russia and keep Spain, as well as most of his other conquests. He died of natural causes in 1821, leaving the 10 year old Marie Letizia as Empress Letizia of the French. A Regency Council rules in her name until she come of age.
4. Letizia is conservative and devout, some of her more prominent early policies include restoring many of the privileges of the pre-revolutionary nobility (though not too much, she doesn't want them getting too powerful), the establishment of the Chamber of Peers as the upper house of the French Parliament, the return of many confiscated church lands, and the independence of the Papal States in the Leonine City, Benevento, and Pontecorvo.
5. On a visit to the Papacy, Letizia meets and falls in love with TTL Louis XVIII of France. With their marriage, the Bourbons return to the French throne.
6. Louis and Letizia's son, Charles X marries a Hasburg princess, who inherits the Habsburg realms after the assassination of her oldest brother by anarchist radicals, and the death of her other brother and nephew on the battlefield against the Ottomans.
7. Charles X's son, Louis XIX, formally unifies his various realms and is crowned Emperor of the Romans by the Pope in Rome, the first since Francis II's dissolution of the HRE. He also moves the capital to Rome, and starts promoting Roman and Catholic nationalism across his Empire.
8. Louis XIX is succeeded by his son Karl VIII EDIT: Charles XI, who is succeeded by his son Otto V, the current emperor.

 

[Višeslav]

View attachment 811678
A quick map I made of a probably completely ASB concept that I came up with last night.
1. Louis XVII escapes imprisonment and is smuggled into exile in Britiain.
4. Louis XVII has a son in 1810, also named Louis, but dies a few years afterwards in a riding accident.
2. Napoleon II is born a girl, named Marie Letizia.
3. Napoleon manages to defeat Russia and keep Spain, as well as most of his other conquests. He died of natural causes in 1821, leaving the 10 year old Marie Letizia as Empress Letizia of the French. A Regency Council rules in her name until she come of age.
4. Letizia is conservative and devout, some of her more prominent early policies include restoring many of the privileges of the pre-revolutionary nobility (though not too much, she doesn't want them getting too powerful), the establishment of the Chamber of Peers as the upper house of the French Parliament, the return of many confiscated church lands, and the independence of the Papal States in the Leonine City, Benevento, and Pontecorvo.
5. On a visit to the Papacy, Letizia meets and falls in love with TTL Louis XVIII of France. With their marriage, the Bourbons return to the French throne.
6. Louis and Letizia's son, Charles X marries a Hasburg princess, who inherits the Habsburg realms after the assassination of her oldest brother by anarchist radicals, and the death of her other brother and nephew on the battlefield against the Ottomans.
7. Charles X's son, Louis XIX, formally unifies his various realms and is crowned Emperor of the Romans by the Pope in Rome, the first since Francis II's dissolution of the HRE. He also moves the capital to Rome, and starts promoting Roman and Catholic nationalism across his Empire.
8. Louis XIX is succeeded by his son Karl VIII, who is succeeded by his son Otto V, the current emperor.

This is a fucking awesome concept. Very implausible ofc but who cares, it’s epic.

 

[Aichi72]

This is a fucking awesome concept. Very implausible ofc but who cares, it’s epic.

Thank you, it is indeed incredibly implausible but still fun to think of and draw. I actually wanted to try and include the Emperor's full title but I couldn't figure put exactly what it would be and it wouldn't fit on the page anyway.

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

View attachment 811678
A quick map I made of a probably completely ASB concept that I came up with last night.
1. Louis XVII escapes imprisonment and is smuggled into exile in Britiain.
4. Louis XVII has a son in 1810, also named Louis, but dies a few years afterwards in a riding accident.
2. Napoleon II is born a girl, named Marie Letizia.
3. Napoleon manages to defeat Russia and keep Spain, as well as most of his other conquests. He died of natural causes in 1821, leaving the 10 year old Marie Letizia as Empress Letizia of the French. A Regency Council rules in her name until she come of age.
4. Letizia is conservative and devout, some of her more prominent early policies include restoring many of the privileges of the pre-revolutionary nobility (though not too much, she doesn't want them getting too powerful), the establishment of the Chamber of Peers as the upper house of the French Parliament, the return of many confiscated church lands, and the independence of the Papal States in the Leonine City, Benevento, and Pontecorvo.
5. On a visit to the Papacy, Letizia meets and falls in love with TTL Louis XVIII of France. With their marriage, the Bourbons return to the French throne.
6. Louis and Letizia's son, Charles X marries a Hasburg princess, who inherits the Habsburg realms after the assassination of her oldest brother by anarchist radicals, and the death of her other brother and nephew on the battlefield against the Ottomans.
7. Charles X's son, Louis XIX, formally unifies his various realms and is crowned Emperor of the Romans by the Pope in Rome, the first since Francis II's dissolution of the HRE. He also moves the capital to Rome, and starts promoting Roman and Catholic nationalism across his Empire.
8. Louis XIX is succeeded by his son Karl VIII EDIT: Charles XI, who is succeeded by his son Otto V, the current emperor.

Does the empire have any overseas territories, or does this map show all of its territories? Is it just called the Roman Empire?

 

[Aichi72]

Does the empire have any overseas territories, or does this map show all of its territories? Is it just called the Roman Empire?

It is called the Holy Roman Empire. It does have overseas territories. The map only shows the continental territories of the Bourbon-Habsburg-Bonapartes and their allies. The HRE itself I imagine has France and Germany's OTL non-African overseas territories. I'm less sure about Africa but they for sure have egypt and the Holy Land.

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

It is called the Holy Roman Empire. It does have overseas territories. The map only shows the continental territories of the Bourbon-Habsburg-Bonapartes and their allies. The HRE itself I imagine has France and Germany's OTL non-African overseas territories. I'm less sure about Africa but they for sure have egypt and the Holy Land.

Is the empire an absolute monarchy or are there still some elements of democracy? Who rules the other highlighted states and what's their relation to the empire?

 

[Aichi72]

Is the empire an absolute monarchy or are there still some elements of democracy? Who rules the other highlighted states and what's their relation to the empire?

Making this lore up as I go, but I believe the Empire would be some kind of semi-authoritarian monarchy, where the Emperor and the Peers of the Realm hold significant powers, but the Senate (the elected lower house) is not powerless, possessing the right to introduce and debate legislation as well, although the members of the Senate are unpaid, so membership is in practice limited to relatively wealthy commoner, usually coming from among the traditional rural gentry or the nouveau riche urban buisnessmen. The Helvetic Confederation is the same as the OTL client state of Napoleon, Denmark-Norway has its OTL King, and Poland and Lithuania are in personal union with Saxony, which is a subnational monarchy under the Empire like the other former members of the Confederation of the Rhine. In the Two Sicilies (soon to be Three Sicilies) and Spain, Napoleon still deposed their Bourbon monarchs and installed his brothers, but the Bourbons were restored during the reign of Louis XVIII and Marie Letizia as part of their conservative reforms, but the Spanish Bonapartes and the Murats in Naples retain some powers as basically hereditary prime ministers (think Rana dynasty in Nepal or the Stewards of Gondor from LotR, but they share power with the king).

 

[TheBeanieBaron]

View attachment 811678
A quick map I made of a probably completely ASB concept that I came up with last night.
1. Louis XVII escapes imprisonment and is smuggled into exile in Britiain.
4. Louis XVII has a son in 1810, also named Louis, but dies a few years afterwards in a riding accident.
2. Napoleon II is born a girl, named Marie Letizia.
3. Napoleon manages to defeat Russia and keep Spain, as well as most of his other conquests. He died of natural causes in 1821, leaving the 10 year old Marie Letizia as Empress Letizia of the French. A Regency Council rules in her name until she come of age.
4. Letizia is conservative and devout, some of her more prominent early policies include restoring many of the privileges of the pre-revolutionary nobility (though not too much, she doesn't want them getting too powerful), the establishment of the Chamber of Peers as the upper house of the French Parliament, the return of many confiscated church lands, and the independence of the Papal States in the Leonine City, Benevento, and Pontecorvo.
5. On a visit to the Papacy, Letizia meets and falls in love with TTL Louis XVIII of France. With their marriage, the Bourbons return to the French throne.
6. Louis and Letizia's son, Charles X marries a Hasburg princess, who inherits the Habsburg realms after the assassination of her oldest brother by anarchist radicals, and the death of her other brother and nephew on the battlefield against the Ottomans.
7. Charles X's son, Louis XIX, formally unifies his various realms and is crowned Emperor of the Romans by the Pope in Rome, the first since Francis II's dissolution of the HRE. He also moves the capital to Rome, and starts promoting Roman and Catholic nationalism across his Empire.
8. Louis XIX is succeeded by his son Karl VIII EDIT: Charles XI, who is succeeded by his son Otto V, the current emperor.

I really love this concept! It would cool to see a graphic timeline based on this.