Map Thread XXI

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I tend to disagree, having tried Inkscape, and GIMP, and Paint.net myself. They're overwhelming and finnicky; if you just want to throw together a map to get an idea on paper, you shouldn't need a lesson in graphic design to do it. Suggesting otherwise is bordering on gatekeeping and we shouldn't do that.
Personally, and for having tried them, Inkscape and "vector" graphic tools do strike me as overwhelming and finicky.
GIMP, however, is basically a more developped Paint, and well. It's not about the program, in the end, it's the amount of care you put into your map.
 
Throwing a map together to get ideas on paper and making a final product are two completely different things.
Well that's just flat out not true. They are often and frequently exactly the same thing, because, again, not everyone wants to be a graphic designer. Some people just have random AH scenarios and want to put them on a map. They should be allowed to share those ideas without someone coming along and saying, "suffer through hours of Inkscape".
It's not about the program, in the end, it's the amount of care you put into your map.
Some people don't feel the need to put care into a map. Some people put care into a map and it still isn't as good as some others. The level of skill doesn't show the amount of care; if anything it shows the amount of time someone has in their life to dedicate to whatever they're working on. They should still be allowed to share.
 
I'm sorry but this map screams MS paint. Have you considered using Inkscape, for instance?
I tend to disagree, having tried Inkscape, and GIMP, and Paint.net myself. They're overwhelming and finnicky; if you just want to throw together a map to get an idea on paper, you shouldn't need a lesson in graphic design to do it. Suggesting otherwise is bordering on gatekeeping and we shouldn't do that.
Personally, and for having tried them, Inkscape and "vector" graphic tools do strike me as overwhelming and finicky.
GIMP, however, is basically a more developped Paint, and well. It's not about the program, in the end, it's the amount of care you put into your map.
I'm going to add my own take on this discussion: MS Paint, Paint.NET, GIMP and Inkscape are all perfectly good tools to use. However, suggesting Inkscape to a beginner in mapping is not a very useful advice. The problem with this map has way less to do with the program they choose to use and more with the techniques and basemap.

Basically, in MS Paint, the easiest way to make a map, if you don't want to go pixel by pixel, is to choose an appropiate basemap. Thankfully, alternatehistory.com has a lot of great basemaps to choose from, such as Worlda, Q-BAM, or 2K-BAM. If you want to use MS Paint, my suggestion would be to pick one of these and start from there. They help avoid the square blobs of white near the borders.

Another alternative is to make your own "basemap", but this requires layers to do it in any remotely efficient way. That's where I suggest going to Paint.NET, especially if you already handle MS Paint moderately well. Paint.NET has most of MS Paint's functionalities but adds a few key tools that are crucial if you wanna take the next step in mapping. In particular, working with layers allows you to take any map you want, and be able to draw over it to get rid of any imperfections (the famous jpeg effect), and to have a blank, usable base. It also has the magic wand which is very useful, as it allows you to select continuous pixels of the same color regardless of the shape.

The next step would be GIMP. GIMP is in many ways similar to Paint.NET, it has layers and the magic wand, of course, but it also has a few more options when working with layers. It allows to create layer groups and has a great text editing option, as well as warping tools when you want to do quick reprojecting.

Inkscape is a completely different program. It works not with pixels but with objects that are not defined in a neat grid but rather smoothly (matematically, hence the name "vector image"). Inkscape is NOT a replacement for MS Paint. They are way too far removed from each other. When doing maps on Inkscape you have to put a lot more effort to make them look good than when working with pixel-based images.

MY SUGGESTIONS: Start with MS Paint. Familiarize yourself with Worldas or Q-BAMs and the various tools of that program. Then, switch to Paint.NET. You can start with Paint.NET, it's not a big deal, but it may get a bit complicated at first. However, I wouldn't say it's overwhelming at all. In fact, many times it's rather too simple for my liking. Then, try GIMP. That one is a bit more unintuitive, but again, easy to get the hand of. Though I would highly recommend getting used to Paint.NET before making the jump. If you wanna try Inkscape, go ahead, but if you have trouble with Paint.NET, Inkscape is going to be overwhelming. Do look up tutorials though, there are a few good tutorials online. However, as a beginner, I don't think it's a great idea unless you wanna get somewhat frustrated and take a long time to finish a map.
 
Some people don't feel the need to put care into a map.
Then I'm not interested in checking out their maps.
Some people put care into a map and it still isn't as good as some others.
Um... ask for help ?
The level of skill doesn't show the amount of care; if anything it shows the amount of time someone has in their life to dedicate to whatever they're working on. They should still be allowed to share.
I'm not exactly skillful at mapping either...
But, really. If I wanted to make a map like this in only a few clicks, sure the islands would not be colored, but you wouldn't have the ugly-ass JPG artefacts.
Ain't complicated to get a clean basemap.
 
This whole little mapping software argument happens all the time, and here is what I say to it.

I use PaintZ, which needs no download (paintz.net), to make my maps.
Simple to use.
 
(A revised version of an old map of mine from over two years ago, includes era-accurate coastlines)
Alexander the Greater: What if Alexander didn't die young?
POD: 323 BCE/1 EE (Étos ton Ellínon)
Current Year: 1 CE/324 EE

View attachment 792570

Edit: Added more uninhabited regions​
What's going on in China?
This is a 21st century alt Cold War scenario, with a POD in the 1980s or 1990s.

These are the "big three" of the Traditional Order: China, India, and Russia, ruled by Falun Dafa, Hindutva, and Golden Age respectively. They are theocratic, esoteric, monarchist, traditionalist, anti-colonial, anti-capitalist, anti-atheist, and anti-liberal countries. They have inferior conventional technology to the United Allies, but are more advanced in psychic powers, astral projection, and various other esoteric stuff.

Their opponents are the United Allies, which are like a three way hybrid between OTL United Nations, Nato, and the European Union, but all around the world. All other countries are either part of the United Allies, or tiny neutrals desperately trying to survive and maintain their independence.

The main ideological battle in this 21st century Cold War is not between communism vs capitalism, but between traditionalism and esoterics vs progressivism and technocracy.

There is a kind of asymmetrical space race in the world today. The United Allies are colonizing the other planets of the Solar System using spacecrafts and technology. While the Traditional Order is colonizing planets in other dimensions using astral projection and magical portals. So these two parallel human civilizations build on diametrically opposed principles are colonizing the galaxy using entirely different methods. Eventually many thousands of years will pass before the colonies founded by the United Allies and the Traditional Order meet again, and they will form the two rival human civilizations of the Milky Way galaxy, having a kind of Cold War in space paralleling the situation in the 21st century. In the far future, the United Allies derived civilizations developed their technology to be like the United Federation of Planets or even the Borg from Star Trek. Whereas the Traditional Order derived civilizations developed their psychic abilities to be like Avatar the Last Airbender or Dragon Ball, or even the Imperium of Mankind from Warhammer 40k.
Very interesting idea. I love worlds where ordinary technology interacts with magical techniques. In this scenario, would the esoteric abilities have developed recently during the PoD, or are they a full part of human history?
 
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I'm going to add my own take on this discussion: MS Paint, Paint.NET, GIMP and Inkscape are all perfectly good tools to use. However, suggesting Inkscape to a beginner in mapping is not a very useful advice. The problem with this map has way less to do with the program they choose to use and more with the techniques and basemap.

Basically, in MS Paint, the easiest way to make a map, if you don't want to go pixel by pixel, is to choose an appropiate basemap. Thankfully, alternatehistory.com has a lot of great basemaps to choose from, such as Worlda, Q-BAM, or 2K-BAM. If you want to use MS Paint, my suggestion would be to pick one of these and start from there. They help avoid the square blobs of white near the borders.

Another alternative is to make your own "basemap", but this requires layers to do it in any remotely efficient way. That's where I suggest going to Paint.NET, especially if you already handle MS Paint moderately well. Paint.NET has most of MS Paint's functionalities but adds a few key tools that are crucial if you wanna take the next step in mapping. In particular, working with layers allows you to take any map you want, and be able to draw over it to get rid of any imperfections (the famous jpeg effect), and to have a blank, usable base. It also has the magic wand which is very useful, as it allows you to select continuous pixels of the same color regardless of the shape.

The next step would be GIMP. GIMP is in many ways similar to Paint.NET, it has layers and the magic wand, of course, but it also has a few more options when working with layers. It allows to create layer groups and has a great text editing option, as well as warping tools when you want to do quick reprojecting.

Inkscape is a completely different program. It works not with pixels but with objects that are not defined in a neat grid but rather smoothly (matematically, hence the name "vector image"). Inkscape is NOT a replacement for MS Paint. They are way too far removed from each other. When doing maps on Inkscape you have to put a lot more effort to make them look good than when working with pixel-based images.

MY SUGGESTIONS: Start with MS Paint. Familiarize yourself with Worldas or Q-BAMs and the various tools of that program. Then, switch to Paint.NET. You can start with Paint.NET, it's not a big deal, but it may get a bit complicated at first. However, I wouldn't say it's overwhelming at all. In fact, many times it's rather too simple for my liking. Then, try GIMP. That one is a bit more unintuitive, but again, easy to get the hand of. Though I would highly recommend getting used to Paint.NET before making the jump. If you wanna try Inkscape, go ahead, but if you have trouble with Paint.NET, Inkscape is going to be overwhelming. Do look up tutorials though, there are a few good tutorials online. However, as a beginner, I don't think it's a great idea unless you wanna get somewhat frustrated and take a long time to finish a map.
So much this. Exactly what I wanted to say about this argument, better than I would have been able to say it.
 
If it never unified, is there an "after" to the Warring States period? ;)
On similar lines, if post-Qing mainland China had balkanized and stayed that way, would China have been considered naturally divided by both Chinese peoples and foreigners? IOTL, the meme of China inevitably uniting and a unified Chinese national identity are so ingrained that unity is assumed to be inevitable.
 
On similar lines, if post-Qing mainland China had balkanized and stayed that way, would China have been considered naturally divided by both Chinese peoples and foreigners? IOTL, the meme of China inevitably uniting and a unified Chinese national identity are so ingrained that unity is assumed to be inevitable.
Things are always changing. Before 300 BC, Greece was a collection of city states, and then Alexander the Madlad united them. Same thing in China with Qin Shi Huang, or Sumeria with various kingdoms and empires, so on and so forth. There probably will be the concept of a united Chinese (Han) identity even if they aren't united politically, much like Greeks had a united Greek identity even before Alexander.
 
Thats some Mega-Uganda :D
Ok, any other idea... maybe different Chaco war outcome? (nut sure how (un)likely is it...)
Also, if there are some problems in Yugoslavia, I think that Hungary and Bulgaria may try to intervene (on the other hand, there is then danger that Romania, Greece and /or Czechoslovakia also move, maybe even France...)
The reason why Hungary and Bulgaria didn't get anything is because not only the Little Entente but also France prevented them from doing any border shifting. Slovenia and Croatia are only allowed because it isn't shifting any already existing borders but creating 2 new ethnic states.





Anyway. Here we have 1976, 4 years after the death of Mussolini, 2 years after the death of Franco and one year since the fall of the Fascist dictatorships in Italy and Spain. As well as 2 years since the fall of the Estado Novo in Portugal. Instead replacing them with a left leaning Social Republic in Italy, fueled by the anti establishment mindset of the young majority of the so called "Italian Spring". And less radically the return of the Spanish monarchy and just a Portuguese Republic. The fascist regimes in Slovenia and Croatia meanwhile, the last two standing had to decide to unite to stand stronger together or fall divided? So they did. While still feeling unsave, they had to resort to promise Hungary some borderlands for economic and political protection.
Meanwhile with the fall of Austro-Fascism, the Germans of Austria decided rally up, demanding an integration of Austria's states into the federal system of Germany. Something which France and Britain only begrudgingly accepted. Albania meanwhile finally free, decided for economic reasons and to unite with the Albanians of Yugoslavia to join said state, which since the Sloveno-Croatian crisis has formed to become a much more free and equal union of the crown of Serbia and the reestablished crown of Montenegro. Thus the Crown of Albania, now with a Kosovo and Macedonian border lands bigger became the third part of the so called United Kingdom of Illyria.

Here we see even further decolonization, before the big and last chapter happens in Africa. I mean the Belgian Congo as well as the Horn of Africa got free. But that's only the begining.

Outside of that a Sino-Soviet victory over the Japanese in the early 60s pushed Japan out of the mainland, loosing Karafuto Prefecture and the northern most of the Chishima islands, but still holding the islands of Saishū, or Chejudo in Korean as well as the island of Taiwan.
1669862262188.png



And here we see 2022. In Europe, nothing really has changed. Sure some more land reclamations done by the Netherlands and the Danish. With loose custom and economic agreements between the individual states, Europe has found it's equilibrium. Sure relations with the Soviets are dificult as always. But the two sides don't have the will power to really change the borders of Europe through endless bloodshed. Still a reminder from the World War
In the East meanwhile we see the unification New Guinea, as well as the hand over of former Saishū, now Chejudo from the more and more self isolating Japan to the shining new star that is Korea. The Indian giant, after integrating Bhutan, Sikkim and French India is now almost satisfied, still waiting for a chance to take the Portuguese holdings. The extendend parts of Hong Kong and the city of Kouang-Tchéou-Wan were returned to China after their 99-year lease.

Africa finally saw it's decolonization.
But still Portugal and Spain are on the continent, never planning to leave their colonies, instaed made them integral parts of their countries.
Italy meanwhile retained the by now majority Italian part of it's Libyan coast. Just like France did with it's Algerian lands. But instead of Italy just retaining the coast. The still hold to their South American and Pacific lands. Meanwhile in Africa, Gabon decided to remain parts of France, while Afars and the Issas on the horn of Africa still have to live under the French boot.
The white minority rule of South Africa, Rhodesia (Now Zimbabwe) and Kenya finally ended. Sure, the whites still have a lot of influence and South Africa still holds to it's mandate. But the situation finally moves to more equality. More north we see the Mali federation and the unified State of the Sahara, made up of former French Algeria and Italian Lybia (Still mad at the later two mind I add)
1669864584428.png
 
The reason why Hungary and Bulgaria didn't get anything is because not only the Little Entente but also France prevented them from doing any border shifting. Slovenia and Croatia are only allowed because it isn't shifting any already existing borders but creating 2 new ethnic states.





Anyway. Here we have 1976, 4 years after the death of Mussolini, 2 years after the death of Franco and one year since the fall of the Fascist dictatorships in Italy and Spain. As well as 2 years since the fall of the Estado Novo in Portugal. Instead replacing them with a left leaning Social Republic in Italy, fueled by the anti establishment mindset of the young majority of the so called "Italian Spring". And less radically the return of the Spanish monarchy and just a Portuguese Republic. The fascist regimes in Slovenia and Croatia meanwhile, the last two standing had to decide to unite to stand stronger together or fall divided? So they did. While still feeling unsave, they had to resort to promise Hungary some borderlands for economic and political protection.
Meanwhile with the fall of Austro-Fascism, the Germans of Austria decided rally up, demanding an integration of Austria's states into the federal system of Germany. Something which France and Britain only begrudgingly accepted. Albania meanwhile finally free, decided for economic reasons and to unite with the Albanians of Yugoslavia to join said state, which since the Sloveno-Croatian crisis has formed to become a much more free and equal union of the crown of Serbia and the reestablished crown of Montenegro. Thus the Crown of Albania, now with a Kosovo and Macedonian border lands bigger became the third part of the so called United Kingdom of Illyria.

Here we see even further decolonization, before the big and last chapter happens in Africa. I mean the Belgian Congo as well as the Horn of Africa got free. But that's only the begining.

Outside of that a Sino-Soviet victory over the Japanese in the early 60s pushed Japan out of the mainland, loosing Karafuto Prefecture and the northern most of the Chishima islands, but still holding the islands of Saishū, or Chejudo in Korean as well as the island of Taiwan.
View attachment 792852


And here we see 2022. In Europe, nothing really has changed. Sure some more land reclamations done by the Netherlands and the Danish. With loose custom and economic agreements between the individual states, Europe has found it's equilibrium. Sure relations with the Soviets are dificult as always. But the two sides don't have the will power to really change the borders of Europe through endless bloodshed. Still a reminder from the World War
In the East meanwhile we see the unification New Guinea, as well as the hand over of former Saishū, now Chejudo from the more and more self isolating Japan to the shining new star that is Korea. The Indian giant, after integrating Bhutan, Sikkim and French India is now almost satisfied, still waiting for a chance to take the Portuguese holdings. The extendend parts of Hong Kong and the city of Kouang-Tchéou-Wan were returned to China after their 99-year lease.

Africa finally saw it's decolonization.
But still Portugal and Spain are on the continent, never planning to leave their colonies, instaed made them integral parts of their countries.
Italy meanwhile retained the by now majority Italian part of it's Libyan coast. Just like France did with it's Algerian lands. But instead of Italy just retaining the coast. The still hold to their South American and Pacific lands. Meanwhile in Africa, Gabon decided to remain parts of France, while Afars and the Issas on the horn of Africa still have to live under the French boot.
The white minority rule of South Africa, Rhodesia (Now Zimbabwe) and Kenya finally ended. Sure, the whites still have a lot of influence and South Africa still holds to it's mandate. But the situation finally moves to more equality. More north we see the Mali federation and the unified State of the Sahara, made up of former French Algeria and Italian Lybia (Still mad at the later two mind I add)
View attachment 792864
Nice ideas. My one nitpick is that the Sudan/south Sudan border would probably be different. the OTL border was decided based on the frontlines when the war ended, as well as demarcation of effective control via gps positions. If the British were behind it...well...it'd probably be some weird colonial reasoning that decides the border.
 
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