Map Thread XX
- Thread starter Balkanized U.S.A
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Speaking about taking numbers seriously, is the population for the Frankish Empire just for the European metropole?
Yes, that's correct, I only listed the mainland numbers for all the powers.
Courtesy of u/Alagremm from Reddit, the Iroquois Principality of Niagara: a Native American microstate located on OTL Grand Island. The artist almost solely specialises in microstates of all kinds; this map is only one of dozens that they have created.
“Your race's descent has only worsened since your last visit, tourist. You have no right to enter this land, just as your disgraced ancestors never had. But unlike you, we have preserved our ancestors’ ways and kept true to our nature – the deceit of the Occidental haplogroup is undone. You on the other hand have fallen to the same poisons your predecessors meant to destroy us with. The influence of the firewater race is waning.
Once you are gone, we will build a museum for you. The walls will be lined with bottles of firewater – your beloved beverage. Inside, we will store the odes to hubris that you call “pop-culture” and your cheap plastics.”
-Mohawk Guard, speaking to an American tourist at the Eastern Door Bridge.
The Iroquois or Haudenosaunee Confederacy’s founding is shrouded in ancient legend, passed on from generation to generation, speaking of the time the tribes were united through the Great Law of Peace as preached by the Great Peacemaker, a divinely inspired prophet. His revelations brought peace to the Haudenosaunee, leading them to a convocation where they planted a Tree of Peace and proclaimed the Great Binding Law of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. For centuries, the Confederacy remained a great power in North America, rivaling British and French settlers and masterfully playing them against one another. The Confederacy remained united until the American Revolution, when the Haudenosaunee kept its treaty promises to the British Crown and assisted them against the American revolutionaries. After their defeat, the British ceded Haudenosaunee territory without bringing their allies to the negotiating table, leading the Six Nations to abandon their lands. During this time, the Haudenosaunee become demoralized as more of their land was sold to white settlers, while disease, alcoholism and broken families ravaged the people. The United States and the Haudenosaunee signed treaty after treaty, each surrendering more of their historic homeland to the settlers, selling their lands for alcohol which drove them further to ruination.
Among many other Haudenosaunee plagued by this was a Seneca named Handsome Lake, who witnessed his people fall further and further into depravity and misery throughout his long life. In 1799, after a period of illness due to many years of excessive alcoholism, Handsome Lake had the visions that gave him the power to become a prophet. In his vision, he was warned by three spiritual messengers who presented him with ideals that he must enforce among his people. Shortly after Handsome Lake's first vision, he ceased drinking alcohol and when he regained his health, he preached against drunkenness and other evil practices. His teachings were encoded in wampum and spread through the Six Nations as Gaihwi:io, the Good Message. The faith combined traditional Haudenosaunee religious beliefs with a revised code meant to revive traditional consciousness to the Haudenosaunee after a long period of cultural disintegration.
Handsome Lake’s brother Cornplanter was a chief of the Seneca and one of the heads of the Confederacy during the Revolutionary War. While he wished for the Haudenosaunee to remain neutral, he reluctantly led his people against the Americans along with other chiefs. After the war he became a noted diplomat, meeting George Washington on several occasions requesting kinder treatment of his people, but to no avail. The British on their part were interested in the creation of an Indian buffer state separating British and American territories and once the War of 1812 broke out proceeded to promise Haudenosaunee an independent land in return for their assistance in the war. Despite his brother’s warnings, Cornplanter once more took the side of the British, as the other Nations united in a desperate attempt to take back their land – and lost his life in the war, leaving his brother as the Seneca chief. But as the war turned to disaster, the British were quick to forsake their allies and sign the Treaty of Ghent reneging on their promises. As peace with America remained uncertain, the British decided to throw a bone to the Iroquois to ensure their loyalty. What was then known as Grand Island on the Niagara River was turned over to Handsome Lake – a pacifist leader the British perceived as meek and unlikely to turn against them – and granted to him as a principality. The prophet called the surviving chiefs of the Confederacy to the island for a year of mourning - but it was also there that the Tree of Peace was planted anew, and the Great Fire was once more lit by the Grand Council of the Six Nations.
Shortly before his death in 1815 the Seneca were entrusted by Handsome Lake to carry on his work and spread Gaihwi:io among the Six Nations – but the true heir to his legacy was on his way to Niagara as he lay dying. Brother of the famed Tecumseh and a prophet to the Shawnee, Tenskwatawa was a man whose life greatly resembled the Seneca Prophet’s. Six years after Handsome Lake’s own visions, Tenskwatawa who too was an alcoholic, fell into a stupor so deep that he was believed dead – before awakening and proclaiming a revelation of an urgent need for rejection of the white man’s ways and purification of the people. His brother traveled constantly, spreading his message and eclipsing Tenskwatawa in prominence. He proclaimed that Native Americans owned their lands in common, and urged tribes not cede more territory unless all agreed – assembling a grand confederacy around his military prowess and his brother’s faith. Tecumseh too took part in the War of 1812 on the side of the British and was killed in battle in 1813, leading his confederacy to collapse – but turning him into a legend. Tenskwatawa fled into the wilderness and was believed dead before he and his band of followers arrived in Niagara in 1816, shortly after Handsome Lake’s death. Tenskwatawa fell on his knees before Handsome Lake’s mound and prayed for three days and three nights before proclaiming Handsome Lake to be the prophet he was sent to serve. His arrival to Niagara became a seminal point in the history of Gaihwi:io, as it made a faith of the Haudenosaunee into a faith uniting countless indigenous people: from his own Shawnee and Algonquian to the Cherokee, Sioux, Muskogee, Seminole, Dené, and others, with preachers from the misty shores of Niagara trekking across the continent, spreading Gaihwi:io. In Western historiography Tenskwatawa has been compared to Apostle Paul, spreading a Good Message intended for a certain people among the nations of the world: the influence of Tenskwatawa’s work is still felt today, as Gaihwi:io has become the largest religion among Native Americans and an inspiration for other faiths. In particular, the Mormons consider Handsome Lake’s message to have been divinely inspired due to its similarity to the revelations experienced by Joseph Smith in the 1820’s, leading to the LDS Church considering Niagarans to be the descendants of the Lamanite people from the Book of Mormon.
While the British meant to hide the Haudenosaunee away on a miniscule island, the sovereignty of Niagara made it into a locus of indigenous culture, and Niagarans made great efforts to promote the Gaihwi:io by any means necessary. Once word of Sequoyah’s invention of the Cherokee syllabary reached Niagara, the principality sent messengers asking to be taught this inspired written word. While the famed polymath himself never set foot in the principality, some of his students reached Niagara, where they founded what would eventually be known as the School of Sequoyah and adapted their teacher’s script for Iroquois languages, helping further spread Gaihwi:io among indigenous peoples.
While Canada recognized the principality’s sovereignty, United States did not, considering Grand Island a part of Ontario province. This changed when the adjacent Navy Island was proposed to be the headquarters of the United Nations by an international committee in 1945. Navy Island was considered to be an ideal location as it lay on the boundary between three peaceful countries. While the proposal was ultimately turned down in favor of the current UN headquarters in New York City, the negotiating processes involved in the proposal laid ground for the first diplomatic talks between Washington and Niagara, leading to the principality’s recognition in 1947 and an invitation to join the UN – which was ignored until 1963, due to Niagara’s staunch refusal to recognize Roanoke, a self-proclaimed indigenous state.
The legal status of the principality itself is a matter of controversy. While both Canadian and American governments consider Niagara to be an Iroquois nation-state, the view if not shared by the Haudenosaunee who consider the sovereignty of the Six Nations to be extraterritorial and emphasize the deep link between the Haudenosaunee and the land. As such, they see Niagara as a sovereign territory that belongs to one of the Six Nations, and a holy site of the Gaihwi:io, recognizing the religion’s role in providing a meeting place for the Grand Council. To complicate things further, the principality issues Haudenosaunee passports on behalf of the Six Nations – and while Niagara’s population is around 40,000, over 100,000 Haudenosaunee possess Niagaran citizenship, presented as a legal document of the Confederacy itself.
Entry to the island is explicitly forbidden to all non-indigenous people, except for foreign diplomatic missions and foreign heads of state. As such, entry is limited to the Haudenosaunee and indigenous adherents of Gaihwi:io, who arrive twice a year to hear the Good Message proclaimed: at the Midwinter Thanksgiving in February and again at the Six Nations meeting in September, when the population of the island triples as Haudenosaunee and Gaihwi:io pilgrims arrive to the convocation, turning the tranquil forest-covered island into a bustling city.
"Race's descent", "Occidental haplogroup"... the Iroquois sure picked up some weird ideas along the way, it seems.
inb4 their faith is as anti-Semitic as the IRL Nation of Islam.
"Race's descent", "Occidental haplogroup"... the Iroquois sure picked up some weird ideas along the way, it seems.
inb4 their faith is as anti-Semitic as the IRL Nation of Islam.
Yup, I wouldn't read too much into it; that whole rant is actually a specific reference to Measurehead, a supremacist character in Disco Elysium.
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Although it could be fun to go to that level of specifics, I'mma think it's wise to limit myself to countries and 1st level subdivisions. Actually I just finished the first in the series - Scotland, Nova Scotia, and New Caledonia.
I'm thinking this is about 2 generations after the ISOT.
By the way, Queen Beatrice I is OTL's Princess Beatrice - she and a few minor royals were in Scotland at the time of the ISOT event. I'd welcome feedback.
P.S. Sorry the maps are as attachments rather than directly amongst the text, I had a tech problem I think when I tried to insert them.
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well that's what would most likely happen today if Belgium breaks
A continuation of my Song Industrializes TL
Going a bit on a limb about Europe, with the exception of Iberia, the Balkans and the majority of Eastern Europe
Premise is that the Muslims, without the conception of mongol invasion are able to deter the reconquista in multiple decisive wars, as well as under more stable leadership particularly the Mardanissids.
Without the Mongols, the Kievan Rus still would go strong and, especially with their absorption of the silk road's commercial powerhouse and their new use as the main european importer of Chinese goods would be able to effectively establish rus influence into the baltics, resulting in a less successful teutons, as well as the organization of expansion in the south and in the north respectively.
The fourth crusade would still be organized, however the Byzantines would never rise from their slump and eventually are forced into the kingdom of Nicaea. the Latin Empire is still a venetian vassal, the 2nd Serbian Empire is not yet at it's height, and Romania and Bulgaria are much more "Cumanian" as a result of no prolonged Mongol influence.
I also figure that the Khwarezmian Empire would become a long-lasting Persian monarch, to be replaced with a safavid-type dynasty. I also would believe that, similarly to Afghan to India, Central Asia would be the main invading point towards Persia, especially with no sacking of Bukhara.
If you have any ideas for the rest of europe (such as a better nation then england-france) or so forth, feel free to message or reply!
If Belgium breaks I highly doubt Flanders would join the Netherlands.
Does anyone remember that world map that someone posted with overlays of every border ever? What thread was it in and who posted it?
to be fair during the warring states period both the Ashikaga shogun and the emperor were puppets
Aw Jeez, its a thing? I just couldnt see them states ever siding with the south like that
Well, so long as the two of them and the Prime Minister or whatever this timeline's Japan has aren't all puppets.
Interesting to see the Kievan Rus' thriving.
Ah, I am more of a worldbuilder than a proper writer. I might try my hand at it, but I would definitely be alright with people dabbling around with it.
The timeline doesn't work: Naves de Tolosa was 1212, Mongols didn't take Baghdad until 1258. In any event, Muslim anti-reconquista efforts were always based in north Africa, which OTL was never invaded by the Mongols anyway. Muslims weren't generally in the habit of travelling halfway around the way to save other Muslim's bacon (heh) at the time, either: the Crusader capture of Jerusalem didn't see Muslims flocking from central Asia or Spain to help expel the infidel. No Muslim middle eastern power had the strategic reach and universalist ambitions to bail out Granada before the Ottomans (who didn't).
I can't speak for the author but perhaps contact with the Chinese economic juggernaut has created a greater sense of cultural solidarity?
That doesn't solve the chronological issues admittedly. Personally, I tend to believe that the Reconquista would be difficult to avert. However, I think it could happen, especially in a world as changed as this one must be.
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