Map Thread XX

[ItsaMapping]

if I can add some constructive disorder to this arrangement you have: Unlike the British Industrial Revolution, the folks made impoverished and immiserated in the process of a laissez faire industrial developmental model would either leave to the hills beyond borders to avoid the strains of industrial living, or stick around and agitate, so I'd imagine there's some instability in Song China. As China's market grows, you would also see chaos across the Silk Road as demand for goods increase, and volumes of trade increase: It would actually be very interesting to see railroads develop as a means of getting goods across Central Asia faster. On that note, the fortunes of folks on China's peripheries ranges from 'fucked' to 'not yet fucked': Either they are useful in gathering the resources to fuel the market, or China subsidizes a competitor group who will. Slavery in Southeast Asia would probably increase as a knock-on effect as well as low level constant warfare in the neighboring regions of Zomia. Depending on how China does it, the increasing efficiency of their direct trade links would likely siphon resources from elsewhere, particularly the Indian Ocean routes, resulting in instability there.

I'm liking your thoughts so far

Here is what I've made so far.
Steppe nomads have, for the most part, settled into organized chiefdoms with the majority of Mongolia being unified due to import of chinese goods and the organization of agricultural reform as a result of steel coming from the Song.
In place of Laos, there is a MASSIVE kongsi, with similarities being derived by the VOC and BEIC (basically being used to trade with china, cambodia, siam, etc.) and to have a direct control of slave labor, with connections being materialized in concessions isolated in central Cambodia to connect to this state. This entire affair has decentralized burma, laos, and northern Siam, and as a result has placed extraordinary stress on Indochina, with the resurgence of Viet rebels and the collapse of any actual contender to Chinese influence.

For future plans, I plan on having the Cumans as essentially a national silk road due to their massive benefit from it's existance and practical neutral stance. Chinese kongsi would conscribe the construction of the Silk Road Railway (named in china as Tianguo Lu aka Heavenly Road) Which would result in the formation of more localized tribal communities settling down as well as the Cumans having effective state society. Essentially, the Cumans are to act in a similar niche to the Golden horde with the development of pony expresses towards eastern europe due to influence and mandates from China towards Cumania.

This in turn would bring something of Chinese industrialization to the Rus' principalities, as instead of Western europe developing something similar to Chinese technology, Eastern Europe does. This would result in a drastic shift of the west to the east with the earlier surge of industrialization. Europe's hit of the Black Plague would be somewhat less due to no Genghis, however would still exist in part to maritime trade between China and Arabia and Cumania, however more emphasis on Maritime trade. This would result in Eastern Europe to be even MORE stronger in comparison to the West, and, due to no Mongols, Kiev still would remain a major city, and there could even be development of a Don-Volga canal system mandated by the Rus' principalities.

 

[Xibalba]

Very good map. Do i understand it correctly that the Visigoths, Ostrogoths and Vandals become some sort of foederati after their defeat?

Yes, indeed. They are client states of Rome for now. I did not plan for this in the original concept, but this seemed like the best way to showcase the barbarian kingdoms in the east before they where reintegrated back into the empire.

 

[Drex]

THE GREAT WAR
A naval incident in Port Balfour, OTL Nigeria, caused a crisis between France and Britain, that spiralled out of control, and the tangled web of alliances that had enveloped most of the world was suddenly triggered. The Great War is considered the largest conflict of TTL, despite not being that with the highest casualties (the collapse of the Raj and the Chinese Civil Wars got higher numbers, not to mention the impressive amount during the Decolonisation Wars put together), lasting from 1921 into 1924, and (arguablye) the Versailles Concordate triumphed, since Prussia was defeated and Russia fell into a civil conflict, while Britain remained, ultimately signing an arminstice with the Concordate which saw them lose almost no land, and being the basis of the Grand Alliance that would shape the world in the coming decades.
(Part of the same TL as most of my recent maps here).​

 

[Juneauv]

I have a question, on the OTL Worldas why are Northern Canada and the Northern Territory in Australia a darker colour than the rest of the map? I've looked through the forum for it but I can't find answers.

 

[Gokbay]

I have a question, on the OTL Worldas why are Northern Canada and the Northern Territory in Australia a darker colour than the rest of the map? I've looked through the forum for it but I can't find answers.

They are territories, that's the reason.


If you look at historical OTL maps (or to Puerto Rico in modern OTL maps) you'll see that US territories are darker coloured too.

They have less autonomy than regular subdivisions (States or Provinces). Places with higher autonomy also get lighter colours (like British Protectorates in contrast to Crown Colonies).

 

[Juneauv]

They are territories, that's the reason.


If you look at historical OTL maps (or to Puerto Rico in modern OTL maps) you'll see that US territories are darker coloured too.

They have less autonomy than regular subdivisions (States or Provinces). Places with higher autonomy also get lighter colours (like British Protectorates in contrast to Crown Colonies).

That explains it, thanks!

 

[Liam Johnson of The Army]

THE FIVE RUSSIAS(Somewhat unrealistic).
Backstory is That the Post-Soviet Collapse becomes really [CENSORED] violent and Russia becomes 5 nations. The Westernmost Russia is a Right Wing military dictatorship. The Russia in Very dark red is a leftover of the old Soviet regime and is an Orthodox Marxist-Leninist Dictatorship. The Russia in West Siberia is a fairly non-ideological dictatorship focused merely on its own survival and potentially reunifying Russia. The Russia in Central Siberia is a Liberal Democracy aligned with the west. The Russia in the Far East is an Anti-Western Dictatorship who has courted the fauvor of China in order to gain economic aid.
Notes:
1.Karelia was taken by the finland during all this mess
2.Russian Caucasus divided into numerous tint warlord states(which is why its not included on the map)
3. In the hole left by the violent implosion of Russia Eastern Europe was quickly subsumed into either the chinese or american spheres of influence.
4. The Russian States have become a battleground between the USA and PRC.

 

[DaniCBP]

THE BIRTHPLACE OF EMPIRES​

In an alternate timeline, this is how Europe, the birthplace of empires, looks:
(1: political map, 2: ethnic map, 3: flag map)

The great powers of Europe are 5:
-The Kingdom of Italy, centered on the Italian Peninsula, stretching all the way into Dalmatia and the Sahara, with the Tunis Autonomous Region being its only territory in Africa proper.
-The German Empire, the center of the German People, in the heart of europe.
-The French Republic, with its promotion of equality, liberty and fraternity.
-The Spanish Republic, an old power, whose massive reserves of minerals in the Peninsula, and the big oil reserves near the Canary Islands, made it a wealthy and strong state in international politics.
-Great Britain, the one who ruled the waves.
Some other powers are still around, such as the Austrian Federal Republic, the Ottoman Sultanate, or the Russian Republic.

You can see the great diversity of this continent, although some places are more caothic and conflictive than others...

I don't have a full timeline on how Europe ended looking like that, but any questions about the countries, ethnicities, borders, etc, will be welcomed.

 

[Light Jammings]

THE BIRTHPLACE OF EMPIRES​

In an alternate timeline, this is how Europe, the birthplace of empires, looks:
(1: political map, 2: ethnic map, 3: flag map)

View attachment 635111
The great powers of Europe are 5:
-The Kingdom of Italy, centered on the Italian Peninsula, stretching all the way into Dalmatia and the Sahara, with the Tunis Autonomous Region being its only territory in Africa proper.
-The German Empire, the center of the German People, in the heart of europe.
-The French Republic, with its promotion of equality, liberty and fraternity.
-The Spanish Republic, an old power, whose massive reserves of minerals in the Peninsula, and the big oil reserves near the Canary Islands, made it a wealthy and strong state in international politics.
-Great Britain, the one who ruled the waves.
Some other powers are still around, such as the Austrian Federal Republic, the Ottoman Sultanate, or the Russian Republic.

View attachment 635109
You can see the great diversity of this continent, although some places are more caothic and conflictive than others...

View attachment 635110

I don't have a full timeline on how Europe ended looking like that, but any questions about the countries, ethnicities, borders, etc, will be welcomed.

What happened to the bulgarians

 

[Nyegosh]

What happened to the bulgarians

Seems like they got destroyed pretty much

OTL this ALMOST happened - nearly the entire orthodox population was slowly switching to Greek (phanariotes tried to do it to all the balkan countries) - Russians stopped it and basically renewed the Bulgarian language

I guess here something similar happened except instead of hellenization it's turkification and the remnants simply merged with the Serbs

 

[Quantum Immortal]

Mirin' that unique Cronenberg-thicc Bosnia, and Snek Austria.

 

[Yankeewolf]

How will the US deal with losing a war? Will they play nicer with Britain or vow revenge?

Also, how did this happen? What drove the Consecrated States out of the Union?

I like this scenario; I hope to see more.

It will probably be a little bit of both. There are counterbalancing incentives at play for the South and the Midwest here who now comprise the bulk of the Union. The South knows damn well that if they try and take over the Consecrated States, while they stand a good chance of winning, the South would also once again be outnumbered and the Institution of Slavery would be put in direct jeopardy as well as the South losing its centrality to the United States in terms of culture and economic might.
The Midwest knows that they are outnumbered in terms of a free state to slave state ratio and thus it's not only nationalist irredentism that compels them to be revanchist towards the Consecrated States, but also fear that they may be dominated by the Slave Power in time. This isn't 100% accurate though, there are plenty of Southerners who are Revanchist against the Consecrated States and plenty of Midwesterners/Westerners who would rather for peace with the Consecrated States.
There's a tight balancing act to be had here, as with the end of the war in 1864, the Rump Union has a ratio of 15 slave states to 11 free states, a clear majority for the slave states, but not overwhelmingly so.

Like I said, it's a basic reversal of the American Civil War, using the 11 states that seceded from America as a baseline. There's no real lore to explain it, just some nebulous "Fugitive Slave law something something John Brown something something William Lloyd Garrison something something ".

 

[DaniCBP]

What happened to the bulgarians

They don't exist. Well, in fact, the south slavic populations never reached the majority in the area, and the 400-year-long Ottoman domination displaced the Greeks and South Slavic peoples living in the area, with some groups turning into Islam, as a stronger Turkification was enforced. (Note that in OTL, before the Balkan Wars, Northeastern Bulgaria and Dobruja had a turkish majority.)
And so, the area is populated by a majority of Turks, and minorities of Serbs on the border areas, and Muslim Slavs are scattered on the territory.

 

[MittleGittle]

View attachment 634466Version 2.0, I think I’ll make a thread for a scenario like this

The thread has arrived!

 

[Votre Idéolinguiste Local]

THE BIRTHPLACE OF EMPIRES​

In an alternate timeline, this is how Europe, the birthplace of empires, looks:
(1: political map, 2: ethnic map, 3: flag map)

View attachment 635111
The great powers of Europe are 5:
-The Kingdom of Italy, centered on the Italian Peninsula, stretching all the way into Dalmatia and the Sahara, with the Tunis Autonomous Region being its only territory in Africa proper.
-The German Empire, the center of the German People, in the heart of europe.
-The French Republic, with its promotion of equality, liberty and fraternity.
-The Spanish Republic, an old power, whose massive reserves of minerals in the Peninsula, and the big oil reserves near the Canary Islands, made it a wealthy and strong state in international politics.
-Great Britain, the one who ruled the waves.
Some other powers are still around, such as the Austrian Federal Republic, the Ottoman Sultanate, or the Russian Republic.

View attachment 635109
You can see the great diversity of this continent, although some places are more caothic and conflictive than others...

View attachment 635110

I don't have a full timeline on how Europe ended looking like that, but any questions about the countries, ethnicities, borders, etc, will be welcomed.

what are the languages in the Baltics ?

 

[DaniCBP]

what are the languages in the Baltics ?

From North to South:
- Estonian
- Livonian
- Latvian (here named Courlandish)
- Lithuanian

 

[Saya Aensland]

From North to South:
- Estonian
- Livonian
- Latvian (here named Courlandish)
- Lithuanian

Is TTL Livonian a Baltic or Finnic language?

 

[DaniCBP]

Is TTL Livonian a Baltic or Finnic language?

As in OTL, a Finnic language. In OTL the last Livonian speaker died a few years ago, but in TTL the language survived the modern era without being replaced by Estonian (whom it is related to) and Latvian.

 

[Votre Idéolinguiste Local]

From North to South:
- Estonian
- Livonian
- Latvian (here named Courlandish)
- Lithuanian

based

 

[Kloka]

One Does Not Simply Build A City In Front of Mordor: An Alternate History of Gondor
The premise of this map is Isildur builds the city of Minas Ithil atop the Emyn Arnen instead of the Morgul Pass at Anarion's nagging over the safety of civilians. The butterflies set off by this is one of a defensive Gondor that is far better prepared against external threats but dominated by the rule of the Gondorian Tripolis: Osgiliath, the political and economic hub of Gondor; Minas Anor with its guild halls and noisome streets; and Minas Ithil, a quiet city of the arts and mysticism. The history of the Southern Kingdom would come to be shaped by the Kin-strife, a civil war fought between the land-based domains of the Tripolis and the nobility of the seaward south.

Whatever I have not sourced from canon are derived from LOTRO, Lindefirion, MERP, even the Middle-Earth: Shadows series. The flags are of my own design. Some notes within the spoilers:

Spoiler: Administration

Capital: Osgiliath
Ethnicities: Dunedain, Daen (Men of the Mountains), Rohirrim, Dunlendings, Haruze, Druedain, Sindar Elves, Nandor Elves, Gondorians of mixed descent
Government: Feudal Monarchy (under joint regency of the Ruling Stewards and Ruling Captains)

1st column of flags:
Lamedon- capital: Calembel; territory type: province; autonomous districts: Morthond Vale (Erech), Ringlo Vale (Ethring)
Anfalas- capital: Lond Galen; territory type: province; autonomous districts: Pinnath Gelin (Rond Rhandir), Andrast (Thargrondost)
Isendale- capital: Freaham; territory type: fief of House Siric; autonomous districts: Druwaith Iaur (Geann-a-Lish)
2nd column of flags:
Anorien- capital: Minas Anor; territory type: royal demesne (under regency of the Ruling Captains of the House Eorl); autonomous districts: Lossarnach (Arnach)
Rohan- capital: Edoras; territory type: fief of House Eorl; autonomous districts: Eastmark (Snowbourn), Westmark (Grimslade), Northmark (Forlaw)
3rd column of flags:
Ithilien- capital: Minas Ithil; territory type: royal demesne (under regency of the Ruling Stewards of the House Hurin); autonomous districts: Thenidarnen (Arnen)
Harondor- capital: Galadrin; territory type: fief of House Hurin; autonomous districts: Nurithilien (Haudh in Gwanur), Ethir Harnen (Gobel Mirlond), Aegardh (Tharven)
4th column of flags:
Lebennin- capital: Pelargir; territory type: province; autonomous districts: Ethir Anduin (Ethilorn)
Belfalas- capital: Dol Amroth; territory type: fief of House Dol Amroth; autonomous districts: Dor-en-Ernil (Linhir), Tolfalas (Gilros)
Dor Rhunen- capital: Rhovanost; territory type: military frontier

Spoiler: History

-Strictly military fortifications are built at the Morgul Pass: the Nimannon (White Gates), watched over by the Tower of the Seer (Cirith Ungol) and the Tower of the Sage (OTL Minas Morgul). A Nazgul attack and Ithilian counterattack (led by King Earnur and Captain of the Hosts Baranor, a man of Haradrim origin) results in the former being corrupted to become the Morgul Gate and the latter to become the King's Gate, defended by the Gatewatch, an elite guard equipped with enchanted gear made by the rune-carvers of Minas Ithil.
-4 chains of beacons are built early on: the western chains are visible from Minas Anor, the east to Minas Ithil. The northwest hills formerly extended to Isengard but were ruined over the years; those that remain lead to Edoras. The southwest chain follows the positions of the hills in LOTRO. The northeast passes by the King's Gate and ends at the Morannon, primarily concerned with Orc attacks from Mordor. The southern chain ends in Haudh in Gwanur.
-The Ithilduin still became the polluted Morgulduin; the river now cannot be easily forded and all communications/travel must be by bridge. The bridge near the King's Gate is less secure, so Ithilien's administration is split: the forested frontier of the north is Ithilien proper, linked to the city via the nearer bridge along the Anduin; the south is the hilly pastoral Thenidarnen.
-With the fall of the line of Anarion, rule of Gondor is split between three powers: the Ruling Stewards of House Hurin in Minas Ithil, the chief executive and the face of Gondor in foreign affairs; the Ruling Captains of House Baranor in Minas Anor, who lead the military and govern the frontier provinces; and the Council of Gondor, a parliament made of representatives from the various provinces and fiefs with domain over legislature. The royal demesne would be split as well: Anorien to the Captains, Ithilien to the Stewards, Osgiliath to the Council.
-The 4 palantiri (seeing-stones) are placed in Orthanc in Isengard, the Dome of Stars in Osgiliath, the Seaward Tower in Dol Amroth, and new fortifications atop a bridge over the Falls of Rauros called Brandirost, straddling Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw. The Sea-kings move the Dol Amroth-stone to their palace in Pelargir, where it was lost in the Kin-strife. The Brandirost-stone was taken by Sauron's forces during the Wainrider Wars, most likely to Dol Guldur.
-The nobles of South Ithilien had rebelled during the Kin-strife and were stripped of their estates. To bolster the economy of the devastated Harondor against Haradrim raids and Umbar corsairs, Nurithilien ("lower Ithilien") is added to the southern province, providing food and trade overland rather than by sea.
-Umbar remains under the line of Castamir; there is no serious attempt at retaking the haven due to the heavily weakened navy and devastated port of Pelargir. Thus Corsairs plague much of the coast and the provinces of the south do not provide as much manpower to the national army, preferring to keep their men guarding their shores.
-Post-Kin-strife, citizenship and rights would be extended to those not of Dunedan descent and of mixed blood. This would aid in maintaining the loyalty of the Haruze in Aegardh and the Northrons of Dor Rhunen & Rhovanion. The latter would be important as three waves of Northmen horse-riders would seek refuge in Gondor. First, some Rhovaniotes under Marhari were allowed to settle in the eastern lands of Calenardhon (Rohan) during the Wainrider Wars; when the Balchoth attacked Rhovanion some centuries later, the remaining Eastbighters would ride with Steward Cirion to make homes in its western lands; and Captain Borondir would call Eorl's people from the upper Anduin when it became clear they were outmatched by the Balchoths. The Ruling Captain falls in battle, ending the line of Baranor. Steward Cirion offers the now-Northmen-populated Calenardhon to Eorl as an allied kingdom. Eorl refuses, as the two other horse-rider peoples would rather respect Gondor and Cirion's rule over his. Insistent, Cirion instead names Eorl the new Ruling Captain with Rohan as his personal fief.
-In homage to Baranor's Haradrim lineage and to assure the Harondorians that they would not be forgotten by the new Northron Captains, the Stewards marry into the Southron nobles of Harondor. From Hurin II onward, the House of Hurin definitely have more Southron physical traits such as darker curly hair and brown skin.
-Rohan is divided based on the settlement of the three clans of the Rohirrim, who share certain cultural traits but have drifted apart over the years. Eastmark is populated by the Marharingas, refugees from the Wainriders, who have assimilated the most into Gondorian culture and become farmers along the Entwash. Westmark is home to the urban Waldingas or former Eastbighters; most of their towns are wood forts tucked into mountain vales and hidden in forest groves. The Eorlingas were those who came from the upper Anduin and settled in the Northmark; they remain mostly pastoral and militaristic, keeping watch over the barren Wold and untamed Wildermore. The Folde is the capital area from which the House of Eorl rules the fief.
-The offering of fiefdom is similarly given to the Dunlendings when a group of them under Lord Wulf Frecason began to feud with the Rohirrim under Captain Helm Hammerhand, who endured a siege in what would be called Helm's Deep. His eldest son Haleth was leading troops at the time against the Corsairs and could not spare troops to aid. Steward Beregond, eager for peace with their neighboring peoples, instead brokered a deal between Siric (a Dunlending chief) and his younger son Hama, who married off his sister Bernwyn to the Dunman in exchange for peace between their people. When Beregond and Haleth came to relieve Helm from the siege come spring, Helm was so incensed that he went to strike down Siric, only for Hama instead to be killed by his fists when he stepped between them. Siric became Lord of Isendale; a traumatized Haleth gave up his right to the Captaincy to find peace in the Three Cities; Helm was exiled, leaving his seat to his cousin Frealaf.
-To avoid future situations where Rohan's sons would be torn away from their home province, the military province of Harondor was given over the the Stewards as a fief; its defenses would now be on the sons of the Stewards. Their main domain is Laergaladrin for its central position; the inland Galadrin was picked over the more populous port of Methir due to the threat of Corsairs.
-The Anrammas (Long Walls) are built after the Balchoth War as an additional round of defense over the Tripolis. The term Pelennor comes to refer to the rural lands encircled by the walls outside of the cities: the Pelennor Fields on the west bank and the Pelennor Hills on the east.
-Isenvale has trouble mediating between the Druedain and Dunlendings who begin settling the left bank of the Isen, leading to conflicts. Saruman offers his aid to its ailing prince; in return, the wizard gains control over Orthanc. The capital is moved to Freaham.

Would you consider writing a fanfic set in this universe?