Map Thread XVIII

[Pipcard]

My God. You seem to ignore that I've said it is bad. I'm not going to engage in this conversation any more.

The problem isn't that you said ethnic expulsion was bad. The problem is that you basically said ethnic expulsion would be acceptable for Algerians because they're not a "western" country.

One of my biggest annoyances is the notion that only the "west" can be socially progressive and tolerant.

 

[Clandango]

View attachment 413303 I've decided to move my Alternate WW1 over to worlda. (WWI was between France, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Russia, Belgium, and Turkey in the Entente and Germany, Romania, Mecca and GB in the Hamburg pact, and Serbia fighting A-H but keeping ties with the Russians)

Seems Arabia would be a more appropriate term than Mecca. Also, are the Dutch guarding the French borders?

 

[Hapsburg]

Pending any further revisions of the physical map, here's a political map of the same continent, at the start of the missus' D&D campaign set therein.

The year is the 819th of the Imperial Calendar, though the Old Empire is long gone. At the dawn of the fifty century, the Empire's peacekeepers, the Order of Dragonriders, mysteriously disappeared along with their dragons. Without that force to keep the peace, the human tribal kingdoms on the frontier became bolder and seized more land held by the dwarven marches, exacerbated by the advent of a new threat: Orcs from beyond the Ucral Mountains, riding out of the desert on horseback and in vast numbers. Over the next century, the Orc khans trampled over the West and carved a vast empire, demanding tribute from the kingdoms and cities subjugated to their rule. But a civil war between two Orcish khans weakened them, and enabled some measure of independence to foster among the tributary states. During this time, a monastic order of women peacekeepers emerged that began to establish some semblance of international justice, attempting to lessen the devastation caused by centuries of emerging feudal warfare among the post-Imperial successor states.
In the year 819, this fragile peace was about to be broken as the Orc khans once again assembled as a unified body and decided to refill their coffers by raiding the fertile and wealthy kingdoms that had emerged in the Dorei and Athua valleys.

 

[Library of Alexandria]

Seems Arabia would be a more appropriate term than Mecca. Also, are the Dutch guarding the French borders?

1. It's headed by the sultan of mecca

2., that's the demilitarization setup from SUCK.

Edit: thought you said Saudi Arabia. You're right.

 

[Beedok]

View attachment 413303 I've decided to move my Alternate WW1 over to worlda. (WWI was between France, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Russia, Belgium, and Turkey in the Entente and Germany, Romania, Mecca and GB in the Hamburg pact, and Serbia fighting A-H but keeping ties with the Russians)

So, 4 of Europe's great powers, with the help of a couple of middle powers, lost massively to two great powers with help from one middle power and one minor power? When was the war, and was the political situation in France, Austria-Hungary, and Russia just really unstable to start with?

 

[Library of Alexandria]

So, 4 of Europe's great powers, with the help of a couple of middle powers, lost massively to two great powers with help from one middle power and one minor power? When was the war, and was the political situation in France, Austria-Hungary, and Russia just really unstable to start with?

It began in 1913 with France demanding Alsace-lorraine. The only Nations that could realistically put up a fight were Italy and France, the latter of which would be fighting on 2 fronts. Russia, A-H, and the Ottomans would not fair well. Germany and GB were really powerful back then, Britain with its colonies and Germany with the industry, against a bunch of backwards serfdoms, and two states with two front to worry about, would not be a very close fight.

 

[Tert2567]

The entire concept, especially related to minorities and 100% Russian Orthodox membership

Okay than see
Country that I painted have state religion. Is it bad? A lot of countries have it in OTL. For example Greece, Denmark, Norway and Georgia do.
Also country that I painted haven't got national minorities autonomy. Is it problem? I don't think so. A lot of multinational countries don't have it in OTL. For example your homeland USA have so much groups of indigenous people and don't have any autonomy. China have only 4 autonomies for 55 ethnic minorities. But OTL Russia has huge Karelia republic where are only 7% karelians and 82% russians.

Just poppin’ in to say YIKES.

Sorry don't understand your slang

Now, you don't seem to be endorsing the ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation

Yes, I don't. Why should I like forced assimilation? It's terrible. Assimilation can be caused only by economics and natural causes

I think we have another racist Russian here.

Oh I like the way you draw conclusions based on literally nothing

 

[XFE]

Also country that I painted haven't got national minorities autonomy. Is it problem? I don't think so. A lot of multinational countries don't have it in OTL. For example your homeland USA have so much groups of indigenous people and don't have any autonomy. China have only 4 autonomies for 55 ethnic minorities. But OTL Russia has huge Karelia republic where are only 7% karelians and 82% russians.

While I disagree with your politics, I agree you shouldn't be kicked/banned, but will have to raise this point:

Doesn't America have Tribal Reservations? Yes, they were barely respected along history (I can't comment on anything in modern day America), but I doubt your claim that Native Americans lack any theoretical autonomy as of 2018. Perhaps on par if not better than Russia's situation.

I know a bit more about China--regarding China, it is far more homogeneous than Russia. Ethnic minorities (in the Chinese Southwest, most prominently) have been assimilated and decimated so much that a minority of ethnic Han Chinese constitute a plurality. It would be unfair to create more province-level autonomies. As such, China's approach is to establish county-level autonomies alongside the 4 province-level autonomies. Even considering only the province-level autonomies, the Zhuang People are in pretty much the same shoes as the Karelians you raise.

 

[ST15RM]

Okay than see
Country that I painted have state religion. Is it bad? A lot of countries have it in OTL. For example Greece, Denmark, Norway and Georgia do.
Also country that I painted haven't got national minorities autonomy. Is it problem? I don't think so. A lot of multinational countries don't have it in OTL. For example your homeland USA have so much groups of indigenous people and don't have any autonomy. China have only 4 autonomies for 55 ethnic minorities. But OTL Russia has huge Karelia republic where are only 7% karelians and 82% russians.


Sorry don't understand your slang


Yes, I don't. Why should I like forced assimilation? It's terrible. Assimilation can be caused only by economics and natural causes


Oh I like the way you draw conclusions based on literally nothing

1. But is that really your ideal state? If I said that the ideal america should have mormonism as it’s state religion, is that really ideal?

2. Even then it should be stopped. I’m not gonna let someone die even if they would die of natural causes.

 

[Tert2567]

While I disagree with your politics, I agree you shouldn't be kicked/banned, but will have to raise this point:
Doesn't America have Tribal Reservations?

There are terrible conditions. High child mortality and unemployment

1. But is that really your ideal state? If I said that the ideal america should have mormonism as it’s state religion, is that really ideal?

What's the problem with just nominal line in constitution about state religion? Orthodox is historical religion of Russia, mark of our Byzantium continuity.

2. Even then it should be stopped. I’m not gonna let someone die even if they would die of natural causes.

They don't die dude. They just changing their first language to russian. I don't think that we must "DESTROY ALL MINORITIES". But Kazan must be capital of Kazan oblast, not Tatarstan republic

 

[Clandango]

Okay than see
Country that I painted have state religion. Is it bad? A lot of countries have it in OTL. For example Greece, Denmark, Norway and Georgia do.
Also country that I painted haven't got national minorities autonomy. Is it problem? I don't think so. A lot of multinational countries don't have it in OTL. For example your homeland USA have so much groups of indigenous people and don't have any autonomy. China have only 4 autonomies for 55 ethnic minorities. But OTL Russia has huge Karelia republic where are only 7% karelians and 82% russians.

Keep in mind that was originally made to lay claim to Finland. And that the Soviets basically ethnically cleansed Russia of Finnish-Canadians, Finnish-Americans, Finns, Estonians, and Izhorians. I doubt the Karelian had a fun time of things either, and the majority fled to Finland. Also, Denmark and Norway have it as a kinda-sorta thing. They don't have the history of caesaropapism that Russia does. Also, that thing about Kazan seems a bit odd. It is just a name.

 

[Mina-van-Mako]

What's the problem with just nominal line in constitution about state religion? Orthodox is historical religion of Russia, mark of our Byzantium continuity.

Well, Orthodox Church already has a huge power. I mean, there is no problem with acknowledging an Orthodox heritage. Still it's not reasonnable to write some faith in a Constitution as state religion. Reactionnary politicians would use it as a justification to get rid or marginalize people from other faith and people who don't fit the faith's criterias.

 

[KaiserEmu]

There are terrible conditions. High child mortality and unemployment

But it does not change the fact that they still have autonomy.

What's the problem with just nominal line in constitution about state religion? Orthodox is historical religion of Russia, mark of our Byzantium continuity.

Wikipedia says that now only 42% of Russians identify with Orthodoxy. Historical religion is different to current religion. By that standard the Egyptian constitution should have a line praising Ra.

And anyway, saying it’s your “ideal state” pushes it firmly into current politics. If you made that map, with an alternate history of Russia whereby it evolved into a unitary republic with Orthodoxy as the state religion, and a write up explaining how, it would be a good post. Instead you simply stated that it was a “Russian National State” with no autonomy for minorities and a state religion, and that that was your ideal Russia.

Considering the context of recent weeks, it’s understandable that that will leave a bad taste in people’s mouths.

 

[Skallagrim]

At this point, a guy has explained his ideas, and while some (including me) may very much disagree with his centralist preferences, he's clearly not in favour of any human rights violations. "Not being in favour of legally enshrining minority languages" =/= "wanting to wipe out minorities". Trying to drag out the discussion just messes up the thread. Can we drop it, and get back to mapping?


Alright, to both run with the silly theme of "controversial subjects" and at the same time wholly deconstruct it, have a little preview of my future history scenario, The Second Golden Age of Islam:

This is set in 2200, about a century after the world started recovering from the great political and economic collapse of the late 21st century. Yes that's a majority Islamic Western Europe. Yes, that's a hispanic-majority South-Western USA(-that-was). And yes, that's not only your run-of-the-mill "New Afrika", but one that's largely embraced Islam.

Here's the twists:

-- The Caliphate of Paris is very much like the Caliphate of Baghdad, a centre of science and philosophy that has dragged large swathes of Europe out of self-inflicted ruination. In a somewhat ironic twist of fate, the Caliphate has its hands full dealing with fundamentalist Christian/identitarian terrorists and separatists, who are backed by the Holy Union of Saint Benedict (that huge confederal thing in Eastern Europe, which is deeply reactionary and irridentist).

-- The USA has stopped existing anyway, the office of President-General of the North American League has become hereditary, and the NAU is in personal union with the Empire of New Spain. Absolutely nobody cares that certain states are direct members of both polities, since it's commonly believed they'll be outright merging within the next two decades.

-- New Afrika enjoys rather good relations with the neighbours, and seceded from the NAU peacefully and legally. The strain of Islam adopted by the majority of its inhabitants is pretty mellow, and it's fairly common to see some fresh-faced missionary going door to door with his Quran in neighbouring Appalachia. (Chances are he'll be invited in for tea, although his evangelising efforts will probably not be very successful in a country that's a bit curmudgeonly conservative and Protestant. But some of his 'collegues' will no doubt have better luck in Tidewater, which is big on trans-Atlantic trade with the Parisian Caliphate and very open to cross-cultural influences.)


(The whole point of the scenario is to take typical "doom and gloom" predictions you tend to see -- the USA breaking up, Europe collapsing, "Eurabia!!!", "New Afrika!!!", "Aztlan!!!" etc. -- and make them all come true, but have them represent a hopeful and largely okay future instead. Not that it'a utopia or something: as the far right corners of the map already hint, Russia didn't come out of the great collapse unscathed by a long shot. But things might be looking up there, too...)

 

[The State of Sealand]

By that standard the Egyptian constitution should have a line praising Ra.

oh, come on, you are falling to the darkest abyss of demagogy.
your analogy is incorrect: ancient egyptian faith was replaced by christianity and then islam like 2000 years ago, wasn't it? modern egyptian culture has nothing in common with the old one. on the other hand, orthodoxy was state religion and people's religion of russians just a hundred years ago — and then nice guys of sickle'n'hammer came in to destroy it.
and yes, who said this one is of 2018? maybe it takes place in 1920s being just reformed russian empire. if so, most of its population still is christian orthodox, and thus having orthodoxy as a state religion is pretty reasonable. also remember that 'state religion'≠'a religion everyone in the country must belong to'

btw, where does the ethnic cleansing thing you're all talking about come from? he didn't say anything like this, stop being so paranoid (especially calbear, khm)

 

[KaiserEmu]

oh, come on, you are falling to the darkest abyss of demagogy.
your analogy is incorrect: ancient egyptian faith was replaced by christianity and then islam like 2000 years ago, wasn't it? modern egyptian culture has nothing in common with the old one. on the other hand, orthodoxy was state religion and people's religion of russians just a hundred years ago — and then nice guys of sickle'n'hammer came in to destroy it.

It was my way of pointing out that demographics change, and a historically significant religion may not have the same importance any more.

and yes, who said this one is of 2018? maybe it takes place in 1920s being just reformed russian empire. if so, most of its population still is christian orthodox, and thus having orthodoxy as a state religion is pretty reasonable. also remember, that 'state religion'≠'a religion everyone in the country must belong to'

The “ideal state” thing, plus the lack of historical write up, made me think it was closer to the present. Happy to be proven wrong though.

btw, where does the ethnic cleansing thing you're all talking about come from? he didn't say anything like this, stop being so paranoid (especially calbear, khm)

He hasn’t said anything about ethnic cleansing. But the last poster of a unitary Russia with abolition of minorities’ autonomy turned out to be quite the fan. I think it’s reasonable not to want those people here, and I think that’s what CalBear is trying to determine. Personally, I’m convinced that @Tert2567 is not like that. I think it was a miscommunication, coupled with recent events, that turned the map thread into a political war zone.

I’m going to let it go now, but I think further discussion on these issues should perhaps be redirected to Chat.

So let’s agree on a couple of things:

• Ethnic cleansing is bad. Really bad. And no one here is advocating it or wants it to happen.
• Let’s get back to maps. I’ve got one I’m nearly ready to share, and I suspect many others are the same. The more maps, the better; the less toxic arguing, the better.

Right! Let’s try to get this thing back on track.

 

[XFE]

The Second Golden Age of Islam

Interesting take on the Eurabia scenario--if certainly an implausible one. Really goes to show how silly alt-righters really are.

A couple questions--I understand it's an implausible scenario, but I suppose it'd have it's own set of logic:

• Is there a Parisian school of Islam? Is it doctrinally any different from "mainstream (I assume Sunni?) Islam"? Have there been European!Sikhs or European!Dīn-i Ilāhī movements?
  
• How Muslim is the Caliphate? Is it a Mughal Empire-type scenario or much more firmly Islamic? How did that come to be?

Very interested in the completed scenario!

 

[DrakonFin]

Okay than see
Country that I painted have state religion. Is it bad? A lot of countries have it in OTL. For example Greece, Denmark, Norway and Georgia do.
Also country that I painted haven't got national minorities autonomy. Is it problem? I don't think so. A lot of multinational countries don't have it in OTL. For example your homeland USA have so much groups of indigenous people and don't have any autonomy. China have only 4 autonomies for 55 ethnic minorities. But OTL Russia has huge Karelia republic where are only 7% karelians and 82% russians.

Is there a particular point of divergence for your world, BTW?

I have to say that as a Finn, I find the notion of Finland being a part of a unitary Great Russia without any political or cultural autonomy for the Finns, or any official position for the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church, a pretty dire situation. In the long term, it would spell the end of the Finns as an ethnic, linguistic and cultural group.

As for Russian Karelia, in 1920 when the first autonomous Karelian province, the Karelian Working People's Commune, was founded, it was over 60% Karelian. Various Stalinist policies (including ethnic gerrymandering, political repression and ethnically-targeted purges), the events of WWII and post-war Soviet policies have by the 21st century led to the situation where ethnic Karelians are a just a small minority in the Karelian Republic. As things stand, I can't exactly see this process in terms of Russian (or Soviet) support for the rights of ethnic Karelians.

 

[KaiserEmu]

The Second Golden Age of Islam

It appears as though Switzerland is still neutral. Some things never change...

 

[Clandango]

Is there a particular point of divergence for your world, BTW?

I have to say that as a Finn, I find the notion of Finland being a part of a unitary Great Russia without any political or cultural autonomy for the Finns, or any official position for the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church, as a pretty dire situation. In the long term, it would spell the end of the Finns as an ethnic, linguistic and cultural group.

As for Russian Karelia, in 1920 when the first autonomous Karelian province, the Karelian Working People's Commune, was founded, it was over 60% Karelian. Various Stalinist policies (including ethnic gerrymandering, political repression and ethnically-targeted purges), the events of WWII and post-war Soviet policies have by the 21st century led to the situation where ethnic Karelians are a just a small minority in the Karelian Republic. As things stand, I can't exactly see this process in terms of Russian (or Soviet) support for the rights of ethnic Karelians.

Heck, looking it up briefly it seems 400,000 Finns, Kareleians, and others left the areas Russia got form the Winter War (unsure if it included the rest of Karelia, so- wait. I just looked it up, and it seems that Vepps, Finnish, and Karelian are recognized languages, but they are not th eofficial language of the republic. Anyways, with the 400,000 people, if they reproduced at a sustainable fashion, they would likely be the plurality, if not the majority, today.