Map Thread XVIII

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Lusitania

Lusitania

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Black said:
That's fine, but I think that it makes since for Joseph to be given all of Iberia after the war. But having a Portuguese army in Brazil that can join the war is pretty cool and not something I considered. Unless you think there is something more likely that he would have done? The POd is in 1812.

I am playing to have a war between France and allies vs Russia, Britain, Austria, Germany in 1845. Haven't really decided what would happen yet.
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The Point is that it does not matter who you put on the throne of Spain, it is not the Iberian Union since the Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil stayed independent of both Spain and France during the Napoleonic wars. The Portuguese royal family, most of the Portuguese royal families and the government with the army was in Brazil. The French defeated a joint Portuguese- British army not defeated Portugal and annexed it. It is the same with the British, the French defeated the British and expelled from the Iberian Peninsula but Britain continued to be independent that is the same as with Portugal.
 
Lusitania

Lusitania

Donor
Clandango said:
Do you consider Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Iraq to still be kingdoms? Because they do still have pretenders. Also, Mr. Black referenced to the area as the Iberia Union. Fine enough. It is admittedly not the best map out there, if a country is conquered it is conquered. Some government-in-exile won't change that.
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But it was not government in exile the whole capital moved, lock stock and barrel. There is a huge difference. Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil actually occupied French Guiana and its troops continued controlling its colonies. So you have to understand that we are not talking about Dutch royals fleeing to Britain, no the government moved to another part of the country, Brazil.
 

Codae

Lusitania said:
The Point is that it does not matter who you put on the throne of Spain, it is not the Iberian Union since the Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil stayed independent of both Spain and France during the Napoleonic wars. The Portuguese royal family, most of the Portuguese royal families and the government with the army was in Brazil. The French defeated a joint Portuguese- British army not defeated Portugal and annexed it. It is the same with the British, the French defeated the British and expelled from the Iberian Peninsula but Britain continued to be independent that is the same as with Portugal.
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If Spain conquers the European part of Portugal, there's nothing stopping it from calling itself the Iberian Union even though the peninsula is united on a completely different basis than it was under the Habsburgs.
 
Lusitania

Lusitania

Donor
Codae said:
If Spain conquers the European part of Portugal, there's nothing stopping it from calling itself the Iberian Union even though the peninsula is united on a completely different basis than it was under the Habsburgs.
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They can call themselves anything they want, my point was that in the list of neutrals the Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil would listed beside Britain.

Also question what of France's colonies including the Carribean islands occupied by British and French Guina occupied by Portugal.
 
Black

Black

Lusitania said:
The Point is that it does not matter who you put on the throne of Spain, it is not the Iberian Union since the Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil stayed independent of both Spain and France during the Napoleonic wars. The Portuguese royal family, most of the Portuguese royal families and the government with the army was in Brazil. The French defeated a joint Portuguese- British army not defeated Portugal and annexed it. It is the same with the British, the French defeated the British and expelled from the Iberian Peninsula but Britain continued to be independent that is the same as with Portugal.
Click to expand...

Well Napoleon would want to legitimize his hegemony in Europe. So France and allies wouldn't recognize the government in Brazil. Perhaps other countries like Britain would I am not sure. Britain is in a kind of splendid isolation right now. But there are factions in the government which want to regsin power projection in Europe.

The main difference from Napoleon of our timeline and this one was that Napoleon decided to create some powerful allies on the fringes who wouldn't be a threat to his hegemony. I don't think Napoleon's exploitation of his allies is sustainable so in this scenario his endgame changed. Central Europe is kept weak, in the case of Prussia completely destroyed in the last coalition. The confederation of the Rhine is made a kingdom (not sure who should rule it yet). Austria military was neutered.

Italy and Croatia are weak but Sweden, Poland and Ottomans are stronger than our timeline (Sweden is the third most powerful after France and GB). However Ottomans are showing weakness as nationalism is rising, and they have huge debts from fighting with Russia.
 
Clandango

Clandango

Lusitania said:
But it was not government in exile the whole capital moved, lock stock and barrel. There is a huge difference. Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil actually occupied French Guiana and its troops continued controlling its colonies. So you have to understand that we are not talking about Dutch royals fleeing to Britain, no the government moved to another part of the country, Brazil.
Click to expand...
During WWII the British left the Channel Islands. They had basically been part of the lands of the King of England before England was a Kingdom. They were occupied by the Germans none-the-less. You can also think of it as the Soviets in the Baltic States, or Germany in Everywhere during WWII. Doesn't have to be fair. The maps just show what is happening. I would be MUCH more concerned as to why Denmark-Norway places second fiddle to Sweden, when the Swedes were the ones without a royal heir, and the Danes were the French allies. Though only after the British destroyed their entire fleet despite not being at war with them, leaving the Danes no chioce but to ally with France to avoid invasion.
 
Lusitania

Lusitania

Donor
Black said:
Well Napoleon would want to legitimize his hegemony in Europe. So France and allies wouldn't recognize the government in Brazil. Perhaps other countries like Britain would I am not sure. Britain is in a kind of splendid isolation right now. But there are factions in the government which want to regsin power projection in Europe.

The main difference from Napoleon of our timeline and this one was that Napoleon decided to create some powerful allies on the fringes who wouldn't be a threat to his hegemony. I don't think Napoleon's exploitation of his allies is sustainable so in this scenario his endgame changed. Central Europe is kept weak, in the case of Prussia completely destroyed in the last coalition. The confederation of the Rhine is made a kingdom (not sure who should rule it yet). Austria military was neutered.

Italy and Croatia are weak but Sweden, Poland and Ottomans are stronger than our timeline (Sweden is the third most powerful after France and GB). However Ottomans are showing weakness as nationalism is rising, and they have huge debts from fighting with Russia.
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Funny he recognized it as well as all of Europe till 1814. But what ever
 
Lusitania

Lusitania

Donor
Black said:
What do you think a victious Napoleon would do with it?
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He had agreed to give southern Iberian Peninsula to Godoy, decide if he will or not. the Northern part north of the Tagus river he would create the Republic of Lusitania like he did with the Dutch. When Godoy dies the Republic would receive the lands to the south, maybe Godoy heir become King of Algarve.

Also Spain is a basket case with thousands of French soldiers only controlling the territory as far as their guns. There were no roads and any infrastructure built was destroyed by the partisans. The French soldiers were constantly being attacked and while French had over 250,000 troops in the Iberian Peninsula to say they controlled anything beyond the major cities where they had large number of troops is fantasy. Defeating Wellington will not change any of that. Napoleon brother Joseph I government only governed Madrid and the rest of the country was controlled by partisans.

So the Idea of an Iberian Union is just not realistic to what happened iOTL and nothing you do will change that. It can be called that on the map but in reality it is a failed union and failed state.
 
Black

Black

Lusitania said:
He had agreed to give southern Iberian Peninsula to Godoy, decide if he will or not. the Northern part north of the Tagus river he would create the Republic of Lusitania like he did with the Dutch. When Godoy dies the Republic would receive the lands to the south, maybe Godoy heir become King of Algarve.

Also Spain is a basket case with thousands of French soldiers only controlling the territory as far as their guns. There were no roads and any infrastructure built was destroyed by the partisans. The French soldiers were constantly being attacked and while French had over 250,000 troops in the Iberian Peninsula to say they controlled anything beyond the major cities where they had large number of troops is fantasy. Defeating Wellington will not change any of that. Napoleon brother Joseph I government only governed Madrid and the rest of the country was controlled by partisans.

So the Idea of an Iberian Union is just not realistic to what happened iOTL and nothing you do will change that. It can be called that on the map but in reality it is a failed union and failed state.
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Hmm do you think Napoleon could establish a republic in Spain that might be loyal to him. I'm not married to the idea of an Iberian Union. But I wanna get a Europe that is fully under Napoleon at the end of the wars.
 
Lusitania

Lusitania

Donor
Black said:
Hmm do you think Napoleon could establish a republic in Spain that might be loyal to him. I'm not married to the idea of an Iberian Union. But I wanna get a Europe that is fully under Napoleon at the end of the wars.
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Honestly, I think that if Iberian Peninsula was split into various regional countries ) either Republic or kingdom and prominent people who either supported Republic or even Nationalistic ideas such as Catalonia, Castile, Galicia, Leon. The Iberian Union could exist with the French Emperor as its head but the individual Presidents and kings ruling their own countries. The people of the Iberian Peninsula will not accept foreign occupation and only way peace will exists is for France to withdraw its troops but without French troops the French imposter sitting on Spanish throne will not be accepted. Remember the French were holding the Spanish king and his family as prisoners.
 
Black

Black

upload_2018-10-2_14-51-31.png


What about something like this?
Napoleon rules in absentia. At his death a succession crisis will occur.

Portugal-Galicia, don't really know who would rule it. Kind of a place holder for now
Republic of Lusitania, highly loyal to Napoleon. French navy maintains a large presence here.
Kingdom of Leon, ruled by Louis Bonaparte. Relatively weak region.
Republic of Spain, highly disloyal only nominally supports the Union, often does not pay required taxes to Madrid. Only region to maintain relations with Great Britain to the chagrin of Napoleon.
Madrid, directly under French occupation. However in last decade most control has been handed over to Spanish officials.
Gibralter, captured by French not part of union
State of Granada, occupied by French, as a buffer state.
Kingdom of Catalonia. Relatively good terms with French rule. However many want the Barcelona region to be returned to their control.
Basque Republic, weakest region in the union but economically stable.
 
Black

Black

Clandango said:
During WWII the British left the Channel Islands. They had basically been part of the lands of the King of England before England was a Kingdom. They were occupied by the Germans none-the-less. You can also think of it as the Soviets in the Baltic States, or Germany in Everywhere during WWII. Doesn't have to be fair. The maps just show what is happening. I would be MUCH more concerned as to why Denmark-Norway places second fiddle to Sweden, when the Swedes were the ones without a royal heir, and the Danes were the French allies. Though only after the British destroyed their entire fleet despite not being at war with them, leaving the Danes no chioce but to ally with France to avoid invasion.
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Denmark is give lands in the partition of Prussia and is a French ally until the unionwith Sweden. Sweden becomes an important ally, conquering Finland and being given St. Petersburg.

The union between the two is separate from the war and not orchestrated by the French but is an amicable union between the two countries. Basically I was thinking Pan-Scandinavianism develops after the war of the last coalition.

The last coalition in the east was primarily won by a joint Swedish-Danish army which led to cooperation between the two countries. And eventually a union between the two countries years later. I am not sure if this is too small a timescale for something like this to happen, but that is waht I was going for.
 

xmoose

Black said:
Europe at the death of Napoleon in the year 1840.
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Napoleon died because of cancer or some other illness, I think, so he wouldn´t live much longer even if he stay on throne. I really do not think he would stay alive so longer...
Iberian union is ok, I would say (or at least I think that after french invasion Portugal was to be united with Spain under Joseph...) Dissolution of Prussia is ok too, unification of Italy as well, even if I am little bit skeptical that Nappy would give up Rome, the same goes for north Tirol (on the other hand I heard that some rebels there want to secede from Bavaria and return under Habsburg rule OR to unite with kingdom of Italy). Aaand really like independent (ehem) Holland, french Netherland AND northern Germany seems like really bad idea to me and it looks so un-estetical :D
But duchy of Silesia do not make sense to me - either give it to Habsburgs or to Poland or to "Germany". Which leads to another problem: united Germany. Some sort of (con)federation, union, alliance, whatever, that make sense, but united state (kingdom)? That would became serious rival to french hegemony over Europe, not to mention several monarchs which were Nappys loyal (um, sometime :D) allies, some of them even relatives (Jerome of Westphalia, N. youngest brother, N. step-son Eugene, some members of B. family have German princess as wifes...) and probably non of them would be keen to lose his sovereignty (even if more theoretical than factual)
Romania looks weird (but it isn t bad idea, in my opinion), the same can be said about Ukraine - I am not sure how that could even work, ouldn´t be more realistic Crimean khanate, as turkish vassal? With some western parts given to Poland...
 
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