Middlesex_Toffeeman
Banned
Ugh, HRE borders are bad enough IOTL without this... *vomits, creating seven new nation-states in the progress*.
Good map though.
Map Thread XVIII
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Ugh, HRE borders are bad enough IOTL without this... *vomits, creating seven new nation-states in the progress*.
Good map though.
Amazing map, especially the symbols for the various Christian denominations.
I think it'd be interesting to look into actual rates of mass attendance, that I think would show better the degree of religiosity of the provinces, as for instance, cultural Catholics seem to have a much higher tendency to identify as Catholic even if they are agnostics than cultural Protestants, and that may be why Québec appears to be so much more religious than it might actually be.
The Two Netherlands
For the last 400 years, the Netherlands and its former colony, the New Netherlands have had a tied history.
Initially a string of factories centered around New Amsterdam, the colonies would dramatically grow in size starting in the middle of the 17th century thanks to better managed land policies and influx of settlers from Dutch Brazil. Despite some conflicts with the English colonies they would grow alongside their northern english neighbours and New Amsterdam would quickly become one of the main port of North America. The 18th century saw consolidation of the factories into several provinces who, contrary to other colonies became directly administered by governors appointed by the stadtholder.
Dutch settlers were initially few, although many came during the 18th century who had lost their land to floods, as well as many Flemish. It’s relations with the mother country would dramatically change at the turn of the 19th century, when the Netherlands would be invaded by France, which would prompt many Dutch to flee to the Americas, When they finally got their freedom back, the colony wasn’t satisfied by its status and following years of negotiation, became an equal to the home country, having nearly half its population.
The Netherlands, which got part of the former Hapsburg Netherlands, would quickly industrialise at the start of the 19th century, at the same time so would it’s American counterpart, influenced by the British colonies in New England, the later would experience dramatic growth from immigration, the construction of the Noortrivier canal would link it with the Great Lakes and the heartland of America, and it would become a gate to the interior of America, millions of Italian, German or Irish migrants would arrive to the new world in the port of New Amsterdam, while many would leave to the west, the city’s economy would prosper, helped by its neutrality among its French, British, Danish and American neighbors, and by the end of the 19th century its population would nearly surpass its motherland’s, which was also experiencing Great growth, mainly from its Flemish cities like Antwerp or Brussels.
But the two Netherlands would become at odds with each other’s, their culture growing in opposite direction, and the Netherlands would be isolated between the increasingly economically dominant Zollverein, France and Britain, furthermore their African ventures would be a disaster, both their colonies in central Africa and the Boer insurgencies, when various groups of Cape Dutch who had gone to the hinterlands to flee the despotic rule of the East India companies became opposed to the growth of the Dutch colony following discovery of riches. The decade long wars would be lost by the Netherlands and be he straw that broke the camel’s back, and when the 20th century came the two Netherlands wod break away from each other, splitting their colonial empire in half.
The shared experience of the Great War, which would hit both Europe and the North American continent and devastate both countries and kill millions across the world would leave their continent split and resentful of the other side, more isolated than ever the two Netherlands would renew economic ties with each other, carefully at first but eventually adopting shared elections, economical policies and currency, while including part of their former colonial empire in the economic and political union.
Today the two Netherlands are, together, disproportionally influential in the world, the ports of Rotterdam and New Amsterdam being the door of Europe and North America to most intercontinental trade, the original Netherlands is the first exporter of food in the world, helped by high productivity and extensive land reclamation projects, and has the best universities. Both Amsterdam and New Amsterdam host the largest stock exchange of Europe and America and the guilder is the second most traded currency in the world, New Amsterdam has given birth to some of the most innovating and largest technology and information companies and is a world renown culturally significant place.
For the last 400 years, the Netherlands and its former colony, the New Netherlands have had a tied history.
Initially a string of factories centered around New Amsterdam, the colonies would dramatically grow in size starting in the middle of the 17th century thanks to better managed land policies and influx of settlers from Dutch Brazil. Despite some conflicts with the English colonies they would grow alongside their northern english neighbours and New Amsterdam would quickly become one of the main port of North America. The 18th century saw consolidation of the factories into several provinces who, contrary to other colonies became directly administered by governors appointed by the stadtholder.
Dutch settlers were initially few, although many came during the 18th century who had lost their land to floods, as well as many Flemish. It’s relations with the mother country would dramatically change at the turn of the 19th century, when the Netherlands would be invaded by France, which would prompt many Dutch to flee to the Americas, When they finally got their freedom back, the colony wasn’t satisfied by its status and following years of negotiation, became an equal to the home country, having nearly half its population.
The Netherlands, which got part of the former Hapsburg Netherlands, would quickly industrialise at the start of the 19th century, at the same time so would it’s American counterpart, influenced by the British colonies in New England, the later would experience dramatic growth from immigration, the construction of the Noortrivier canal would link it with the Great Lakes and the heartland of America, and it would become a gate to the interior of America, millions of Italian, German or Irish migrants would arrive to the new world in the port of New Amsterdam, while many would leave to the west, the city’s economy would prosper, helped by its neutrality among its French, British, Danish and American neighbors, and by the end of the 19th century its population would nearly surpass its motherland’s, which was also experiencing Great growth, mainly from its Flemish cities like Antwerp or Brussels.
But the two Netherlands would become at odds with each other’s, their culture growing in opposite direction, and the Netherlands would be isolated between the increasingly economically dominant Zollverein, France and Britain, furthermore their African ventures would be a disaster, both their colonies in central Africa and the Boer insurgencies, when various groups of Cape Dutch who had gone to the hinterlands to flee the despotic rule of the East India companies became opposed to the growth of the Dutch colony following discovery of riches. The decade long wars would be lost by the Netherlands and be he straw that broke the camel’s back, and when the 20th century came the two Netherlands wod break away from each other, splitting their colonial empire in half.
The shared experience of the Great War, which would hit both Europe and the North American continent and devastate both countries and kill millions across the world would leave their continent split and resentful of the other side, more isolated than ever the two Netherlands would renew economic ties with each other, carefully at first but eventually adopting shared elections, economical policies and currency, while including part of their former colonial empire in the economic and political union.
Today the two Netherlands are, together, disproportionally influential in the world, the ports of Rotterdam and New Amsterdam being the door of Europe and North America to most intercontinental trade, the original Netherlands is the first exporter of food in the world, helped by high productivity and extensive land reclamation projects, and has the best universities. Both Amsterdam and New Amsterdam host the largest stock exchange of Europe and America and the guilder is the second most traded currency in the world, New Amsterdam has given birth to some of the most innovating and largest technology and information companies and is a world renown culturally significant place.
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Skallagrim
Banned
Awesome! The world this is set in seems very interesting, and although it clearly has its horrors, the Netherlands seem like a pretty great place to my Dutch eyes.
(It's funny though, that even in such an ATL, the Netherlands somehow cannot get their hands on French-Flanders. Historically Dutch-speaking Dunkirk and environs is somehow doomed to stay out of Dutch hands, and when the Netherlands do obtain near-by Francophone areas. It must be some sort of iron law of alternate history!)
Thanks!
Well Dunkerque had less history than Lille with France prior to the POD - somewhen in 1630 i guess. And i also didn't want to give the netherlands too much territory along the coast and more in the hinterland for aesthetical reasons to try to keep a symetry . But mostly it was because my basemap stopped before Dunkirk and i couldn't be bothered to stitch a part of another basemap to it...
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I would love to see a map of North America in this timeline. I might also like to see how the Dutch may influence Europe with colonies in North America and Brazil.
Only one faction remaining. Of course they are more like an alliance of several factions. Expect the Monarchist Coalition at a later date with British, Spanish and Portuguese *Commonwealths; the Empire in exile and the two similar but different empires of the New World. Also Japan. In all honesty it will probably be the American east coast states that make the list unnecessarily long.
Very nice, second the request for a map of North America, or at least a description of its constituent states north of Mexico (if such exists
)Is there a unified Boer South Africa, or several sort-of-Dutch speaking successor states to the colonial effort?
Very nice, second the request for a map of North America, or at least a description of its constituent states north of Mexico (if such exists
Is there a unified Boer South Africa, or several sort-of-Dutch speaking successor states to the colonial effort?
Well this is getting a bit more attention than I predicted. Frankly this map started more as a small map idea of what the Netherlands and New Netherlands would look like face to face, at first I wanted to keep the same scale but had to make the original NL slightly larger to make it fit without resorting to some horrible projections.
In such maps I just try to make broad guesses of what the world would look like, and it shows, in the description i try to be as generic as possible without going in depth. Still what I would think NA would look like: New England stays under British control, although there are some revolutionary movements that get quelled. The southern colonies do break away eventually though, with loyalists going into Florida which stays british, the American Union is initially about as wealthy as Brazil and is late to ban slavery but thanks to its stability, its links through the English language, it’s wealtheir neighbors and immigration (sponsored to “whiten” the country) it eventually manages to have a diversified and healthy economy and today is a very high income country, although with tense racial relations and poorer than its northern neighbors - think the level of Spain vs IRL Northeastern America.
New Sweden was given to Denmark at the treaty of Copenhagen in 1660, but never got too much danish, and stayed danish just by sheer luck, it did however get a lot of Norwegian migrants, especially since Denmark Norway only broke up in the early 20th century, Danish is the official language but Norwegian, Dutch and mainly English are widely spoken - note that the New Zealand Norwegian is quite closer - both in writing and vocabulary - to danish than IRL, to the the point where they are often considered the same Language, population is a few millions.
With a weaker English presence in America the French managed to stay there, a cadet orlean branch occupies the throne of this mainly French speaking Canada, it has more territory than IRL Canada around the Great Lakes, although they share them with (formerly) British Louisiana and a mixed Algonquian-white buffet state around Michigan/ Ohio. Louisiana stayed French, who slowly settled it but eventually got taken by the English around the late 18th-early19th century and today is divided (as part of a federation) between a French speaking lower Louisiana, an English, and to a smaller extent German and French speaking eastern Louisiana and mixes French-sioux languages upper-western Louisiana (int the Great Plains)
East and western Florida are united and part of a former British colony that turned out quite well.
The Boer states slowly united during the generation-long Boer wars, and eventually took over the whole South Africa - which also includes IRL Namibia and part of Angola. The resulting South Africa was rather un-democratic (and segregationist) and a good number of former more liberal cape Dutch, English/German settlers and cape coloured went to the New Netherlands in the first half of the 20th century to flee it.
That’s all I thought about, don’t hope For a map, it may happen but more likely than not won’t, I have more interesting ideas.. at least more interesting tonme.
I’m surprised this map I made in 3-4 h got as much attention as my last our fair country map that took me a good 30 or maybe even 40 h to make.
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Quebec is both the most Catholic and most secular part of North America, if not the entire western hemisphere. Mass attendance rates are as low as in western Europe, and public display of religious symbols is a perpetual topic in Quebec politics. Yet, there's a Crucifix hanging above the speaker's chair in the Assemblée Nationale, where the most socially promiscuous laws in the world have been passed. They argue it's a cultural and not religious symbol. They even have a term for this: "catho-laïcité".
Well, if it makes you feel better, I really did like that earlier map.
But that's the mystery of AH.com: a map you spend days on may get no comments at all, while some quick joke map may spark a multi-page thread derailment.
TheScottishMongol
Banned
AN: Following some feedback on my initial population estimates, I decided to rewrite some portions of this, namely the sections on technology. As it happens, a city of 100,000 people would bring along rail lines as well as more professionals in general, allowing for a better maintenance of technology levels.
Also, pizza chains. Go figure.
The modern town of Barah had about 100,000 people, and in addition to the town itself, the ISOTed zone included a number of oil wells, extensive farmland, and two major rail lines. The inhabitants of Barah, overwhelmingly Sudanese Arabs, had found themselves in the Chinese Warring States Period, and though they did not know it, it was the Year 250 BC.
While some initial peaceful contact with the downtime Chinese was established, it was soon understood that these Chinese were entirely non-Muslim. A local strongman named Ikhmin al-Din quickly asserted himself, riling up the populace with promises of an empire founded by the gun and the word of Allah. The Sudanese Conquests were rapid, built on automatic weapons and automobiles, and they routed every Chinese army they faced in the field. Wherever they went, the Sudanese forcibly converted the Chinese in droves, establishing Sharia Law, and in the process gaining a population base from which to draw new armies – necessary, as the scope of their conquests spread.
Eventually, the Sudanese began to hit their limits, as supply lines of oil ran too long, as trucks broke down, as guns and bullets became scarcer save for what village craftsmen could reproduce. The free areas of China coalesced around the Southern Chu.
Ikhmin al-Din died an Emperor, having brought Islam to the infidel land of China and made the Sudanese people from villagers into conquerors. His son Sinicized his name, becoming Sud Quan, and began overseeing the new Sud Dynasty. He laid the groundwork for what he hoped was a new conquest of the south, by fostering scholarship – not only the study of Sudanese Arabic in order to preserve the Quran, but to give China a true firearms industry and to properly exploit petroleum reserves. This was done with mixed success – refined oil was used for lighting, heating, and cooking, but the return of the automobile was not forthcoming. Instead, trains that ran on petroleum were developed, and tracks were laid across the countryside. Firearm technology was kept around the early 20th Century thanks to the work of Sudanese gunsmiths and mechanics and Chinese craftsmen and chemists.
However, this would not lead to the uncontested superiority of the Sud Dynasty. The technology soon spread to Southern China and even Korea, leading to stronger centralized governments forming there. Sudanese crops began to spread not only to China and Korea, but along the Silk Road to Bactria and points west - sugar, citrus fruits, sorghum, tobacco, sesame, and cotton. With them came guns, oil refining, and Muslim missionaries.
The new conquests never came. Sud Quan died of a fever, and was succeeded by his son Sud Din, who retreated into isolationism, frittering away the treasury on a new royal capital away from Barah, spending his time in the pleasure gardens there while corruption set in among the Sudanese court. Sud Din had half a dozen children who engaged in backstabbing and assassination, leaving only the paranoid Sud Mang to inherit when the third Emperor of the Sud Dynasty passed. Sud Mang found himself facing a bankrupt state, a corrupt court, and now infighting among the elites. He was essentially helpless against a popular rebellion led by a Chinese noble, who overthrew the Sudanese elites and set up the Qin, an ethnically Chinese - yet still Muslim - dynasty.
In 150 BC, 100 years after the Sudanese Conquests began, history is moving forward. China is split between a Muslim north and a traditional south, growing rapidly in population due to Sudanese crops, modern medicine, and irrigation practices, increasingly lit up by kerosene power and connected by rail.
The Sudanese people still exist as an ethnic minority in Qin China, making up ~6% of the populace, mostly craftsmen or mechanics. They are increasingly Sincized, largely Chinese-speakers, with Sudanese Arabic only in use as a clerical language for use in study of the Quran. Sudanese crops have revolutionized Chinese cuisine, and while pork is banned by the Quran, its role in Chinese cooking has led to heated debates and some theological gymnastics. There is even pizza, introduced through a chain shop in Barah and adopted by the Chinese, who have developed a number of different flavors (some quite unfamiliar to us).
Technology marches on. China is utilizing steam and diesel power to unintentionally start an Industrial Revolution. Currently, China's scholars are more concerned with reverse-engineering Sudanese technology, refining and improving what they have already invented, seeking to resurrect artillery and the internal combustion engine. However, already promising starts are being made in multiple fields, and perhaps in the next hundred years true scientific theories will be developed and debated.
Butterflies are starting to flap their wings in earnest. There are Muslim communities in Central Asia. A Bactrian king is hoping to use guns to reunify Alexander's Empire. A unified Korea is pushing into Japan and Manchuria. There will probably never be a Jesus in this world, let alone a Muhammed, but a Muslim pilgrim is making splashes in Jerusalem. Meanwhile, Qin China looks outward, hoping to spread Islam to Vietnam, India, and beyond...and open up markets to Chinese goods.
Also, pizza chains. Go figure.
The modern town of Barah had about 100,000 people, and in addition to the town itself, the ISOTed zone included a number of oil wells, extensive farmland, and two major rail lines. The inhabitants of Barah, overwhelmingly Sudanese Arabs, had found themselves in the Chinese Warring States Period, and though they did not know it, it was the Year 250 BC.
While some initial peaceful contact with the downtime Chinese was established, it was soon understood that these Chinese were entirely non-Muslim. A local strongman named Ikhmin al-Din quickly asserted himself, riling up the populace with promises of an empire founded by the gun and the word of Allah. The Sudanese Conquests were rapid, built on automatic weapons and automobiles, and they routed every Chinese army they faced in the field. Wherever they went, the Sudanese forcibly converted the Chinese in droves, establishing Sharia Law, and in the process gaining a population base from which to draw new armies – necessary, as the scope of their conquests spread.
Eventually, the Sudanese began to hit their limits, as supply lines of oil ran too long, as trucks broke down, as guns and bullets became scarcer save for what village craftsmen could reproduce. The free areas of China coalesced around the Southern Chu.
Ikhmin al-Din died an Emperor, having brought Islam to the infidel land of China and made the Sudanese people from villagers into conquerors. His son Sinicized his name, becoming Sud Quan, and began overseeing the new Sud Dynasty. He laid the groundwork for what he hoped was a new conquest of the south, by fostering scholarship – not only the study of Sudanese Arabic in order to preserve the Quran, but to give China a true firearms industry and to properly exploit petroleum reserves. This was done with mixed success – refined oil was used for lighting, heating, and cooking, but the return of the automobile was not forthcoming. Instead, trains that ran on petroleum were developed, and tracks were laid across the countryside. Firearm technology was kept around the early 20th Century thanks to the work of Sudanese gunsmiths and mechanics and Chinese craftsmen and chemists.
However, this would not lead to the uncontested superiority of the Sud Dynasty. The technology soon spread to Southern China and even Korea, leading to stronger centralized governments forming there. Sudanese crops began to spread not only to China and Korea, but along the Silk Road to Bactria and points west - sugar, citrus fruits, sorghum, tobacco, sesame, and cotton. With them came guns, oil refining, and Muslim missionaries.
The new conquests never came. Sud Quan died of a fever, and was succeeded by his son Sud Din, who retreated into isolationism, frittering away the treasury on a new royal capital away from Barah, spending his time in the pleasure gardens there while corruption set in among the Sudanese court. Sud Din had half a dozen children who engaged in backstabbing and assassination, leaving only the paranoid Sud Mang to inherit when the third Emperor of the Sud Dynasty passed. Sud Mang found himself facing a bankrupt state, a corrupt court, and now infighting among the elites. He was essentially helpless against a popular rebellion led by a Chinese noble, who overthrew the Sudanese elites and set up the Qin, an ethnically Chinese - yet still Muslim - dynasty.
In 150 BC, 100 years after the Sudanese Conquests began, history is moving forward. China is split between a Muslim north and a traditional south, growing rapidly in population due to Sudanese crops, modern medicine, and irrigation practices, increasingly lit up by kerosene power and connected by rail.
The Sudanese people still exist as an ethnic minority in Qin China, making up ~6% of the populace, mostly craftsmen or mechanics. They are increasingly Sincized, largely Chinese-speakers, with Sudanese Arabic only in use as a clerical language for use in study of the Quran. Sudanese crops have revolutionized Chinese cuisine, and while pork is banned by the Quran, its role in Chinese cooking has led to heated debates and some theological gymnastics. There is even pizza, introduced through a chain shop in Barah and adopted by the Chinese, who have developed a number of different flavors (some quite unfamiliar to us).
Technology marches on. China is utilizing steam and diesel power to unintentionally start an Industrial Revolution. Currently, China's scholars are more concerned with reverse-engineering Sudanese technology, refining and improving what they have already invented, seeking to resurrect artillery and the internal combustion engine. However, already promising starts are being made in multiple fields, and perhaps in the next hundred years true scientific theories will be developed and debated.
Butterflies are starting to flap their wings in earnest. There are Muslim communities in Central Asia. A Bactrian king is hoping to use guns to reunify Alexander's Empire. A unified Korea is pushing into Japan and Manchuria. There will probably never be a Jesus in this world, let alone a Muhammed, but a Muslim pilgrim is making splashes in Jerusalem. Meanwhile, Qin China looks outward, hoping to spread Islam to Vietnam, India, and beyond...and open up markets to Chinese goods.
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Fun scenario! But I think you need a bigger chunk of the Sudan: late Warring States China already had around 40 million people, and even if the Sud dynasty only rules about a third of that, there's no way you are going to get 15,000 people to multiply to 2 million in three generations. (40/3*0.16 = 2.133)
TheScottishMongol
Banned
Yeah, my math definitely doesn't check out on second glance. Increasing the size of the ISOT would definitely change some things - Sudan has its own munitions factories, and the range may include more people familiar enough with mechanics to reproduce internal combustion engines.
Alternatively, I could reduce the percentage of the population that are Sudanese by 150 BC. Ruling minorities have certainly been smaller than 15%.
Alternatively that could be be 15% Muslim, not 15% Sudanese.
Nice scenario btw.
TheScottishMongol
Banned
Thanks. I think at this point if I changed the population figures it would necessitate some rewrites, which will show me for being bad at math
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