Map Thread XVII
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damein fisher
Banned
Russian Civil War in Antarctica (1918)With the collapse of unified "White" control in mainland Russia, representatives from the 6 Oblasts of of Russian Antarctica come together in Novopetrograd in what would become known as the "Continental Assembly." These representatives express their support for the White Movement in the Russian Civil War and oppose communism both in Russia and Antarctica. The Oblasts request Allied support in Antarctica, allowing foreign troops to enter Russian Antarctica.
The base map was created by @Gian, and used with their permission.
The timeline this map is based in is Devon Moore's The Great White South, and can be found here at Alternative History Wikia.
None of the writing and graphics I post in relation to the Great White South are canonical, but do have his approval to be posted.
This is very interesting, could we get some more backstory on this?
A very early draft of something I've been brainstorming. Regarding S.M. Stirling's Emberverse books, one thing that's always bugged me is how the eastern half of the US is completely devoid of human life excluding Wisconsin, cannibals and Viking ripoffs. It felt somewhat unrealistic and a bit lazy, so I was going for at least a couple states in the East plus Canada, including a more successful and democratic US remmant state than Boise. What's here right now is the Commonwealth of Virginia. I intend to include more, and I was curious if there was anywhere else including this that has the potential to be a viable state. Any help with that would be appreciated along with all other feedback.
Thanks for the corrections. As far as I know, "federacio" is the more common term, but Kuniĝo has a nice ring to it...
Lusitania
Donor
His series was very lazy because it seemed only the British were smart enough to restablish civilization while the rest descended into barbarism.
In North America If nothing else Canadian Atlantic provinces would of been able to survive and rebuild.
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Sterling's weakness and his biases always kill his awesome setups.
"Americans will turn into cannibals or monarchists within a month, while the British Empire not only surives but expands globally! Now back to writing about lesbian sex and Wiccan Marty Stus!"
Ugh.
Here in Virginia alone, I can see three remnant states forming up fast. Northern Virginia and The Virginia Beach/Hampton Roads area are toast, and Richmond would be hairy, hut the rest?
I could see the Middle and Upper Pennensulas forming a coastal state - lots of farmers and watermen, and the Bay has lots of seafood.
While Richmond is hairy, the metro area has several military bases - Fort Lee, Fort Pickett and Fort Eustis - which I could see surviving the collapse, and eventually ruling Central Virginia, albiet maybe pulling out of Richmond and regrouping in Petersburg/Colonial Heights until things get more stable.
Meanwhile, the entire state west of Charlottesville, especially the I-81 corridor with its network of college towns and rich farmlands and ranchers, could be sitting pretty. Them, along with West Virginia, Kentucky and Tennesee could form the basis of a surviving US government slowly restoring order where it can. Especially if the President or Vice President and some of Congress can make it to the Greenbrier.
I also see all of them - in fact MOST American remnant states - remaining democratic.
This is a experiment inspired by this map (https://www.deviantart.com/thobewill/art/The-Centauri-Highway-738041408)
The World of Nyx
Nyx are a rogue Ice Giant lying 1,7 light years from the sun toward Barnard's Star, it was discovered in 2067 CE. When humanity expanded into the Oort Cloud it became one of the first colnisation target and human ships arrived around the rogue planet in 4511 CE. They had already discover that Nyx had several moons,but some surprising discovery was found. Nyx had five moons: Hypnos, Hecate, Morpheus, Asteria and Phantasos. Hypnos and Phantasos was both Earth size, while Hecate was Mars size, Morpheus and Asteria was the size of the Moon. The was likely more moon earlier, but Phantasos was a captured rogue planet, which had thrown any other moons out of the lunar system. The three inner moons was all frozen with no atmosphere, Hypnos had the least water and had some dry land, while Hecate and Morpheus was had a deep ocean, Astria are a twin to Titan. Phantasos on the other hand was unique, it was a cold version of Venus weith a very thick atmosphere and a sea level pressure of 80 bars. Together with its very active vulcanism, this result in a surface temperature of 9 degree celcius. This was a incredible discovery and while the planet was lifeless, humanity have introduced a modified biosphere on the planet, this biosphere depend mostly on chemosynthesis and kinosynthesis for energy.
Moons
Hypnos: While less interesting than Phantasos, Hypnos are the centre of Nyx, home to 1,8 billion people, it's the second biggest human settlement outside Sol. The population live underground in a vast number of cavern, which areas are slightly bigger than Australia.
Hecate and Morpheus: Both are lightly populated, only 12 and 7 million lives on each. They live between the water and surface in cities in the ice. Not a lot difference between the world. Both use O'Neils Cones to ensure 1G.
Astria: home to 171 million people, Astria are in many ways the industrial powerhouse of Nyx, the population mostly live in floating cone shaped cities.
Phantasos: Home to 981 million people these vast number of people dwell in floating cities, these are the more traditional flying cities in the cold upper atmosphere, and mostly they mine the atmosphere for raw materials.
Other signifcant sight in Nyx lunar system:
Nyx itself are home to vast gas extrating industries, and around 150.000 people dwell in its atmosphere. These people mostly live here withot family a few month until they can return with a fat pay check.
Patel Station home to the local lightway station, here Lightway vessels arrive several times a year.
Hanseniv Yard, the biggest shipyards outside Sol, their ships are exported to other settlements in the region between the Oort Cloud of Sol and Barnard.
The World of Nyx
Nyx are a rogue Ice Giant lying 1,7 light years from the sun toward Barnard's Star, it was discovered in 2067 CE. When humanity expanded into the Oort Cloud it became one of the first colnisation target and human ships arrived around the rogue planet in 4511 CE. They had already discover that Nyx had several moons,but some surprising discovery was found. Nyx had five moons: Hypnos, Hecate, Morpheus, Asteria and Phantasos. Hypnos and Phantasos was both Earth size, while Hecate was Mars size, Morpheus and Asteria was the size of the Moon. The was likely more moon earlier, but Phantasos was a captured rogue planet, which had thrown any other moons out of the lunar system. The three inner moons was all frozen with no atmosphere, Hypnos had the least water and had some dry land, while Hecate and Morpheus was had a deep ocean, Astria are a twin to Titan. Phantasos on the other hand was unique, it was a cold version of Venus weith a very thick atmosphere and a sea level pressure of 80 bars. Together with its very active vulcanism, this result in a surface temperature of 9 degree celcius. This was a incredible discovery and while the planet was lifeless, humanity have introduced a modified biosphere on the planet, this biosphere depend mostly on chemosynthesis and kinosynthesis for energy.
Moons
Hypnos: While less interesting than Phantasos, Hypnos are the centre of Nyx, home to 1,8 billion people, it's the second biggest human settlement outside Sol. The population live underground in a vast number of cavern, which areas are slightly bigger than Australia.
Hecate and Morpheus: Both are lightly populated, only 12 and 7 million lives on each. They live between the water and surface in cities in the ice. Not a lot difference between the world. Both use O'Neils Cones to ensure 1G.
Astria: home to 171 million people, Astria are in many ways the industrial powerhouse of Nyx, the population mostly live in floating cone shaped cities.
Phantasos: Home to 981 million people these vast number of people dwell in floating cities, these are the more traditional flying cities in the cold upper atmosphere, and mostly they mine the atmosphere for raw materials.
Other signifcant sight in Nyx lunar system:
Nyx itself are home to vast gas extrating industries, and around 150.000 people dwell in its atmosphere. These people mostly live here withot family a few month until they can return with a fat pay check.
Patel Station home to the local lightway station, here Lightway vessels arrive several times a year.
Hanseniv Yard, the biggest shipyards outside Sol, their ships are exported to other settlements in the region between the Oort Cloud of Sol and Barnard.
Shit, Sterling had Americans crowning Kings and becoming medieval peasants within 5 years.
Even Democracy in name only is more realistic than that.
America was born in a world without electricity and combustion engines. Shit will suck for a decade or two, but I think the US would either survive in one form or another or reform in a generation or two.
Far more easily than densely populated Europe and Asia anyway.
In Mountains I assumed that virtually everywhere was a Democracy-in-name-only, with neo-feudalism and neo-monarchism functioning within modern frameworks like hereditary dictatorship until the gradual reassertion of movement for true democracy.
Well, it's plausible that only areas with a high arable land/population ratio are going to survive: without modern tech, the massive coastal urban centers are simply not going to be able to be fed. Although I think he rather overestimates how far those millions are going to be able to get on foot (or, at best, on bicycle) without food or adequate supplies of water (he's waaay too fond of cannibal or at least starving hordes), and they simply aren't going to reach much of the interior south and the northern NY/New England area to go all locusty. And once all the dying is done, the east is simply much better suited for farming without technology-driven artificial irrigation than much of the west, and would be able to support rather higher population density on a non-industrial [1] tech base.
Still, a lot of the NE-Great Lakes area is going to die out (just look at this little topo-style population density map)
[1] I say non-industrial rather than pre-industrial, since we've learned rather a lot since 1800 which could be adapted to a no-artificial-power scenario.
I loved Mountains... but I still think in most cases, America would remain democratic, but politics would be back to where it was in the 1800s - where local and state politics trumped all, and very little that goes on at the national level has an impact.
TheScottishMongol
Banned
Yeah, if people in Virginia survive it'll be in the backwoods western part of the state. Which, I think Stirling mentions survivors in the Appalachians, they just don't end up playing a role in continental politics like the Great Plains or those Vikings in Maine.
Anyway, I don't particularly care about the Emberverse enough anymore to complain about its plausibility, except to say that Stirling wanked what he thought was interesting and we'd all do the same in his place. All my real complaints with the series are about the actual writing, not the worldbuilding.
Anyway, I don't particularly care about the Emberverse enough anymore to complain about its plausibility, except to say that Stirling wanked what he thought was interesting and we'd all do the same in his place. All my real complaints with the series are about the actual writing, not the worldbuilding.
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Agreed, especially the south since most of it has a lower population to arable land ratio, therefore meaning more of the people already there will be fed compared to more northern states.Well, it's plausible that only areas with a high arable land/population ratio are going to survive: without modern tech, the massive coastal urban centers are simply not going to be able to be fed. Although I think he rather overestimates how far those millions are going to be able to get on foot (or, at best, on bicycle) without food or adequate supplies of water (he's waaay too fond of cannibal or at least starving hordes), and they simply aren't going to reach much of the interior south and the northern NY/New England area to go all locusty. And once all the dying is done, the east is simply much better suited for farming without technology-driven artificial irrigation than much of the west, and would be able to support rather higher population density on a non-industrial [1] tech base.
Still, a lot of the NE-Great Lakes area is going to die out (just look at this little topo-style population density map)
[1] I say non-industrial rather than pre-industrial, since we've learned rather a lot since 1800 which could be adapted to a no-artificial-power scenario.
A missed opportunity: I rather fancy the notion of an Appalachian 'Switzerland' arising from the ashes.
The executive power would be enormously influential, efficiency and safety would be prized over liberty more or less.
Assuming you are able to maintain order long enough to have settlements, unless you have a Washington-like figure who steps down rather fast, there will likely be only one dominant party.
People would idolize democracy, however as generations pass, what exactly “democracy” is would be rather vague over time.
Sterling is not far off that raider tribes would likely be pretty common, especially the children of the original survivors. With no real written history (Survival > Writing down stuff) social norms would shift.
The average person has no idea how to operate a farm, and desperate for survival, would resort to attacking more well off settlements in order to survive.
This means that a strong defense force would have to exist to fend off from attacks, and people would idolize these defenders.
This is not to mention the drastic issues of communication time. The most common way to travel between settlements would be via horse or on foot. And most people don’t know how to ride a horse. Large states as result would be very slow to form, allowing for de-facto dictators to arise quite easily.
Of course any surviving US military contingent would declare martial law over their region, and even though the initial plan would be to restore democracy once able, power corrupts, especially to people who believe tyranny is the only way to save their loved ones and the people they’re trying to protect.
People don't feel safe when other people try to upset the existing order in times of crisis, particularly when they're told it's for their own good. There is a centuries long tradition of democracy, people tie their entire identities to their vote. Suddenly being told that you can't vote anymore or learning that your vote has been stolen is a good way to incite reactionary violence against the new authoritarian regime trying to establish itself. I don't see why the executive power would be more influential than it was when electricity existed; it might become a more frenzied actor but more than anything, things are likely to decentralize as communication infrastructure collapses and people turn to their immediate communities for safety and security. Not every social dynamic can be broken down into "freedom vs. security", the relationship between neighborhoods, cities, states, the federal government, and other, non-civil sources of authority is more complex than that.
We have written history everywhere. You can find a library with ease in a town of 10,000 people. Education would suffer a blow but people generally enjoy learning.
Regardless, I don't see how more or less education necessarily means raider tribes being common. That to me seems like it would depend more on scarcity of food, ability of authorities to respond to such things, and access to lawless, livable space to retreat to. Being a raider to live is a pretty shitty lifestyle that doesn't generally appeal to many people. If you can survive by farming or by being part of a subsistence network, then most people are going to try for that. True, most people don't know how to farm but a lot of people do. Word would get around and people would figure things out. I would be very surprised if the reason most people chose a life of piracy historically was "no one ever taught me how to farm so what else was I gonna do".
Why would people idolize law enforcement any more than they would farmers? Kids would, maybe, but again I don't really see why the position toward law enforcement would necessarily be anything more than "I appreciate you doing your job and will continue to appreciate you as long as you continue doing your job." People are pretty used to freedom and attempts to establish the rigid, hierarchical, authoritarian state that you seem to think would likely come about would result in pushback, primarily for the same reasons it would and does generate pushback today, but also because the disappearance of the types of technology that can make oppression more sustainable will make it harder to impose and establish such an order.
Riding a horse isn't that hard. It's hard to get really good at, but is pretty straightforward if you just need to saunter to the next town over. In any case, there's precedent for democracy before the advent of trains and automobiles. This would probably lead to decentralization, yes, but again I don't exactly see why this has to mean dictators any more than it did in the early 19th century, unless slavery is making a comeback. But it's not and it wouldn't so I still have trouble seeing where this would-be dictator derives their authority from and why these would-be peasants see a reason to respect such authority, particularly if it costs them their freedom and is as brutal a dictatorship as Russia's.
Insofar as the military goes, I have sufficient faith in the US military that military dictatorship would not become the norm, particularly without access to weaponry that they're used to and having been trained to provide humanitarian aid in crisis situations and having sworn to protect and uphold the constitution while in uniform. And I usually don't give the military the benefit of the doubt. But these are Americans interacting with other Americans here, there's reason to doubt that everything would turn to Machiavellian horror wherever a US military base exists. Could someone who's served in the armed forces provide their input here? Whether I'm entirely right or entirely wrong, I'm curious to know how folks who have been in the military think the military would react to such an event.
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