Map Thread XIX

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by water123, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. Valdore Javorsky That Guy with the "Rise of the Night" magic TL

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Location:
    Kreishauptmannschaft Zwickau, Königreich Sachsen
    I mean, if it were describing German (or any other non-native colonial overlord language like e.g. Dutch, Portugese or English for that matter) as a secondary language, You/I could let that education argument pass, but maternal language in those numbers? That's either a case of very high cultural subjugation or a case of this one very haram act that may not be named and involves resettlement.
    If you had intended it as a dystopian timeline, then sure, I guess... But it didn't seem like that. What you're implying is quite the hot subject and we already got a bunch of members banned over that
     
  2. NiGHTS Falling from hell

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Location:
    Sankt Zulieferer, Marsreich
    It's not dystopian, but it's not utopian either. The process to get here wasn't sunshine and rainbows and it's still a subject of buzz in the timeline that will lead to conflict down the road. It's meant to be like if Indonesia ended up like parts of Latin America, particularly Mexico in which something like less than 7% of the population only speaks an indigenous language, after hundreds of years of subjugation by the governments of New Spain/Mexico, even though most of the population has indigenous ancestry. I didn't intend it as a good thing and I agree with the description that it's cultural genocide,and I don't approve of it(cultural genocide). I didn't think people would get so overactive about this.
     
    Ferd42, Ciniad, FleetMac and 3 others like this.
  3. NiGHTS Falling from hell

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Location:
    Sankt Zulieferer, Marsreich
    Anyways, I have completed the internal provincial borders of Mexico in my timeline. In this timeline, Mexico was founded in 1721. At that time, the Empress of Spain decided to split the Viceroyalties among her children, so that they could from colonies into allied nations. Slavery had already been abolished throughout the Spanish Empire in the late 1600s, and indigenous people were given equal rights to that of a Spaniard. Everyone still has to speak Spanish though, so they don't have rights to their own languages, but neither do Catalans or Portuguese, or Basques, etc. (TTL's Spain is similar to OTL France in that way. It actually became Spain a century earlier.) Settlement and higher domestic population growth has caused Mexico to grow at a faster and earlier rate than OTL. Meanwhile, the USA has been butterflied away, though it still has ATL counterparts nearby. More butterflies led to French territory in North America going to Mexico, and the alt USA/Canada counterpart.
    Provinces of Mexico.png
    Mexico is still pretty heavily of indigenous ancestry thanks to their physical oppression ending at an earlier date and allowing some recovery to occur, in addition to immigration from Central America. However, it has lost much of its native heritage and tends to not celebrate native culture as much as OTL. That's something that's slowly changing as time goes by, but it's still a sore subject. For some intellectuals, Mexico is rediscovering it's old cultures, after decades of celebrating every culture(TTL's Mexico is super diverse in terms of immigrant ancestry) but that of its indigenous. For others, they see Mexico as essentially starting to make a mockery of indigenous culture by wearing it like a costume and putting a Mesoamerican aesthetic on things, while still essentially being a Eurocentric state. Even Hawaii has lost much of its indigenous culture in the name of having everyone be "Mexican", which has historically often been described as being a Mestizo nation, but which in reality put more importance on Spanish culture, by how it was the Spanish language that was seen as being the language for everyone to learn. Mexico is super wealthy in this timeline(and not just those of fair skin), so these questions are a thing that many can afford to seriously engage in. It is also a question that many of the other Hispanic Kingdoms engage in as well.

    At least, Eurocentric beauty trends are no longer as popular, as there's been more appreciation shown for those who completely have indigenous, Asian, and African features. Even the royal family has Asian and Indigenous features.

    Indeed, a large amount of Mexico has Asian ancestry thanks to Asian immigration from the 1800s on wards, particularly from China, among other areas. And there is a great love and celebration of this ancestry and the culture that comes with it. In fact, one of the more notable rulers of Mexico was called Haruko in honor of her father's paternal culture. Which makes opposing the actions of China in TTL rather difficult. This is because China(and the United Nations) seek to free Asia and Africa from colonial powers, which would include the Maribelas (otl Phillipines). China already took Formosa from the Maribelas and is funding the activity of terrorists throughout Asia and Africa. Mexicans don't mind the freeing of Africa and most Asia, but the Mexican military has the Maribelas in a NATO type alliance and Mexican bases/troops are stationed throughout those islands. Which leads to the question of indigenous culture and its role in Mexican society. More ultimately, the question of the morality of colonialism, which is at the heart of the matter, has now been turned into a geopolitical one.

    I guess, you could say that the question that is on the minds of many Mexicans in TTL, is if they're existence is a good thing, no matter how more prosperous it is in TTL. A close equivalent in OTL, would be Americans asking if they're existence is a good thing, even though it came through the genocide of the indigenous. Which in Mexico's case, is a debate that is more heated, since the debate is not about a long gone people, but about their ancestors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  4. CountofDooku Emperor of Amra

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    Location:
    Empire of Amra
    Such a sweet looking Mexico needs Central America too.
     
    Soverihn, Gokbay and NiGHTS like this.
  5. NiGHTS Falling from hell

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Location:
    Sankt Zulieferer, Marsreich
    That's independent Kingdom allied to Mexico, in the same type of agreement that exists with the Maribelas. And thanks for the compliment. It's going to be a bit of a pain to import the lines borders to my main map, but it will be worth it for compliments like yours.
     
    CountofDooku likes this.
  6. Valdore Javorsky That Guy with the "Rise of the Night" magic TL

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Location:
    Kreishauptmannschaft Zwickau, Königreich Sachsen
    I assumed so.
    It's just that we had a bunch of trolls posting wanked/ethnic cleansing maps of their native countries (often Russia, but there are other examples) and claiming them to be "good timelines" or even worse, "my ideal world/timelines" and sometimes even going full political as to why. So that's why some tend to overreact very quickly.


    As for me personally, I made a similar mistake in relation to (also German) language areas/percentages roughly two years ago where I also did some shenanigans with second and first languages in culture, education and daily use, where it appeared to many people that I was indicating a genocide or cultural subjugation,
    even though I had only intended to show a change to increased use of German as a secondary, auxiliary language.

    I basically failed to convey the message I intended and essentially drew a map of ethnic expansionism - The map itself was poorly executed too and I and my project still up to this day get sometimes shamed for it (might also have to do with the fact that I haven't posted much more about the TL yet - I only want to return with it once I have a proper lore basis and appearance I'm satisified with),
    which is why I'm trying to prevent other people to experience similar unpleasant situations.
     
    Ferd42, Miner, rzheng and 5 others like this.
  7. MuricanTauri1776 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2016
    Thank you.
     
  8. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    The Back of the Car
    You need to allow the Strobe setting for the map.
     
  9. LouisTheGreyFox The Hyperactive Furry Historian

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Location:
    British Dominion of New Jersey
    Every day we stray further from God...
     
  10. water123 The Biggest Normie on this Website

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Location:
    Space
    @NiGHTS
    I didn't mean to insinuate that you were racist or anything. It's just that usually on tons of other sites having a region start speaking German is usually racist wish fulfilment and I wanted to point that out. Not to mention there is a school of thought on here rn devoted to removing concepts like "Terra incognita" and other aspects of Western dominated colonialism that have seeped into our cartography. For example, for years colonization of the Americas simply was based on the model of "hardworking Europeans show up in a magically empty place and start throwing society together in this new completely empty area" that is unfortunately common in the American School System with the occasional massive Incan empire that is 1,000 miles long and 1 inch deep. Yet recently cartographic trends have changed to be more inclusive of Native American trends. There is at least an assumption that the Native Americans went *somewhere* as opposed to magically disappearing. This is put up to eleven in areas like India or Indonesia where powerful nations ruled over millions of people (in fact, the kingdom of Mysore had better military tech than the English but didn't have the English numbers or navy) and thus sweeping demographic changes imply nasty things happened to get there. Not to mention the "white settler colony" model, which only occured in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and [arguably] South Africa is often exported to other parts of the world where it would make no sense such as India or densely populated places in Africa. This is usually non-maliced because this is the only kind of colonization taught in a lot of schools and is therefore assumed to be the norm. Yet, by perpetuating this one continues to buy into both the "Invisible Indian" stereotype and also other stereotypes of this nature. Ultimately, I think everyone ends up making a map of ethnic expansion some time early in their mapping careers (pan over to all the giga-Byzantiums, super Americas, etc.) so you aren't like committing some heinous and unheard of thing. Just make sure to remember that the Native residents of an area essentially always have a culture as vibrant and complete as any European one.

    Tl;Dr: you're good, no one is accusing you of anything, just make sure to include the original inhabitants of an area in your lorebuilding and discussion in a realistic way. If a large non-European population started speaking German, describe why and how that happened.
     
    Miner, rzheng, Gokbay and 3 others like this.
  11. Bob Hope rarely online

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2016
    Location:
    Portsmouth UK
    Were any of you aware that Hitler had a choice in 1937 between China and Japan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_(1926–1941)

    Hitler's Germany inherited agreements with China whereby Germany received much needed raw materials, in return, China received economic and military development as well as hard currency.


    What if Hitler had chosen China over Japan?

    Would Japan have joined the Allies or gone it alone?

    Would Japan, having joined the Allies, have occupied French Indochina and Dutch Indonesia thus gaining many of the raw materials it needed?

    Would Japan, having joined the Allies or not, still attack Pearl Harbour?

    Would America ally with Germany as a result?


    Other consequences and questions;

    Availability of 50-60,000 troops and materiel committed in OTL to Singapore, presumably mainly in the UK and North Africa.

    More Commonwealth troops available for transport to North Africa, the Middle East or possibly a larger response to the invasion of Greece.

    With overwhelming numbers in North Africa where would Rommel see action and would he be as effective?

    The importance of Malta would be lessened with less loss of ships which, along with those freed up from Singapore, could be committed against the American fleet possibly in conjunction with the Japanese.

    Would the troops freed up be needed in a land war in Canada and would the fleet need to be deployed to protect convoys taking troops TO Canada or opening a second front in New Orleans/ Carolina-Georgia/ the Potomac?


    Is this a war the UK and Commonwealth could win or are we talking a negotiated peace?
     
  12. XTrapnel Kentish Man, NOT Man of Kent

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2018
    The Ousefleet Free State: its rise and fall

    Grid reference SE830220 on Ordnance Survey Map 112 (covering a series of fields just south of Ousefleet, a small village in Lincolnshire), gained brief notoriety in 2003 as the least interesting square kilometer, cartographically speaking, in the entire UK. Just fifteen years later, however, it was to bear witness to the meteoric rise and fall of the Ousefleet Free State, the brainchild of a local farmer pushed over the edge by one business rates raise too many.

    A map and timeline of the events is set out below.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. xmoose Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2016
    Oh sorry, my mistake, I was counting with "ability to speak german" or something like that
     
    Valdore Javorsky likes this.
  14. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    OTL Hitler's choice of Japan over China was absolutely rational. Japan could German ally unlike OTL China, so PoD that result is German-Chinese Axis in WW2 was before 1937 and related with Chinese internal politics

    If Japan forced to defense against China then they can't occupied of SE Asia. Maximum that Japan can did is operation against Vichy and Chinese intervention if France surrendered ITTL

    IOTL USA thought that Germany is bigger threat than Japan


    PS. If China didn't lost Republican age (1911-1940) and developed as like PRC in 1950-1975 then they had GDP equal American and industrial production equal Soviet in 1940
     
    Bob Hope likes this.
  15. Blacklister3000 Libertarian of sorts

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    @B_Munro how is the wanked nations compilation going?
     
  16. Philosopher Jaden Smith Unknown member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Yet another example of the evils of neo-imperialism. We cannot continue to let large military powers continue bullying their neighbors into submission. #FreeOusefleet
     
  17. XTrapnel Kentish Man, NOT Man of Kent

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2018

    I assume the arrest would go down like a more Northern version of this.

     
  18. Wolfram Fair to middlin'

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Location:
    University of Houston, Houston, Texas
    [​IMG]
    This is a transit map of one possible outcome of Kathy Whitmire's plans to build a Houston monorail, which were frustrated by the oil glut of the 1980s and finally ended when she lost re-election in 1991. Here, a less severe oil glut means that she gets to build the red and blue lines in the mid-'80s, followed by lines to both airports in the '90s.
     
    Miner, UrbanNight, Capricus and 8 others like this.
  19. Eparkhos_Ton_Trapezous Dux Theodoros ton Khaldeia

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2019
    Location:
    Trapezous, Duxate ton Khaldeia
    Lanneseveksia in 758 AM

    [​IMG]

    This clusterf*ck of a map is my attempt to show Bronze Age geopolitics. It hurts me just as badly as it does you.


    The map above shows the geopolitical situation in Lanneseveksia in 758 AM, the year of the birth of the first Barkanid Emperor. The three different color groups (Brown, Orange and Blue) represent states composed of the three primary ethnic groups (Tigashar, Kumpita and Ierenib). The shaded sections of the ocean are the migrating grounds of the Kumpita, who are Sea Nomads. The non-colored sections inclosed by borders represent tributary tribes, and the shaded sections in those represent dispusted tributaries.

    I'll answer of the myriad questions.​
     
    Miner, theev, Louyan and 15 others like this.
  20. Minchandre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2009
    Location:
    The Garden State
    I think we can just close the thread now. No map will ever top this.