Map Thread XIX

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1. Is this linked to any map scale thing (like worlda, qbam, etc)

i think i found the base in some xkbam thread? i don't think i have the basemap anymore since i started making this map like 3 weeks ago and i've been editing over it since

2. can we get a version with like the native borders / with state borders (if it was based to a map, I could do the last bit) as like a base for NA timelines?

no, as pre-Columbian NA cultures had an extremely different concept of sovereignty than Europe and borders didn't really exist in the same way as our "modern" interpretations of society and sovereignty. even ethnic definitions during this time were fairly nebulous; villages were often extremely multicultural, nearby groups would live in the same village and etc.
i've been explicitly trying to avoid that kind of Eurocentric bias in this TL's NA, but there's always going to be some in my mind b/c A. i was born and raised in 21st century New York and not say, 15th century Tenochtitlan, and B. society over a millennium ago can sometimes function incomprehensibly differently than our modern world, so it's hard to reconcile that with the past.
i also subscribe to the criticism of maps like qbam, mbam, worlda that (while fun to make) they fail to properly represent non-modern, Western conceptions of sovereignty but that's a debate for another thread
Definitely like this (especially the alternately-transliterated Hawaiian Islands), although since the "Ross" in Fort Ross just comes from Pоссия, I suspect a Russian North America would choose a different name.
I've always had a huge problem with naming the Hawaiian Islands the "Sandwich Islands." Just like Rhodesia did, you're taking a place with millennias of rich culture and home to a huge number of people, and slapping them under the name of a European explorer or other such figure (in this case, the Earl of Sandwich) who didn't do anything but make life hell for the natives. It bothered me all throughout reading Turtledove's TL-191 series, and it still bothers me now.

Plus, what do you call the people living there? Sandwichers? Sandwichians? Sandwiches? Hawaii's just a better name all around.
Uhhh, do you realise that the 3 millions of Afrikaners today are descendant of roughly 20,000 Dutch speaking whites who lived there when the brits took the colony over?

Alright admittedly, the population in the Theresian colony will be significantly more urban than Boers, so will have a lower growth, however the large number of migrants and the fact that it’s going to be the main valve for emigration the Austrian empire means it’s likely to have a lot of settlers, many will go back once the rush is over, but more than enough will stay, in the end an european descended population comparable to our Australia is more than plausible, considering the similar timeframes.

South Africa is mostly tropical diseases free, except in Natal, the climate is very healthy for extensive farming, IRL the inability of the Khoisan to fight back first allowed the Dutch to expend within the cape colony, and then the Mfecane which depopulated the free state/Transvaal, there, it’s their sheer number (several times larger than the Boers were at the time, gold rush attracted a LOT of people in these times), along with actually being supported by Austrian colonial forces for peacekeeping, Austrians who wanted to make sure they control their only colony.

There’s a reason South Africa has been white settled IRL, there is a reason why it’s often used in AH as a Foreign entryway for settler colonialism, it’s because it disease free, large, at a strategical location, and has lots of land adapted to European agricultural package.

I just may be stuck on that 60 plus million thing: nowhere, after all, do you actually say what the percent of racially white people is? I note you mentioned Australia as a comparison. With 24-odd million people, you could get there by around quadrupling the white population of South Africa without the out-migration of recent years, which to some extent pushes this narrowly back into the plausible for me. However, that would make more than half the population African - which doesn't entirely jive with the language map. So, let's say that your country is less than half white, but linguistically more than half German? I could buy that...
Here is an alternative map of the regions of France; the old regions are maintained, except the Pays-de-la-Loire which are shared between the Center region, Poitou-Charentes and Loire-Atlantique which is attached to Brittany. The Seine-et-Oise never burst, Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Picardie form a single region, as like as Normandy, and Corsica remains a single department.

Here's one more map for the RDNA-verse! Only now, is for Gran Patagonia, the other leading republican power among the Free Nations. Though if Brazil is the murkier, less successful mirror of New Austria, then the Gran Patagonians, though just as successful as the American Federation, are also a murkier mirror, as may become evident. The DeviantArt version can be found here.

A distant remake of the Gran Patagonia map-profile from back in 2011, this one essentially overhauls and retcons much of what had made for it at that time. If anything, just about the only thing that's unchanged is the flag, which has held up rather well. That being said, it's been great being able to refine and expound on this part of the setting, while also further highlighting just how, in invoking the actual Cold War, toxic a seemingly indefinite standoff against the "Red Menace" could do.

And just to be on the safe side, this is a work of fiction. While the map itself is framed as something from within the setting (including references to politically incorrect terms in our reality), this is not meant to be an ideological or propagandizing work.

At any rate, I hope you all enjoy this piece. Libertad o Muerte!


A Brief History of Gran Patagonia.

The territories that comprise the Sovereign Federated Republic of Gran Patagonia can trace their origins to the 16th Century. Despite economic troubles and the formal relinquishing of what became New Austria in 1554, the Kingdom of Spain still retained control over its remaining budding colonies. This was particularly true in South America, where missionaries, conquistadors and settlers continued streaming into the New World, as well as colonists displaced by the Habsburgs, enticed by the Spanish Crown's efforts. By 1590, when the last remnants of the so-called Incan Empire were crushed, these increasingly pacified lands were organized into the Viceroyalties of Nueva Granada and Peru. Among the myriad Governorates that were brought under the latter's jurisdiction was that of Rio de la Plata, based from the burgeoning port of Buenos Aires (founded as a permanent city in 1576). Over the course of decades, the region's clout as a trading hub and crucial link to the homeland grew, contributing to its ascension as a Viceroyalty in its own right in 1685.

While Spanish rule remained firm, the increasingly overbearing grip of distant Madrid did little to ease tensions. Though present across the colonies and varied depending on the Viceroyalty, these were particularly evident in Rio de la Plata, by then known more as either "Argentina" or "Patagonia" by the locals, as calls for greater self-rule and reform were met with either indifference or ever more severe reprisals. By the 18th Century, these only worsened and came to include various grievances, ranging from slavery and taxes to notions of outright independence. That these paralleled the Thirteen Colonies much further north proved to be no coincidence, especially as republican ideas spread through illicit exchanges between the two colonial groups. A botched attempt to quell a group of disgruntled sailors and farmers would prove to be the final straw, sparking the Patagonian Rebellion in 1797, which in turn spurred the wars of independence across South America. From the ensuing chaos rose figures such as Francisco de San Martín, who alongside the likes of José Gervasio Artigas and Mariano Moreno, convened a Cortes Generales (an equivalent of Congress) separate from that of the old homeland in Buenos Aires. As bickering among Argentine rebels risked tearing the momentum apart, however, something had to be done. Thus, when victory over the remaining royalists seemed imminent, that the 1806 Unity Accord was signed with San Martín's endorsement, formally establishing what was at that time known as the Federated Republic of Argentina.

The initial years following the signing of the Unity Accord and subsequent surrender of the remaining Spanish garrisons were tumultuous for the fledgling nation, but the triumphant Libertadores (not unlike the "Founding Fathers" of the American Federation) were tenacious in seeing that the dream of "Latin Republicanism" wasn't in vain. The efforts to fend off raids by Native Indian tribes (called Indios in the vernacular), which persisted from the colonial period, encouraged a gradual expansion and consolidation of the frontiers as more settlers crossed the Atlantic. Yet even as the Argentine Provinces were becoming able to stand on their own, tensions flared with other revolutionaries (including Simon Bolivar) and the emergent Latin Alliance states, on top of an emerging rivalry with the Brazilians, who remained loyal to Portugal. The one exception were the Chileans, who stayed a firm ally amidst the power struggles among the now-independent colonies. It was the fateful decision, however, in 1830 to support deposed leader José Miguel Carrera and his supporters following a royalist coup that marked a shift in the the Federated Republic's evolution. Following a successful campaign two years later, it was seen as preferable for Chile to be integrated as a federal protectorate, allowed to otherwise run its own affairs. A similar outcome came from the War of Paraguayan Aggression in 1845-47. Fought in support of republican supporters against an autocratic regime with utopian aspirations, what was left of the populace (by then having mixed with the Guarani) welcomed integration. Then, mirroring America's "Continental Destiny," throngs of soldiers and pioneers pushed southward towards the Strait of Magellan. Though not without conflict, as notoriously with the Mapuche tribes (which were eventually granted relative autonomy in the Province of Nehuenken), it also opened new opportunities for those willing to take the risks.

By the late 19th Century, the Federated Republic had become an emergent power in the region, attracting settlers not only from Spain but also from other parts of Europe, including Italians and even some Germans. Indeed, relations with the old homeland itself had improved significantly, due to a combination of trade, mutual respect and a series of liberalizing reforms by the Spanish Crown. At the same time, with everything south of the old Rio de la Plata all under one flag, it became more popular for locals (whether in or outside the Argentine Provinces) to refer to their lands as Gran Patagonia, which even reached official documents by 1890. This also coincided, however, with growing debate over how to address the increasingly intertwined "Free States," which were effectively subordinate to Argentina. These concerns didn't stop the flow of people and wealth, let alone its ascension as America's Latin equal. That was, until the Terror happened. Although the country tried initially to simply maintain a state of constant readiness, that changed rapidly as news spread of just how severe that "Old World problem" truly was. Volunteers and eventually, whole divisions were being deployed to Cape Verde and the Spanish Canary Islands (or Islas Canarias Españolas) to help in holding the line against the Collectivists in the Iberian Peninsula. This ultimately failed, with the Gran Patagonians forced to instead defend the last remaining refugee vessels from a dying Spain. This would leave a lasting stain on the public consciousness.

In 1929, the current Constitution was enacted, from which the Sovereign Federated Republic of Gran Patagonia takes its official name. More than codifying reforms (such as granting the now "Federal Constituent States" formal equality and autonomy from Buenos Aires), however, this also proclaimed the nation as the legitimate successor to Spain's fallen heritage and culture. These became even more poignant with the ongoing collapse of the Latin Alliance by then through Collectivist subversion, which led to Upper Peru being made a protectorate in 1932 and later integrated. Yet while its drive to fend off the "Red Menace" has inspired a similar if rather murkier sense of paranoia among the public to the Americans, as seen with their response to the 1992 Belem Incident in Portuguese Brazil, few can deny their commitment to democracy or their position as one of the leading republican powers of the Free World.

Gran Patagonia Today.

The Sovereign Federated Republic of Gran Patagonia, known alternatively as Gran Patagonia or Greater Argentina, is among the leading nations of the Free World situated in the lower half of South America. Currently under the term of President Jose Manuel Salazar y Ferrer, it continues to hold true to the ideals cherished by the Libertadores. Alongside the American Federation, it forms a kind of axis of republican liberty straddling both ends of the New World. It goes without saying that its people have much to offer.

The "Latin Republicanism" upheld by the Gran Patagonians is a fascinating blend of various influences, including from the American Founding Fathers, on top of its deep Spanish inheritance. The country is formally comprised of 20 Argentine Provinces (some of which could be traced back to the Viceroyalty of Rio de la Plata), as well as a number of Federal Constituent States and Territories, largely founded by settlers and immigrants over the centuries. Still known colloquially as "Free States" (particularly those in South America), they notably enjoy significant liberties and largely run their own affairs, complete with their own internal governments, though the Argentine Provinces remain "first among equals." The Cortes Generales Federal in Buenos Aires serves as the legislature (split between the Senate and Chamber of Deputies), which as with the American Federation, is counterbalanced by the executive and judiciary. The President, Vice-President and Senators are elected every four years by direct popular voting, though other positions tend to have more varied means. The growing presence of Revivalists in recent years, however (notably the rise of the Partido Restitución Español or "Spanish Restoration Party"), has shaken the long-time dominance of the Partido Nacional Demócrata ("National Democrats") and Unión Federal Renovador ("Coalition for Liberty") in the political scene. Nonetheless, the system has been particular resilient over its generations-long evolution. Few would doubt that their commitment to equality, liberty or other republican virtues, whatever the cost, is any less today than in the time of San Martín.

Its economic and industrial clout are also noteworthy. Through a blend of trade, a work ethic based on individual merit, a bounty of natural resources, and a mindset that promotes dedication as well as ingenuity, Gran Patagonia has risen to new heights among the Free Nations. From the thriving ports and elegant boulevards of Buenos Aires itself to the Chilean wineries near Santiago, from the Gaucho-tended plains of La Pampa and fisheries of Islas Malvinas to the industrial complexes of Tucumán, there's no lacking in specialties. Which isn't to ignore its military contributions, being responsible for helping contain the Collectivist Internationale's foothold in the New World and alongside its allies, prevent any further subversion by whatever means necessary.

Nor should one ignore the over 110 Million people who make up the tapestry that's Gran Patagonia. While the majority of the population is classified as European, these also go past American standards of "White" to include mixed-race Mestizos. Among them, however, the Criollo-Españoles ("Creoles-Spaniards"), whether descended from the original colonists or later arrivals from Spain, take precedence over other European lineages, of which those of Italians and Prussian origin tend to predominate. The remainder, meanwhile, are largely comprised of the Indios, particularly the Mapuches, Quechua (Incan descendants in Upper Peru) and the Guarani (a peculiar case due to being technically Mestizo outside Paraguay), who have long since overcome long-held tensions and discrimination against them. The same, however, couldn't be said of their treatment of certain foreigners, though more for cultural and historical reasons than anything else. This is particularly evident in the disdain for New Austrians outside of them being monarchist, due to lingering smears (going back to the colonial period) of them being "traitors" to Spain, as well as with Brazilians due to long-standing rivalries and more recent perceptions of inferiority. To say nothing of how defensive and at times, confrontational, Gran Patagonians can be when dealing with the seeming contradictions of their love of liberty and, as slanderous rumors highlight, a seeming willingness to maintain power at all costs, as with Brazil.
Still, even with the harrowing reality of the Reds, the people of that corner of the New World will do whatever it takes to ensure their motto of En unidad y democracia ("In unity and democracy") stays true. No matter what.

- "The Westinghouse Atlas of the New World." American Federation. 2023 Edition.


As a bit of trivia, some of the Argentinian placenames are either archaic forms or references to historical events in Latin American history. In addition, some of them are nods to the actual tendencies of towns and cities there to take cues from the immigrants who founded them.

While Gran Patagonia's democracy is very much functional, the murkier aspects of it are an amalgamation elements from various dictatorial regimes in Latin America, particularly around the time of the actual Cold War.

The Sol de la Republica is the Sol de Mayo or Sun of May, the national emblem of both Argentina and Uruguay in real life.



It's strange to have places with poor democracy being governed by a "Liberal" government, since one of the main platforms of Liberalism is increased democracy. Historically, Liberal movements pushed for things like electoral reform (e.g. getting rid of "rotten boroughs" in the UK), extending the franchise, and constitutional limits on the executive. Though I suppose it could represent a snapshot in an unfree state undergoing the process of liberalization.
It's strange to have places with poor democracy being governed by a "Liberal" government, since one of the main platforms of Liberalism is increased democracy. Historically, Liberal movements pushed for things like electoral reform (e.g. getting rid of "rotten boroughs" in the UK), extending the franchise, and constitutional limits on the executive. Though I suppose it could represent a snapshot in an unfree state undergoing the process of liberalization.
In the Conference states it’s more of a “liberalism, but only for white people” situation - the others, particularly Maine, are in the situation you describe.
Who governs Florida and Maryland, and what is the situation in Deseret like?
Florida is governed by Anglo supremacists clinging to power after the tourism industry crashed - it was a Conference state before Governor Power’s autogolpe. The Navy aided with the Conference and was able to carve out a “Free Florida” in the Panhandle. They will post tourism ads. Do not listen to them. The closest OTL analogue is probably apartheid Rhodesia or South Africa.
Chesapeake is a thoroughly corrupt one-party state that has come to the conclusion that open repression is bad for business. The closest OTL analogue is probably somewhere between Daley-era Chicago and modern Russia.
Deseret is in the middle of a terrorist campaign by organized separatists, or a campaign of repression of the democratic will of the people of Deseret, depending on who you ask. A ceasefire has been in place since 2014, in which most rural areas are under Deseretian authority and the Utah Valley is officially neutral territory. However, both sides still make maximalist claims, and the recent siege of a Ministry of Agriculture field office in San Jorge/St. George makes the ceasefire seem doomed.
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