Map Thread XIV
- Thread starter MorningDew
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Progress continues. I've changes a few things on the southern-central continent and now most of the island chains should make sense.
Alternate Resistance: Fall of Man
III
III
Half of 1949 has passed leaving the fronts devastated, we couldn’t imagine the next few months being worse. We were wrong again.
As during the initial phases of the invasion, the Chimera used the rivers as vehicles both for their virus and their forces, putting them at the gates of Pittsburgh. The siege of the city became a bloodbath. Everything west of the Appalachians either fell almost immediately after the collapse of the wall of the Mississippi or was abandoned in favour of a last desperate defence on the mountain chain. At the same time the Americans continued launching what was left in their possession of their nuclear arsenal at the main centres of the monsters. The West Coast had been completely abandoned by that point in time. Alabama was fortified and the remaining land scorched, the Americans waited for an offensive that never came, instead the Chimera surprisingly pushed through the border between Virginia and North Carolina with airborne troops.
Western Florida, Alabama and three fourths of Georgia soon fell after that. The Commonwealth occupied the remaining part of Florida by jumping from the Bahamas through massive air invasions. The Commonwealth resisted the advances of the Chimera in eastern Canada, but the reality was that the Chimera didn’t try to push through and focused on reaching the Canadian Arctic as soon as possible. The alarming part, that the British at that point knew but the remainder of Europe didn’t, was that the Chimera planned to reach a very turbulent Russia through the Arctic while their invasion forces, smashed by nuclear weaponry on the Western Coast, were rebuilt.
We saw the U.S. hanging off the edge and with no reasons to see them back again on their feet. In response, we Europeans prepared the largest offensive mankind had seen and trained a force larger than the entirety of the combined standing armies of the Great War.
To the South, away from the eyes of the world, line after line of defences collapsed under the weight of Chimeran forces in Mexico. But for every one that failed, five more were erected. The conditions were terrible with disease, overcrowding and lack of air superiority multiplying the casualties. But they didn’t stop resisting by the constant bombardment, they didn’t stop when the locks of the Panamá Canal were destroyed and Gatún drained, they didn’t stop when Mexico was overrun and the fighting became guerrilla warfare in Central America, they didn’t stop fighting amongst napalm showers and wildfires in Guatemala, amongst the bodies of their dead and the diseases that they and the jungles carried. And when they were pushed beyond Panama they didn’t break as the Americans did.
The links in my sig go to a short story and an ongoing story set in the universe. It's all military science fiction. There are also several other shorts set in the universe, all posted in the Writer's Forum.
Stuff like the map of Africa don't figure into the stories so much; it's simply worldbuilding so the lives of the characters and the backdrop feels more fully realized
I love this series of maps, but how exactly did you screw russians enough to be a plurality(supposedly for a while) even in your Russia? Even given OTL's numbers, this territory would hold at least 105 million russians today. Supposedly, this Russia also had much brighter 20th century, with the absence of such things as collectivisation, 1931-1933 famine, WW2 ravaging most of the heartland(where exclusively russian death-toll is about 16 million), or the soviet policies of forced urbanization, not to mention the effects of soviet breakdown and the 90's. Now, even today the central asian region has about 65 million people, of which 5 million are russians, which I had already counted, and ITTL there wouldn't be as big population explosions as happened after 91. The demographic transition, given more wealthy status of the country, is likely to start and end in central asia earlier ITTL, without the effects of disintegrating of upper urbanized class and massive poverty at the helm of it. And in Manchuria there probably were around 30-35 million people at the time the russians captured it, so it would be safe to approximately double it, maybe a bit more. I very much doubt that OTL figures of 110 million people would be achievable without massive chinese immigration.
It'll give us a figure of about 120-140 million non-russians, Which would be about equal to the OTL number of russians plus the direct losses of 20th century, not figuring the potential ones. Plus ITTL I presume there would be quite a lot of immigration from Ukraine and Belarus to boot, which would easily approach about 85 and 20 million population respectfully, and would probably consider themselves russian in a generation or two after settling down, if not already, since russian minority wouldn't evaporate from their territories(surely there wasn't a russian holocaust ITTL?!).
OTL has about 110 million Russians in Russia, leaving about 30 million non Russians. Add in the Stans and we're looking at ~120 million to ~90 million. Add in your conservative Manchuria estimate and we've got ~120 million to ~150 million. Without Stalinist schemes Russians probably add another 10 million or so, and removing WWII (mostly, I mean there were still serious losses by Russia, though "only" in the 2-3 million range) adds by this point probably another 20 million of so, which would give us ~150 to ~150. However, Stalinist schemes also severly impacted Central Asia (famine killed about a million people and a large number moved to China) and a few million central Asians died in WWII as well (~10% for Kazakhstan, a little lower for Uzbekistan), so with growth those likely add another 5-10 million to the non-Russian population. Then you have not insignificant illegal immigration (and occasionally legal immigration) from the Indias (the US sits on about 11 million from Latin America, India has a lot more people and the living standard gap was a fair bit bigger by the 90s, though the voyage more perilous, so we'll say about 10 million here) and immigration from wartorn Europe (Russia was trying to raise living standards, all those German machinists, Polish doctors, etc. weren't exactly going to get turned back. Even if total numbers were only akin to Australia or Canada (which is plausible as a nation which long accepted immigrants, but not to US levels) combined with Volga Germans and others not being persecuted you're probably adding another 10 million or so non-Russians there at least, so we're likely looking at ~150 vs. 160-170 million. Russians have only just crossed the line from majority to plurality though.
It occurs to me that the refugee situation in the Arabian Peninsula is going to be incredibly tragic. With the breakdown of most cohesive governments, a lot of people living there will have to face either a dangerous trek across the desert or attempt to cross the sea. But I suppose that's what happens in war. Are you planning on making a 2016 map? As with history, I don't expect the scenario to end cleanly but it would certainly be neat to see it carried to the present day.
Also, Brazil is certainly doing well for itself. My ASB radar started going off when I saw the territory encompassed in the Latin Union but I suppose it makes sense after ~60 years of cooperation, and economic and military dependence. I imagine Russia is eyeing them somewhat warily but I'm more curious about how the USA feels about the situation. Clearly Brazil feels no danger in tearing the Monroe Doctrine to pieces before the Americans' eyes.
So, I kind of got this idea after playing copious amounts of Fallout 4 of a city made up of refugees coming from all across the world to one place (This idea besides the name has little to do with Fallout 4). The result is the centerpiece of my fantasy world that I have been developing for six years, the City of Sanctuary, an independent nation and city-state. Now, I based this off of the geography off of Atlantic City, but I made some changes and the size is larger.
----------
Sanctuary, The Mother of Exiles
The world in the final years of the Third Era had grown to be a dangerous one, moving along the edge of disaster for centuries as global powers continued to build up their strength over the course of one final century. The Aurelian Empire, ancient with origins going all the way back to the First Era, had been the pinnacle of global civilization for as long as anybody could remember. The Xi, rich with culture and supposedly the longest lasting culture in the world, had gone through decades of rapid modernization. The Ruthenian Empire, an upstart on the world stage which hoped to surpass Aurelia as a global power, quickly became an antagonist to Aurelian-Xi interests. The Breton Empire, a proud seafaring people with a fleet of thousands of ships, waited for their chance to prove themselves as a defender of democracy and liberty across the globe. These powers teetered on the brink of destruction for years, waging proxy-wars among the minor powers or proving their strength through close calls with other countries. Even though it might seem like they were the only nations in the world, there were in fact dozens of others. The Avendar, the Cor-Menda, the Aionans, the Aoakans, the Mirians, the Aledoan Islands, the Maladulians, and many others sat in between these titanic powers. Often they were left alone, but as time passed, they became the victims of the global game for dominance that the great powers played. Despite attempts to broker peace in those final years, a massive war broke out. The Aurelians, Xi, and the Bretons all fought against the Ruthenians and the Aionans, both allies in an attempt to dominate the world. This war was the largest and the most destructive, new atomic weapons tearing cities apart as entire ethnic groups and nations that had existed for thousands of years were wiped out in fortnights. Hundreds of millions would die at the end of this twenty-two year long war, exhausting the great powers and leaving millions of people displaced. Even though the Ruthenians were wiped out in the end, the victors themselves were left licking their wounds and even on the brink of death.
Perhaps the greatest casualty were the Aurelians. Their empire was drained after two decades of fighting, an entire generation of men and women scarred and resentful of their leaders. This led to at the beginning of the Fourth Era the Aurelian Revolution. In the second year of the Fourth Era (4E-2), the last Emperor of Aurelia was murdered in Imperial City as revolutionaries stormed the Imperial Palace. The Aurelian Federal Republic was founded in its place, becoming the largest democracy in human history. A parliament was created, and leaders were elected. Despite that they faced a crisis of untold proportions. Millions of refugees roamed the countryside, their homes wiped out from years of bombings and radiation from the atomic weapons. It was an international crisis, and few nations were capable of handling it. Some took part in ethnic cleansing, discreetly shipping refugees in trucks to their deaths in concentration camps. Other nations used them as slave labor offering the hope of freedom if they worked hard enough, and few rarely ever did. In other countries, they were left to starve and were ignored by the public. But in Aurelia, they had in their field an advocate named Janna Locke. The last Princess of the Avendar, one of the first nations conquered by the Ruthenians, she and the last hundred thousand of her people came upon the new Aurelian Federal Republic and begged for help. The new nation hoping to prove its devotion to human rights offered assistance. They took an island at the mouth of the River Black, the same river where two dozen miles downriver is Concordia, and turned that island into a refugee city. At one point it was the home of the ancient rulers of Aurelia, but they handed it over to the International Community Organization (ICO), a peace-keeping organization, for a period of five years to house the refugees until the world recovered enough to handle the crisis. Janna Locke led her people there, and the peoples of several other exiled ethnic groups. In total, half a million people ended up on this island they called Sanctuary. And rather than wait for five years, they planned an entire city. Buildings were made of brick with glass windows, a provisional government was created, and a temporary city charter was drawn up.
In 4E-7, the agreement with ICO came to an end, but Sanctuary had in that time been built up. A City Hall and small businesses and even the start of a skyscraper formed a downtown area, while apartment buildings and homes were constructed in the surrounding areas. A shipyard that saw commerce coming into the city and bringing in an income helped to fund a higher standard of living for the people, while various ethnic neighborhoods brought a colorful diversity to the island. The Aurelian Federal Republic however had a plan to bring these refugees elsewhere. The refugees however considered themselves brothers and sisters despite their different origins. Children from different cultures attended school, and even an accredited college took in students. At first they proposed being brought into Aurelia as its own city to elect a mayor and a council and to swear fealty to the Federal Republic. After all, other cities were self-governing in the Aurelian Federal Republic, like Concordia and Soul Tides and Blackport, but the Aurelian President refused. An agreement was made and the agreement must be followed, they argued, but Janna Locke was having none of it. Instead, with the support of the provisional government she declared the Republic of Sanctuary City, put in place a City Charter, and was named Mayor of Sanctuary by her supporters. Quickly transforming fishing boats into gunboats and cargo ships into battleships with the help of funding, they blocked the mouth of the River Black and would do so until their independence was recognized. The Aurelians decided to send their army to cross into the city and arrest Janna Locke and the City Council. And so they came, fifteen thousand of them, armed with their rifles and tanks, but Sanctuary was prepared. They knew the land where the Aurelian Emperors and Empresses called home for thousands of years, knowing the hills and the groves, and armed themselves for a long occupation. Throughout that summer they fought, and it turned into an embarrassment for Aurelia. International opinion was against them, the Bretons sending their fleet to reinforce the blockade of the River Black, and ICO sending peacekeepers to aid Sanctuary's citizens, and promising to have its headquarters on the island. In the end, Aurelia withdrew, recognizing Sanctuary's independence.
Over the next one hundred and ten years, Sanctuary developed into a city of over two million people, vibrant and colorful cultures filling its streets. Refugees and exiles from wars over the next century would come to Sanctuary for aid, their cuisine, language, music, and art permeating through the city. The City Council reflected this diversity, their twenty-six members being of all colors, creeds, and faiths. Few suffered the indignities that immigrants and refugees suffered from in the past or in other nations. Now, skyscrapers tower over Downtown, massive public parks cleaned and taken care of by a concerned population, and the Beacon, an eternal fire in the Beacon Hill Memorial Park, lighting the way for refugees to come. It can be seen from all across the island as a symbol of hope, and acts as a lighthouse for those coming from the sea of despair to a calm port for refuge. Today, Sanctuary ships patrol the world's seas and oceans to protect merchants from piracy, to find refugees out in the seas, and to project the power that a small city at the edge of a great empire can have in a world still recovering from a world gone mad. Only ten years they celebrated one hundred years of existence, of trials and tribulations that other nations might not survive. After a century of antagonism with Aurelia, their rivalry has gone from a military one to a sports one, while overseas they are seen as a center of culture, trade, music, fashion, and food. Now, Sanctuary waits to see what this next century brings them, but as the Aurelian Federal Republic has expanded elsewhere, bringing in other cultures and itself becoming a diverse nation of half a billion, Sanctuary now is seriously considering a vote to join the Aurelian Federal Republic.
----------
Sanctuary, The Mother of Exiles
The world in the final years of the Third Era had grown to be a dangerous one, moving along the edge of disaster for centuries as global powers continued to build up their strength over the course of one final century. The Aurelian Empire, ancient with origins going all the way back to the First Era, had been the pinnacle of global civilization for as long as anybody could remember. The Xi, rich with culture and supposedly the longest lasting culture in the world, had gone through decades of rapid modernization. The Ruthenian Empire, an upstart on the world stage which hoped to surpass Aurelia as a global power, quickly became an antagonist to Aurelian-Xi interests. The Breton Empire, a proud seafaring people with a fleet of thousands of ships, waited for their chance to prove themselves as a defender of democracy and liberty across the globe. These powers teetered on the brink of destruction for years, waging proxy-wars among the minor powers or proving their strength through close calls with other countries. Even though it might seem like they were the only nations in the world, there were in fact dozens of others. The Avendar, the Cor-Menda, the Aionans, the Aoakans, the Mirians, the Aledoan Islands, the Maladulians, and many others sat in between these titanic powers. Often they were left alone, but as time passed, they became the victims of the global game for dominance that the great powers played. Despite attempts to broker peace in those final years, a massive war broke out. The Aurelians, Xi, and the Bretons all fought against the Ruthenians and the Aionans, both allies in an attempt to dominate the world. This war was the largest and the most destructive, new atomic weapons tearing cities apart as entire ethnic groups and nations that had existed for thousands of years were wiped out in fortnights. Hundreds of millions would die at the end of this twenty-two year long war, exhausting the great powers and leaving millions of people displaced. Even though the Ruthenians were wiped out in the end, the victors themselves were left licking their wounds and even on the brink of death.
Perhaps the greatest casualty were the Aurelians. Their empire was drained after two decades of fighting, an entire generation of men and women scarred and resentful of their leaders. This led to at the beginning of the Fourth Era the Aurelian Revolution. In the second year of the Fourth Era (4E-2), the last Emperor of Aurelia was murdered in Imperial City as revolutionaries stormed the Imperial Palace. The Aurelian Federal Republic was founded in its place, becoming the largest democracy in human history. A parliament was created, and leaders were elected. Despite that they faced a crisis of untold proportions. Millions of refugees roamed the countryside, their homes wiped out from years of bombings and radiation from the atomic weapons. It was an international crisis, and few nations were capable of handling it. Some took part in ethnic cleansing, discreetly shipping refugees in trucks to their deaths in concentration camps. Other nations used them as slave labor offering the hope of freedom if they worked hard enough, and few rarely ever did. In other countries, they were left to starve and were ignored by the public. But in Aurelia, they had in their field an advocate named Janna Locke. The last Princess of the Avendar, one of the first nations conquered by the Ruthenians, she and the last hundred thousand of her people came upon the new Aurelian Federal Republic and begged for help. The new nation hoping to prove its devotion to human rights offered assistance. They took an island at the mouth of the River Black, the same river where two dozen miles downriver is Concordia, and turned that island into a refugee city. At one point it was the home of the ancient rulers of Aurelia, but they handed it over to the International Community Organization (ICO), a peace-keeping organization, for a period of five years to house the refugees until the world recovered enough to handle the crisis. Janna Locke led her people there, and the peoples of several other exiled ethnic groups. In total, half a million people ended up on this island they called Sanctuary. And rather than wait for five years, they planned an entire city. Buildings were made of brick with glass windows, a provisional government was created, and a temporary city charter was drawn up.
In 4E-7, the agreement with ICO came to an end, but Sanctuary had in that time been built up. A City Hall and small businesses and even the start of a skyscraper formed a downtown area, while apartment buildings and homes were constructed in the surrounding areas. A shipyard that saw commerce coming into the city and bringing in an income helped to fund a higher standard of living for the people, while various ethnic neighborhoods brought a colorful diversity to the island. The Aurelian Federal Republic however had a plan to bring these refugees elsewhere. The refugees however considered themselves brothers and sisters despite their different origins. Children from different cultures attended school, and even an accredited college took in students. At first they proposed being brought into Aurelia as its own city to elect a mayor and a council and to swear fealty to the Federal Republic. After all, other cities were self-governing in the Aurelian Federal Republic, like Concordia and Soul Tides and Blackport, but the Aurelian President refused. An agreement was made and the agreement must be followed, they argued, but Janna Locke was having none of it. Instead, with the support of the provisional government she declared the Republic of Sanctuary City, put in place a City Charter, and was named Mayor of Sanctuary by her supporters. Quickly transforming fishing boats into gunboats and cargo ships into battleships with the help of funding, they blocked the mouth of the River Black and would do so until their independence was recognized. The Aurelians decided to send their army to cross into the city and arrest Janna Locke and the City Council. And so they came, fifteen thousand of them, armed with their rifles and tanks, but Sanctuary was prepared. They knew the land where the Aurelian Emperors and Empresses called home for thousands of years, knowing the hills and the groves, and armed themselves for a long occupation. Throughout that summer they fought, and it turned into an embarrassment for Aurelia. International opinion was against them, the Bretons sending their fleet to reinforce the blockade of the River Black, and ICO sending peacekeepers to aid Sanctuary's citizens, and promising to have its headquarters on the island. In the end, Aurelia withdrew, recognizing Sanctuary's independence.
Over the next one hundred and ten years, Sanctuary developed into a city of over two million people, vibrant and colorful cultures filling its streets. Refugees and exiles from wars over the next century would come to Sanctuary for aid, their cuisine, language, music, and art permeating through the city. The City Council reflected this diversity, their twenty-six members being of all colors, creeds, and faiths. Few suffered the indignities that immigrants and refugees suffered from in the past or in other nations. Now, skyscrapers tower over Downtown, massive public parks cleaned and taken care of by a concerned population, and the Beacon, an eternal fire in the Beacon Hill Memorial Park, lighting the way for refugees to come. It can be seen from all across the island as a symbol of hope, and acts as a lighthouse for those coming from the sea of despair to a calm port for refuge. Today, Sanctuary ships patrol the world's seas and oceans to protect merchants from piracy, to find refugees out in the seas, and to project the power that a small city at the edge of a great empire can have in a world still recovering from a world gone mad. Only ten years they celebrated one hundred years of existence, of trials and tribulations that other nations might not survive. After a century of antagonism with Aurelia, their rivalry has gone from a military one to a sports one, while overseas they are seen as a center of culture, trade, music, fashion, and food. Now, Sanctuary waits to see what this next century brings them, but as the Aurelian Federal Republic has expanded elsewhere, bringing in other cultures and itself becoming a diverse nation of half a billion, Sanctuary now is seriously considering a vote to join the Aurelian Federal Republic.
Isaac Beach
Banned
This world, IC aside, seems rather more cooperative than our own even in the face of an actual nuclear war. (Which sounds as though it's going to have some nasty fallout; hello boom in radiotherapy. Which actually raises a slightly off the ball question; how's oncology in this TL? As advanced? More advanced? Less so?) Aside that, could you elaborate on the feminist revolution in the former IC states? I can't imagine it'd be exactly as OTL's and especially not in the nuked-out Middle East. How's the Hue Coalition, I asked a similar question previously but what's the politics within it like?
On the subject of the African nations, which would you say is the most advanced? A lot of them are doing quite well compared to OTL, East Africa, Algeria and Morocco, perhaps Katanga or that little Fascist enclave hanging on like a tumour.
And I, as most people, am curious as to whether you'll do a 2016 map. It's a very good series, and it'd be odd to compare it to OTL 2016.
Very interesting. So India is now more 'in' with the rest of the world?
Also who is running the Falklands?
And how is the US and Australia going?
Glad to see this come back! And just something about how all the colors are set up (especially around Somalia and such) is very aesthetically pleasing!
Is the world at this point basically going to be very similar to OTL's, where it's a mostly monopolar world with Russia on top?
I wonder if there are going to be ethnic tensions in New Afrika, since now that they are independent, angry southern Whites that fell through the cracks are going to passionately dislike the African-American elite.
Indeed, the peninsual is one of the worse off areas. Luckily fleeing across the Gulf leads to an Iran with roughly Italian levels of HDI, so many refugees are finished their journey at that first stop. Escaping into the Ottoman Empire sees them enter a nation with roughly French levels of living standards, though it's a bit strained right now.
I am planning to go until 2016 (possibly 2017 depending on how long it takes me to get there with everything else I do...)
Latin America has slowly been becoming more EU like, and that core region has only just passed a little more united than OTL's EU (it's kind of like if the EU and NATO were one thing and NATO had more binding agreements). Russia sees a strong Latin America as an important balance to the USA as Washington has been a bit uncooperative of late. The US meanwhile very much dislikes Brazil and has done so since Brazil helped Colombia avoid going Communist.
They are indeed mostly more cooperative. Like I've mentioned part of that is Russia not quite being the hyper power OTL's USA is, so they needed more allies. A history of Russia being open to compromises helped secondary states like China, Brazil, or Communist India feel they were seen as equal partners.
As for Oncology, some parts of it are a bit behind OTL, but using viral vectors to fight cancer is significantly ahead of otl, which from early studies in OTL seems to be a much more pleasant experience than Chemo (virology in general is more advanced, which means outside of the former USSA sphere of influence antibiotic resistance isn't really a thing, viral cocktails have been used in the free world akin to how OTL sees them used in Russia and a number of former communist states).
The feminist revolutions were an actual political revolution. Young women significantly outnumbered young men with so many troops dead, MIA, or just stranded elsewhere in the former IC. The shakey post war regional governments hoped they could use some of these women as militias to replace the manpower shortage, but misjudged just how much women despised the hardliner regimes that had taken away so many of their rights, and so once they were (mostly) trained to serve as paramilitary militias they thanked the regional governments by staging coups. They're honestly very radical and with some misandric tendencies, because political revolutions frequently end up digging up the worst in the movement behind the revolution. Algeria's still rather conservative government doesn't much trust them, but the Ukrainians (who've elected the same woman to Chancellor status for the past 16 years) have been trying to approach them and de-radicalise the rhetoric.
The Hue are doing fairly nicely for themselves. Living standards overally are at roughly OTL eastern European levels (Laos remains at more or less Ukrainian levels, and the upper Burma/North East Indian states are closer to Moldova, but China is sitting at about Romanian living standards, while Thailand, the Malay Peninsual, and some Bornean states are pushing towards Polish levels).
For Africa as a whole it would probably be Morocco then Algeria, then German South West Africa, then Cameroon and East Africa are about even. Outside of the Islamist states and Fascists Africa in general is doing a fair bit better, and until recently the Islamist states had been doing fairly well for themselves. South Africa is a bit of a murky zone, living standards for the middle class are a fair bit worse than OTL, but the poor are doing better, so the median South African is doing better while the average South Africa is doing a bit worse.
I will indeed.
Yes. They were a little bit closer to the 'Free World' than OTL's China currently is politically, but after the war there's been a fair bit of internal pressure to democratise and get more 'in' with Russia or the Hue to ensure they don't get dragged into as many wars as the 'Lonely Great Power'.
Chile.
Australia remains isolationist, conservative, and militant. The tech gap with the outside world is growing more noticeable though as even Indonesians are starting to have cell phones in significant numbers.
The US is starting to feel the strains of ultra-liberalising their economy as inequality is skyrocketing, wages dropping, and corruption in the medical services and other essentials grows rampant. Think about OTL's Russia's issues, they're doing a little better (living standards and wages are still higher), but the style of issues is roughly the same.
Sadly the nicest maps usually mean the most unpleasant worlds.
Not quite. A more open and cooperative China as well as a more stable Brazil means there are two other powers that as nudging against super power status. The Russians are watching Chinese GDP numbers fairly nervously hoping it doesn't pass them. The Russians have a total GDP of about 14.3 trillion OTL US dollars (OTL the USA sits at about 18 trillion) while China is sitting at about 13 trillion (to OTL's 11 trillion). Brazil's economy is rather far behind with about 5 trillion GDP (a bit ahead of OTL's Japan) and Germany sits there with about the same.
Yes. Definitely.
Alan Hardy
Banned
At some point I feel a question of unification or entrenchment will be put to the voters of Northern Ireland. SF successfully get elected to the House of Commons but don't take their seats. That's a democratic deficit in its self. The population of Catholics is increasing and the Unionist are decreasing. At some point in the near future (I guess about 2030) the 50% balance will be turned. Question in my mind is Status Quo or something else? The reality on the ground could be solved by asking each land owner, in turn, who has the border as part of their boundary or running through their land to elect to move it by checking it one way or the other in an accessible but secure web site. I term this a "rubber band border".
Alex Richards
Donor
The former may be true, the latter is not necessarily so- in fact an increasing proportion of Catholics are also supporting Unionism. I'm not even going to mention how ludicrously impractical that border is.
Logistically and ethically, these borders wouldn't make any sense. Even with an open border, the various nooks and crannies make for awful bordergore that more than likely splits communities than unites them. For reference, look at this map (it's from 2001, when the proportion of Protestants was 4% higher and Catholics were 0.6% lower). Although there are many pockets of Catholic and Protestant strongholds, many parts of the country are more equal, and this map seems to have a heavy Protestant bias as many Catholic areas (e.g. Downpatrick, which is nearly 90% Catholic alongside its neighboring Lecale communities) are grouped in with rump NI to connect Protestant communities. It also doesn't make sense to give a random bit of Belfast that includes populations of both sides with the Republic, as it is completely disconnected and would further hamper Belfast (especially if this happened in the Troubles era). Especially today, repartition and resettlement would be a logistical nightmare and example of unnecessary ethnic cleansing, as moving two communities of nearly two million people is virtually impossible, especially if the Catholic area is so small. Repartition never had major support, either, and today the only potential option would be all or nothing. As Alex Richards said, many Catholics are fine with staying in the UK (at least for now), so although by 2020 they'll be the majority, doesn't mean the status quo will change soon.
Alan Hardy
Banned
Yes the border would quite likely be twice as long, but those unhappy with the current situation would be reduced by about 75%. That's worthwhile in my book.
None of this is sustainable in the long term, in the end Ireland will probably have to consider unification wholelyAt some point I feel a question of unification or entrenchment will be put to the voters of Northern Ireland. SF successfully get elected to the House of Commons but don't take their seats. That's a democratic deficit in its self. The population of Catholics is increasing and the Unionist are decreasing. At some point in the near future (I guess about 2030) the 50% balance will be turned. Question in my mind is Status Quo or something else? The reality on the ground could be solved by asking each land owner, in turn, who has the border as part of their boundary or running through their land to elect to move it by checking it one way or the other in an accessible but secure web site. I term this a "rubber band border".
- Status