Map Thread XIII
- Thread starter Pragmatic Progressive
- Start date
- Status
Witch0Winter
Banned
This is why, in all honesty, that map is probably going to be the very last one I'll post in any map thread. I can handle constructive criticism. I can even handle the non-constructive criticism this board loves to hand out in limited quantities. However, when the majority of responses to my maps (as has been the case the last several times) are either pedantic criticisms over minor details that will be fixed anyway or asking obvious questions because they can't be bothered to read a description longer than a couple sentences (namely, when answer to said question is IN the description), then it's time to go.
Just a little somethin' I whipped up in an hour or so; based off a game of Vicky 2 where Estonia of all places is able to colonize Shikoku, and actually made it to around 3% Estonian.
It's always good to see an Estonian AH! A few corrections to your text:
"The Üdassi" should be "Üdassid", as ethnic groups are always in plural.
"extinct people" should be "väljasurnud rahvas" (the word "inimene" is closer in usage to the word "human").
"in twenty years" should be "kahekümne aasta pärast" (literally "twenty years after")
The end is pretty decent, but in this kind of sentences "you" is moved after the predicate for emphasis. So "mida teed sina, et aidata" ("sina" is a longer form of "sa", also more appropriate in this case).
OK, I was in the middle of a reply when I happened to preview and see this. Forget it then, clearly my comments weren't valued.
Witch0Winter
Banned
Your comments are valued if they're at least nice about the criticism, like the post above yours, or try to at least help instead of the endless parade of nitpicks I get every time I make a map. Also, if you'd care to notice, I actually went ahead and fixed the names anyway, including renaming the Amazon, with help from Reagent.
Actually, no there is a difference. Constructive criticism does just that, construct. I.e., present alternatives or suggestions that still allow for the growth of a creative endeavor (like artistry). Nitpicking is just pointing out petty grievances or perceived errors without anything to remedy it from their point of view. IMO, if you're going to offer unsolicited critiques of someone's work, either provide useful feedback or shut up and move on.
That's fine, and I'm sorry if I seemed too nit-picky.
The problem is that this is AlternateHistory.com, not PrettyMaps.com. The whole idea is that people here should care about the history and timeline behind the map, not just the map itself. So you shouldn't be surprised that a question comes up like "Why does a Brazil that's been English-run for 200 years still have Portuguese river names?" I don't even care if it's a mistake, but if there was a reason behind it I'd be interested to know. And if there isn't then maybe I'll have pointed out something that could be changed to improve the alternate history behind the map, as you have done.
I'm well aware that's it's rich coming from me, since I've often cared more about the looks of a map than the history behind it. I just don't think you should be surprised if someone picks up on the history over the map itself - that's the sort of place this is (or at least should be in my opinion).
Anyway, this is my last post on the topic. Enjoy DeviantArt or wherever you end up!
Witch0Winter
Banned
The problem is less that people point out the history, but how they do it. If you were honestly interested in it, a post like "Oh, that's interesting, why are there Portuguese names on those rivers? Are the Portuguese still around, did the Brazilians just keep it, was it a map error?" works fine and I'd be happy to answer. The problem is, maybe it's just fatigue from posting all my maps over time or something, but most of the comments come across more as "You're so stupid, why would you even do that? Change it now, moron." Hence my ending of posting maps on here. It just gets tiring. Even if it's not what people mean, it'd be nice to at least word it in a kind way, or offer suggestions for help.
I'll still post my maps in my Artwork Thread (which gets plenty of critical comments on its own), plus my own website and deviantart (which can be even MORE pedantic).
I have an example of the former question type: out of curiosity, what led you to use the "Tea" and "Red" River names on the map?
These are all the comments relating to placenames on TS's map before she complained about the supposed nitpicking:
How are any of these not constructive criticism? Hell, TS even had Reagent assist her in improving the map (and the idea that it "will be fixed anyway" makes no sense - how would it be fixed without being pointed out?). While I agree that in theory there can be a difference between criticism and nitpicking, in practice almost whenever anyone complains about nitpicking they're just unwilling to accept the criticism and thus use a more negative-sounding term for it.
(And "unsolicited"? This is a discussion board; the very act of posting something here is soliciting critique.)
Witch0Winter
Banned
Those were with the very generous help of Reagant, whose Portuguese skills are far better than mine. From his explanations:
"The Negro River could simply be called "Black River" due to the dark color. It could also be called "Tea River" since one of the first explorers remarked that the River resembled the color of Tea"
"The Araguaia River is based on a Tupi word for "river of (red) macaws" - accordingly, if you want to change it you could call it the Red River or the Macaw River."
I admit, I went for "Tea River" because I love the idea of an English colony having a whole river called tea and "Red River" because I live close to OTL's Red River on the border between Oklahoma and Texas, so I couldn't resist.
Witch0Winter
Banned
Well, for one, Reagent wasn't nitpicking but, rather, helping. For another, they aren't constructive criticism because they offer no help beyond "fix this". Further, the criticisms of both Martin and Alex aren't even correct, since as Martin pointed out the Amazon wouldn't even be called the Amazon (as Alex believed) and as Reagant pointed out to Martin many of the river names aren't Portuguese at all but derived from native names, which the English IOTL were fine with using throughout their colonies.
Also, I hardly think I'm unwilling to accept criticism since you can actually go see that I did, in fact, adjust the river names to fit the history more accurately while still being accurate to the overall feel of the region and the Anglo-Portuguese heritage of Brazil ITTL. I hardly think I am just trying to paint criticism as nitpicking. I'm fine with criticism. I call it nitpicking when the poster makes no attempt to do anything to help and takes on an aggressive tone over a relatively minor detail to the map.
Who said I was talking about this map to begin with? I was pointing out that there was a difference between constructive criticism and nitpicking, that it's not all that subjective, nothing more or less. That being said, TS did point out that it's a work in progress which does lend itself to the notion that, indeed, there may be more work to be done on it such as labeling rivers and such (hence the "will be fixed" comment, I think).
Those were with the very generous help of Reagant, whose Portuguese skills are far better than mine. From his explanations:
"The Negro River could simply be called "Black River" due to the dark color. It could also be called "Tea River" since one of the first explorers remarked that the River resembled the color of Tea"
"The Araguaia River is based on a Tupi word for "river of (red) macaws" - accordingly, if you want to change it you could call it the Red River or the Macaw River."
I admit, I went for "Tea River" because I love the idea of an English colony having a whole river called tea and "Red River" because I live close to OTL's Red River on the border between Oklahoma and Texas, so I couldn't resist.
Works for me, I figured the Tea River title had to do with the fact that the Amazon Basin has a bunch of black-water rivers due to the tannins leaching into the water supply from nearby vegetation...so actually, Tea River is quite an appropriate name! And Red River works too given that it parallels the Toucan River (and two bird rivers next to each other would just be too much
).Alright, conceded on this point. I still wouldn't really call it nitpicking, but I can't think of a better logical distinction.
That might lower the value, but it hardly makes them worthless as criticism, since their main point (that some of the rivers should have different names from OTL) is still valid. Especially when one of their problems was pointed out by the other one.
You accepted Reagent's criticism, but you (pretty arbitrarily from what I can tell) more or less ignored Martin's and Alex's.
I don't know about the responses to your previous maps, but I'm not detecting even the slightest hint of aggressiveness from either Martin or Alex.
Anyway, back to discussion of the map instead of metadiscussion: Where'd the name "Messipia" for Florida (or is it a broader area? The map only barely shows it) come from?
Witch0Winter
Banned
Reagant's post wasn't criticism, and it was made after I sent Reagant a PM asking about better river names; a fix made because of Martin's post. I didn't ignore his post, I just didn't like how it was worded as it seemed to me to be overly-hostile and lacking in constructive criticism.
ITTL, the British settle the area around the Mississippi watershed in North America, starting near OTL New Orleans. This is due to the fact that England gaining Brazil early gave them more incentive to colonize North America, particularly a region rich for trading and close enough to keep contact with Brazil. Since the name "Mississippi" IOTL is a French rendering of the Anishinaabe (Ojibwe or Algonquin) name for the river, Misi-ziibi (Great River), the name isn't set in stone, and English settlers eventually bastardize it into a more Anglicized and pseudo-classical kind of name. Messipia, being in a good position and gaining a number of colonists with a high birth rate, quickly grows and they take over the Florida peninsula from Spain to better secure their growing control over the Caribbean Sea and Gulf of Mexico. Most of the peninsula was unsettled anyway so it was easy to take, and remains so for some time, though there are trading outposts around the outer edge and St. Augustine (renamed St. James by the Brits) remains the primary town in the peninsula.Anyway, back to discussion of the map instead of metadiscussion: Where'd the name "Messipia" for Florida (or is it a broader area? The map only barely shows it) come from?
shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
The WIP continues. I really need to decide what to do with North America and Sub Saharan Africa.
How about Hudson Bay drainage basin and Greenland is taken by Denmark, the French take much of the East Coast running up to Newfoundland, the English taking it south to the tribes, which they have sway over, someone makes a stake on the Mississippi Drainage basin. With Africa, more exploration going south of the Congo Delta.
Alex Richards
Donor
I'm not sure Martin was actually saying the Amazon wouldn't be called that, merely that seeing as the most significant river in the area was only named 40 years earlier (and so may well retain the name as it's from Greek mythology rather than Portuguese) then her tributaries would likely be different.
As for native names, you'd be best to go back to the original name and then work out how an Englishman would hear that and spell it- for example Illinois is from the native name ilinwe and so if it went straight to English it might be spelt Ilinoy or Illinowy or something like that.
- Status