Map challenge: more "sane" post-1945 borders of German states

Here's a map challenge of sorts: the modern borders of several German states are (most notably North Rhine Westphalia and Rhineland-Palatinate)- for the greater part - quite arbitrarily and running criss/cross over traditional borders. So, the challenge, should you accept it, is to make a map of modern Germany that has slightly more logical state boundaries than OTL. ;)
 

Susano

Banned
*jumps up and down*

Thats ones for me! :D
Of course in my argumentation one has to consider that I wont strictly go by traditional borders, but also by other considerations ;)

Areas to consider:
1) West Germany - Well, the thing with the former Prussian provinces of Rhineland and Westphalia is that you cant simply make own states out of them and be done with it. The border would go right through the Ruhr Area, and thats unacceptable, and then theres also the Palatinate which needs to be included (it could theoreticalyl remain with Bavaria, but exclaves suck). And if the two are one state, then that state would be way too large in territory and especially population. So, there needs to be a division, and needs to be south of the Rhine-Ruhr Area, with the southern partition gaining the Palatinate. In so far the borders actually make sense.

What Id change is of course primarily that Hesse keeps its traditional lands :D - that is, Rhine Hesse (the Mainz-Worms-Bingen area), and the part sof Nassau lost to R-P IOTL. In return, R-P gains the Aachen region, so that *North Rhine Westphalias southern border is indeed just outside the Rhine-Ruhr Area. Maybe North Rhine and Westphalia could even be seperated (with the Westphalian parts of the Ruhr Area of course staying outside Westphalia)...

Oh, and the Saarland: No need for that to be an own state. To Rhineland-Palatinate.

2) South Germany: Baden and Württemberg both have large enough populations to remain own states. So they should stay seperated. Maybe Baden can also gain Ludwigshafen, its the only economically viable part of the Palatinate maybe, but this way the Rhine-Neckar area is together. And Ive always been for seperating Franconia from Bavaria. Maybe, as further Hessian expansion :D , Aschaffenburg to Hesse - its way better connected to Frankfurt than to Würzburg anyways, and the borders of regional leagues always already include Aschaffenburg with Hesse, for example...

3)Harz/North Thuringia
The borders in the Harz are completly artifical and ahistorical! Especially Thuringia goes way too far north. I mean, it needs to absorb some parts of the former Prussian province of Saxony (Erfurt was part of that province, even!), but not that much. I think much of Northernmost Thuringia should hence be part of Saxony-Anhalt, and Lower Saxony "lost" some parts there that used to belong to Hannover and Brunswick, too.

4) Bremen
Do we really need an own city state for a meager 650k people or so? Either that goes to Lower Saxony, or alternatively my proposal of a State "German Hansa", encompassing Hamburg, Bremen, Lübeck, Cuxhaven and Bremerhaven :D (That it would consist of 5 enclaves isnt that bad - theyd all be sea ports, after all)

5) General Note on OTL Eastern Germany
Current borders of the East German States are ALL ahistorical, and unlike the borders of the GDR states they suceed (before those were abolished and replaced by the GDR districts), because they largely still follow the borders of the GDR districts. Needless to say, Id give them the historical borders ;) Well, except of that one part of Mecklenburg sticking out, and the exclaves/enclaves at the Mecklenburg/Brandenburg border, those things can be corrected.
 

Susano

Banned
...I think my head just exploded. Could you do a map?

Well, Ive used some ideas of that in earlier maps of mine...

Here is a moderate example, not going just as crazy:
Independant Baden (but without Ludwigshafen) and Württemberg, Old-Borders Hesse (without Aschaffenburg), different North Thuringian border (but still only minor corrections), Aachen part of R-P (but North Rhine Wetsphalia staying together, and Saarland independant), German Hansa

Whereas here Ive gone crazy :D But it shows the Westphalian and Franconian secession. And actually, the Halle-Leipzig Metroipolitan Region being together isnt bad, either... Id have Brandenburg absorb the rest of Saxony-Anhalt, though. Hell, its basically the Brandenburger Altmark anyways! (plus Magdeburg)

Now, for a synthesis of ideas Id have to make a new map, I guess. But thats a bit frustrating - for the one map I used a basemap showing the German states and provinces in the Interbellum, which is good to get the East German borders, and for the other map I used a basemap of the German counties, which is good for fine adjustments. But a basemap showing both together doesnt exist, obviously...
 
There's a few quite small bits I've been wondering on if we think of traditional borders:

- Western Pomerania. What do with it (you wouldn't dare giving it Sweden, would you, Susano?!! :p:eek:;) ) . It makes no sense to merge a Prussian province to Mecklemburg (which was never part of Prussia, anyways, and qualifies as a state of it's own), but maybe with Brandenburg.

- That teeny-tiny bit of Silesia which remains German post-1945, it would also make more sense giving it to Brandenburg, rather than Saxony.

- Hohenzollern, the only Prussian province in southern Germany. Where should it go (Württemberg?)
 

Susano

Banned
T
- Western Pomerania. What do with it (you wouldn't dare giving it Sweden, would you, Susano?!! :p:eek:;) ) . It makes no sense to merge a Prussian province to Mecklemburg (which was never part of Prussia, anyways, and qualifies as a state of it's own), but maybe with Brandenburg.
Eh, but purely by geography Mecklenburg does make the most sense. So what if Pommerania was a Prussian province...

- That teeny-tiny bit of Silesia which remains German post-1945, it would also make more sense giving it to Brandenburg, rather than Saxony.
Again, geographcially Saxony makes more sense. Though one could give it to Brandenburg, plus Saxonian Lusatia, so that Lusatia is again united in one state...

- Hohenzollern, the only Prussian province in southern Germany. Where should it go (Württemberg?)
For the most part, but the southernmost part should go to Baden, plus some border corrections between Baden and Württemberg Id say (and as I have depicted in my first map...)
 
Eh, but purely by geography Mecklenburg does make the most sense. So what if Pommerania was a Prussian province...

You mean Mecklenburg there, don't you. ;)

Again, geographcially Saxony makes more sense. Though one could give it to Brandenburg, plus Saxonian Lusatia, so that Lusatia is again united in one state...

Everythings fine as long as the PoleTrolls lay no claim on that land... :p;)

For the most part, but the southernmost part should go to Baden, plus some border corrections between Baden and Württemberg Id say (and as I have depicted in my first map...)

You mean, with the Danube as a natural border? I mean, it doesn't matter much, it's just a small strip of land, anyways. Stupid Prussians... ;)
 
Here's a map challenge of sorts: the modern borders of several German states are (most notably North Rhine Westphalia and Rhineland-Palatinate)- for the greater part - quite arbitrarily and running criss/cross over traditional borders. So, the challenge, should you accept it, is to make a map of modern Germany that has slightly more logical state boundaries than OTL. ;)
The problem is mostly that those borders were defined by the Trizone borders in the immediate postwar occupation time.

The French Occupation Zone, the way it was formed, doesn't really make much sense - except for the fact that Heidelberg was the USAREUR HQ, so obviously it had to belong to the US Zone. Otherwise it would have made real sense to just give France all of Baden, perhaps Hohenzollern and the former bishopry territories of Mainz (to round it out a bit) as territory East of the Rhine. As compensation for North Baden, give the US South Württemberg and the general area of Koblenz. There would still be a small slice of South Württemberg in the French Zone, perhaps around the Bodensee; this would be necessary to connect the French Occupation Zone in Austria.

To form states in that - first we have the Saarland, no getting around that really; as for the rest, in line with French thinking at the time (keeping the Germans down by forming many states), create perhaps four states in the French Occupation Zone. Let's call them:
- Baden (incl. Hohenzollern)
- Pfalz (incl. Kurpfalz east of the Rhine)
- Rhineland (Rheinhessen and Hunsrück areas)
Perhaps add the Trier/Saarburg area to Saarland, doubling its size. Probably split Baden into two parts.

Now for the American Zone. The US liked big, economically viable states (originally: Bayern, Hessen, Württemberg-Baden). Not much to change there - Bayern and Hessen would be there to stay. Perhaps Bavarian Swabia would be switched over to Württemberg. Franconia as a fourth state would be possible, but in my opinion unlikely. If created, it might include some minor territory in the upper Main area currently part of Baden-Württemberg, around Wertheim.

In the British zone... As they would gain the Koblenz area from the French, perhaps the American high sea port at Bremen would gain a Hinterland area carved out of Niedersachsen. I.e. perhaps the old Oldenburg area up west to the border of the Netherlands. The Osnabrück area could be turned over to Northrhine-Westphalia, while the east of Niedersachsen, perhaps including parts of Northrhine-Westphalia (around Minden/Bielefeld), would remain its own state. Potentially Northrhine-Westphalia could then be split into two states. Hamburg might be included into Schleswig-Holstein.

Not gonna go into the East :rolleyes:

Sooo... how about this for West Germany, with a few further adaptions from the above (colors denote zone):
west-germany.jpg

Longterm, we might have some mergers... say Saarland with Rhine-Hunsrück (north), Palatinate and Baden; Baden-Hohenzollern down south with Württemberg (language-wise they're far closer!), maybe Schleswig-Holstein merging with Bremen-Oldenburg to form a coastal state...

west-germany.jpg
 
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