Manhattan Project Starts In 1934

Science is an iterative process of experiments. Science is also a process that depends on intuition and deduction to a remarkable degree. Both these factors mean that science is much cheaper when it is slower than it is in a crash program.
Let us consider fission. In OTL Fermi understood Pontecorvo's strange results as being from slow neutron absorbtion instead of fast neutron absorbtion, but misunderstood it as transmutation of U238 to Np239, which it was, but not also as U235 to various fission products.
Noddack suggested fission as well as transmutation to explain the chemistry results of the resulting products. Noddack could not perform the experiments to confirm this because she did not have a neutron source. At that time, neutrons were produced by expensive radium irradiating beryllium with fast neutrons.
The experiment was performed and it took about half an hour to confirm that it was fission from the massive recoil energy released as compared to the much less energetic absorbtion process. Let's assume as our POD that someone in America paid for this experiment as a speculation in technology for generating energy. He met somebody on a train and fell into conversation, perhaps.
So he quietly buys up uranium byproducts from radium manufacture (available as sodium uranate on very reasonable terms) and stockpiles them, and meanwhile starts funding the experiments on neutron absorbtion measurements and isotope separation that the Manhattan Project funded, but slower and cheaper.
For instance, Liquid Thermal Diffusion, Electro Magnetic Separation, and Centrifugal Separation were all taking place at American universities in this period. Gas Pressure Diffusion was still only in Germany. Other schemes hadn't yet been proposed.
When 1939 rolls around and WWII starts, we know that U235 is the fissionable material, we know that we can separate it in LTD plants and upgrade it in EMS plants, and that we will get a fast fission bomb out of it if we have enough U235.
We also know that centrifugal separation will be cheap enough to build power reactors, but we can't build centrifuges stable and fast enough at this time. No semiconductors yet, and vacuum tubes aren't reliable enough. When the vacuum tube burns out the centrifuge is no longer being stabilised and more or less explodes. So uranium is still too expensive to compete with coal, as in OTL.
We still don't know about plutonium separation, we don't know about Wigner distortion of the graphite lattice, we don't know about fusion implosion processes, we don't know how to make a separation membrane for Gas Pressure Diffusion, we don't know a reasonable separation process for plutonium or any of that.
We do know how to make a bomb. And Germany has just invaded Poland.
 
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Remote

Very, very remote possibility. The only thing that got us interested was the letter that Einstein wrote FDR and the only reason that he wrote it was that Germany was getting agressive.

If your scenario came about I can see a diffusion of knowledge going to be a big problem. The physicists didn't start shutting down paper publications until the government had them do so when the Manhattan Project started. If it happened the way that you outlined than there would be a good chance that the Nazis would be on the same level as us.
 

hammo1j

Donor
OTL we can take 1939 Einstein letter or 1941 Full scale effort as being the start of Manhattan. Taking 1939 that puts YTL as 5 years ahead giving 1940 as when bomb available. Modified B17 will also be quite capable of carrying the bomb but not over the distance of B29.

Possibly Japanese become aware of existence of bomb and do not attack. German, Soviet, Japanese and UK atomic bomb projects advanced by say 3 years giving estimated delivery 1943. But some will have better access to materials and knowledge.

US can quite simply stay out of any war, or does it use its nuclear monopoly to shape the world while it has the chance or risk later attacks from belligerent nations like Germany?
 
Positing a possible US bomb by 1939 is a pretty big butterfly. I would guess that other nations are likely in the hunt for an A-bomb as well, as it would be hard to keep something like this under wraps in peacetime.

Hitler won't invade Poland if feels that the Western powers might have a bomb in a year or two IMO.
 
hammo1j said:
OTL we can take 1939 Einstein letter or 1941 Full scale effort as being the start of Manhattan. Taking 1939 that puts YTL as 5 years ahead giving 1940 as when bomb available. Modified B17 will also be quite capable of carrying the bomb but not over the distance of B29.
Without it being obvious that Hitler is a real threat, the project won't have enough funding to go at that speed. The US might be able to get the bomb in '43, but before that is unlikely.
 
Don't forget

Hitler won't invade Poland if feels that the Western powers might have a bomb in a year or two IMO.

Don't forget that one of the big reasons that the Germans were behind on the A-bomb was that it was regarded as Jewish Science. So it didn't fit into his worldview so he disregarded it.
 
Assuming that you somehow rearrange history so that the US can field a bomb in 1939, one of the knock-on effects that you won't be able to erase is solid, believable intelligence on the project seeping out to other great powers.


Hitler won't chance an invasion of Poland in this scenario, not until he has his own deterrent at any rate.
 

hammo1j

Donor
Have to say that the Manhatten Project managed to stay majorly secret.

Always thought that nuclear war meant the death of mankind but AH has taught me otherwise. They are only big conventional bombs.

Someone tell me about the dirty bomb though. It would screw us bad but it would not kill us a la Dr Strangelove. Am I right.

Or maybe Sellars et al did a good job
 
hammo1j said:
They are only big conventional bombs.
They are much more than that. If a fullscale nuclear war erupted in, say, 1956 then most of the World's heavily populated areas would be completely wiped out.
 
Nah, my ATL postulated that the bomb project started earlier and slower/less expensively. The project doesn't start spending it's second ten million until 1939 and the construction of the LTD plants at Trail. For the shorter range from Britain to the Ruhr a Mosquito will carry it, because they have had more time to work on the implosion method and it only weighs a ton. The German nightfighters weren't as well developed as they were later.
Interestingly, the total cost is lower because we avoid the other methods used as back ups.
You know, if we used the bomb on Germany in December of 1941, the Russians would be fighting the Germans outside Moscow when the German government fell. We are looking at the opportunity to redesign Europe without having to worry about the Russians. The Germans hadn't slaughtered all their Russian prisoners yet and we could have gotten a good 'Vlasovs' army out of them and conquered Russia too if we hit Germany before the Russians pushed them back from Moscow.
 

hammo1j

Donor
wkwillis

I don't think it would be as simple as dropping a few bombs and then the Nazis would surrender. See thread WI we had the bomb in 1943.

My conclusion from that one was that the best use for a bomb might be to blast a hole in the defensive line prior to invasion.
 
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