Manchu Rising: An Alternate Account of the History of Modern Man

A comet getting close to earth doesn't butterfly away the Manchus.

I think it would if it was that far back. The Manchu weren't even called the Manchu until the early 17th century, before that they were the Jurchen. And considering just how volatile Asian steppe history is, and how many steppe peoples arose to do their dance and then get wiped out completely (Pechenegs, Cumans, Dzungars, etc), I think that the rise of the Manchu is something that would be very vulnerable to butterflies.

But I'm still curious as to how things are going.
 

Penelope

Banned
I think it would if it was that far back. The Manchu weren't even called the Manchu until the early 17th century, before that they were the Jurchen. And considering just how volatile Asian steppe history is, and how many steppe peoples arose to do their dance and then get wiped out completely (Pechenegs, Cumans, Dzungars, etc), I think that the rise of the Manchu is something that would be very vulnerable to butterflies.

But I'm still curious as to how things are going.

I do not see how comets pertain to the Manchu's. It's common sense that if there's a small comet, which, as I will reveal later, cannot be seen from East Asia, it doesn't effect much on Earth until it hits.

Oh, and the next part will deal with East Asian Cultures.
 
I do not see how comets pertain to the Manchu's. It's common sense that if there's a small comet, which, as I will reveal later, cannot be seen from East Asia, it doesn't effect much on Earth until it hits.

Oh, and the next part will deal with East Asian Cultures.

Scifiguy

If there's a comet in the skies it will be there for several weeks at least and will be seen by all, at least in the northern hemisphere, as the Earth turns.

Given that this comment has made at least 3 passes and presumably is on about a 400 year cycle it will be noticed by many in all civilisation. Also given the importance of comets as symbols of change or forthcoming disasters it is likely to have some effect. The butterflies may well balance out but wiping out a lot of the Germans seeking to cross the Rhine in 406AD is going to have a big impact that will echo across the centuries and around the world.

Steve
 

Penelope

Banned
Scifiguy

If there's a comet in the skies it will be there for several weeks at least and will be seen by all, at least in the northern hemisphere, as the Earth turns.

Given that this comment has made at least 3 passes and presumably is on about a 400 year cycle it will be noticed by many in all civilisation. Also given the importance of comets as symbols of change or forthcoming disasters it is likely to have some effect. The butterflies may well balance out but wiping out a lot of the Germans seeking to cross the Rhine in 406AD is going to have a big impact that will echo across the centuries and around the world.

Steve

Hmm, good point.

But in my eyes there's little that a failed Crossing of the Rhine could do to Manchu. But there is certainly a lot it could do to the Romans, obviously. :cool:
 
But in my eyes there's little that a failed Crossing of the Rhine could do to Manchu. But there is certainly a lot it could do to the Romans, obviously. :cool:

What? Of course it's goign to have an impact! No barbarian raping of Rome, Romans seeing the comet as a sign that they should crush the barbarians and cross the Rhine, a successful campaign and continued expansion.

I wouldn't be suprised if thats going to be the plot. I like Roman TLs.
 

Penelope

Banned
What? Of course it's goign to have an impact! No barbarian raping of Rome, Romans seeing the comet as a sign that they should crush the barbarians and cross the Rhine, a successful campaign and continued expansion.

I wouldn't be suprised if thats going to be the plot. I like Roman TLs.

What I meant was it's going to have a huge impact on Rome, but not the rise of the Manchu's.
 
What? Of course it's goign to have an impact! No barbarian raping of Rome, Romans seeing the comet as a sign that they should crush the barbarians and cross the Rhine, a successful campaign and continued expansion.

I wouldn't be suprised if thats going to be the plot. I like Roman TLs.

Todyo1798

I think Rome is too weak by this point, especially in the west for a major revival to be likely. However even if it only staggers on another generation or so that will have effects throughout the world by Manchu times.

To take a simple example. The Ming gained some aid in their attempts to hold back the Manchu invasion from the Jesuits who gave assistance on canon design. There may be a similar organisation in TTL but a lot of the individuals will be totally different and many nations will be dramatically affected by the destruction of so many of the German nations who OTL overrun western Europe.

Steve
 
What I meant was it's going to have a huge impact on Rome, but not the rise of the Manchu's.
If it has a large impact on Rome, it will certainly have an impact on China sooner or later. There's this thing called the Silk Road...Better off Rome equals richer Rome, which leads to more trade along the Silk Road, which leads to a richer China, which leads to more money available for larger anti-nomad expeditions, which could easily destroy the people that will become the Manchus.

If there's 1200+ years of butterflies at work, there are bound to be at least some differences. One of those differences could very well be a lack of Manchus.
 
I just like Roman empire TLs really, they're amusing.

Anyway about the romans staggering on, I think that a big f*ck-ass comet destroying a massive horde of barbarians will have a big psychological impact on the germanic tribes. They might be too scared to attack rome again incase the big firey thing comes back. It's just a thought.
 

Penelope

Banned
If it has a large impact on Rome, it will certainly have an impact on China sooner or later. There's this thing called the Silk Road...Better off Rome equals richer Rome, which leads to more trade along the Silk Road, which leads to a richer China, which leads to more money available for larger anti-nomad expeditions, which could easily destroy the people that will become the Manchus.

If there's 1200+ years of butterflies at work, there are bound to be at least some differences. One of those differences could very well be a lack of Manchus.

Okay, dude, your taking way to many assumptions against the premise of my TL. If you don't like it you don't have to read it, but don't be a critic if you have no solution, and are just here to make sure my TL doesn't get off the ground. I'm good with constructive criticism, but this is not constructive - it's just criticism in my eyes.
 
Okay, dude, your taking way to many assumptions against the premise of my TL. If you don't like it you don't have to read it, but don't be a critic if you have no solution, and are just here to make sure my TL doesn't get off the ground. I'm good with constructive criticism, but this is not constructive - it's just criticism in my eyes.
Point taken. I'm just saying that there are going to be a hell of a lot of butterflies in 1200 years. The steppes are home to a great many tribes that are now just footnotes in history. The slightest change, especially so far in the past, could easily send the Manchus to the same place.

It's well written so far, please continue.
 
It's a bit like starting a TL called 'Trotskys Rise' and starting out with an ahistorical volcanic eruption in the Pacific in the 1700s. The same objections would be raised.

But don't take it the wrong way. No one dislikes your TL, just pointing out a weak point. Don't take it to heart and keep going.
 

Penelope

Banned
It's a bit like starting a TL called 'Trotskys Rise' and starting out with an ahistorical volcanic eruption in the Pacific in the 1700s. The same objections would be raised.

But don't take it the wrong way. No one dislikes your TL, just pointing out a weak point. Don't take it to heart and keep going.

Good point. I will tell you that the Manchus arent coming in until much later.
 
I just realised that I never gave you any praise for this. The barbarians just annoyed me, but then agian maybe they wouldn't have destroyed Rome in the first place. Sorry about that.

It's an excellent TL so far, I don't think anyone has ever personified dieties before in an alt history. It's intresting to see how a change in mood could bring about the deaths of thousands.
 
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