Man-Made Hell: The History of the Great War and Beyond

Is this a good timeline?

  • Yes, it's great!

    Votes: 196 56.6%
  • Yes, it has a few flaws but is still good.

    Votes: 111 32.1%
  • No, it's very implausible.

    Votes: 28 8.1%
  • No, it's boring.

    Votes: 11 3.2%

  • Total voters
    346
Just checking out this timeline, and things look interesting! I didn't expect to see a version of history where the US allies with neither the Entente nor the CP, but stays neutral and secure.
Thanks! I decided to keep the US out of the Great War ITTL because if it were to enter it would more or less guarantee victory for whichever faction it joins, especially once you get further and further into the Great War to a point that many of the major belligerents have become exhausted and could easily be overwhelmed by the entry of another major belligerent against them.

To echo other posters, the Golden Twenties sound like a pretty good time for America (though let's not ignore the flaws, since there's no need for civil rights intellectuals unless African-Americans aren't getting their full rights). I'm also interested in the EU-like EACPS that seems to be forming.
Yeah, the Golden Twenties are definitely a lot better than OTL's Roaring Twenties, even if it does carry over a lot of historical flaws. The biggest issue at the moment is that the Democratic Party is becoming increasingly reactionary and tightening its grip on the Deep South, which means that any major national social reforms will start to increasingly face local resistance.

Given the mentions of a "Special Relationship" between the US and Japan in the future - maybe they'll end up on the same side in a later war? It's rather amusing to imagine some TTL dictatorship spewing propaganda about the Japanese, North Chinese, and Americans being "decadent peoples who'll collapse as soon as we strike them" a la the OTL Nazis, only to be confronted by TWO large, populous, and wealthy geopolitical entities who can turn out enough bullets, tanks, ships, and supplies to kill the enemy simply by dropping them all on his head.
The US and EACPS are increasingly powerful juggernauts that would easily turn the tides of the Great War should they ever intervene. Granted, no belligerent in the Great War is crazy enough to dare start a war with either power, knowing that it would basically spell doom for their efforts. They'd make for interesting opponents in proxy conflicts though.

Excellent post. There's a sense of foreboding, knowing that all the progressive reforms and achievements of the Johnson administration, as well as the Socialist surge, will likely face a backlash once the war arrives to North America, but it's still very nice to read. The East Asia section is... interesting, I suppose, but unfortunately I don't have much to say because of my lack of knowledge on the subject. It's fascinating to see the new Party System form and the Democrats slowly fall into irrelevance - speaking of which, have Liberals made state elections in the South competitive, and do any of them hold Southern seats in Congress?
Thanks, I'm glad that this latest update was an interesting read! As for your question, the Liberals are competitive in some parts of the Deep South, with them being most competitive in Tennessee, Texas, and Louisiana, however, for the most part the Democrats hold a monopoly over southern politics. This is in part because the Liberals are basically a splinter group of predominantly northern Democrats and therefore don't have too much influence in the south to begin with, but it's also because the Democratic Party has started to adopt a strategy of really honing in on maintaining a grip on the Deep South to hold some degree of relevance in American politics. They know that they're going to lose a number of races in the north to the Liberals and Republicans, so they're more invested into holding onto at least one region in order to remain a prominent force. Granted, there's not a lot you can do with the south alone, so the Democrats will have to start finding other ways to maintain and expand their power sooner or later.

HMMM.

What states specifically?
I haven't put a ton of thought into specific states, but I'd imagine that a lot of the Democratic-controlled Deep South prohibits trade with a number of Great War belligerents, both as a sort of protectionist program and to avoid financing the Third International. I kinda like the idea of Ohio prohibiting trade with the Third International but otherwise being pretty lenient, and I feel like Socialist-controlled Minnesota wouldn't be enthusiastic about war profiteering practices in general. Same goes for Indiana. Northern states than can really make a big profit off of war profiteering, such as much of the Mid-Atlantic region and Rust Belt would be pretty hands-off with trading policies, and I think it would be interesting to have the Great Plains realize that they can make a decent amount of money off of selling grain to nations stretched pretty thin when it comes to supplying food.

Honestly, I feel like such a candidacy would be pretty interesting in the Roaring Twenties, particularly given the increasingly conspicuous cultural and economic distance between the cities and the countryside that was prevalent during that era as well as the American government recusing itself from world affairs.
Now that you mention it, a sort of "municipal decentralist" candidate would definitely be fun to work with, and I'll keep that in mind going forward. Dever may or may not be elected president, but making him a senator would be pretty easy to do.

...I take it USA took a lot of immigrants fleeing the war in Europe, huh?

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if some conservatives in Congress (particularly from the Democratic Party) would call for placing restrictions on international brigade volunteering, all while conservative pundits and newspaper owners spin the issue into, quote, PRESIDENT JOHNSON AND HIS RED COHORTS SENDING AMERICAN BOYS TO THEIR DEATHS.
Yeah, a lot of immigrants are coming in from Europe. With that being said, however, leaving Europe is becoming an increasingly difficult thing. The French Commune, which is stretched really thin on manpower as it is, has banned emigration altogether (that doesn't stop people from leaving, but immigrants arriving from France in the US have become increasingly rare as a consequence) and just about all belligerents heavily discourage emigration. I'd imagine that a lot of immigrants from occupied territory, where there's a much bigger incentive to get out and laws and anti-emigration campaigns are a lot more ambiguous, arrive in the US, which means that by the 1920s the United States already has a number of large Belgian, Polish, Serbian, and Ukrainian communities among others. I also think it would be ironic to have illegal immigration from Canada (and by extension the wider British Empire-in-exile) cause American conservatives ITTL to call for upping Canadian border security.

As for regulations on the International Brigade volunteers, yeah, a number of conservatives have supported measures to prevent the formation of American volunteer forces, but they have obviously been unsuccessful. I think it would actually be pretty interesting if that caused the powers of the Second Amendment to be called into question a lot earlier ITTL, with Republicans, Liberals, and Socialists all arguing that prohibiting the creation of volunteer militias is a violation of Second Amendment rights.

Did any Europeans settle down in North China?
Probably a few, particularly wealthy Europeans that were already living in that area via nearby colonies or the legation cities, but European immigration to North China or East Asia in general would be pretty rare due to the distance from Europe and East Asia. Immigration to the United States would obviously be a lot more practical for Europeans, and the only European nation that borders North China (Russia) would have the bulk of its immigrants to East Asia settle down in the RDFR instead. I'd imagine that a number of Americans, particularly richer ones, would move to North China and Japan though.
 
Now that you mention it, a sort of "municipal decentralist" candidate would definitely be fun to work with, and I'll keep that in mind going forward. Dever may or may not be elected president, but making him a senator would be pretty easy to do.

"Trade with Great War belligerents is a state-by-state matter" is a good start for such a candidacy!
 
Hmm, I predict that the (imminent) and of Phase 2 of the war will be one catalyst of the American collapse. Phase three will then largely surround the 2nd American Civil war, where the Entente, Internationale, and possible remnants of Germany's faction will all intervene. Meanwhile, Japan will help the remnants of the liberal government reconquer the country from the west, while trying to avoid getting drawn into the Great War outright themselves.

(In the extreme case, there might be a falling-out between Brazil and the rest of the Entente, with Brazil supporting Pelley's Holy Realm while the Empire supports some other faction (a coup by MacArthur maybe? What has MacArthur been up to?).

At this point the only thing in the "Glimpse Into the Future I" post that I don't have a clue about is the German invasion of the Belgian Congo. I have no idea what will ultimately trigger that.
 
German invasion of the Belgian Congo.
Would the Germans still survive long enough, though? That may be the Empire's last hurrah as they are now being increasingly grind down by Soviet tanks.

Otherwise, I doubt that the end of Phase 2 would be the definitive end of war in Europe. It wouldn't really be the great war without that front. If anything, it would just be the start of anti-war upheavals that would affect all sides (maybe except the necessarily ultra-patriotic Soviets and French, at least JUST the latter of them) that would result to Germany's scorched earth retreat from Eastern Europe and the final withdrawal of the Entente from the theatre due to anti-government upheaval in Brazil. There won't really be a continuation of the European war without Fascist Germany.

That along with the American Civil war from all the returning Red and forming Holy brigades and the war with South China. Anyways, what has already happened with South China?
 
Yeah, a lot of immigrants are coming in from Europe. With that being said, however, leaving Europe is becoming an increasingly difficult thing. The French Commune, which is stretched really thin on manpower as it is, has banned emigration altogether (that doesn't stop people from leaving, but immigrants arriving from France in the US have become increasingly rare as a consequence) and just about all belligerents heavily discourage emigration. I'd imagine that a lot of immigrants from occupied territory, where there's a much bigger incentive to get out and laws and anti-emigration campaigns are a lot more ambiguous, arrive in the US, which means that by the 1920s the United States already has a number of large Belgian, Polish, Serbian, and Ukrainian communities among others. I also think it would be ironic to have illegal immigration from Canada (and by extension the wider British Empire-in-exile) cause American conservatives ITTL to call for upping Canadian border security.

I suppose some Democrats would latch on quickly to the issue of immigration, particularly since the Northern Catholic-dominated wing split off... though it's unlikely that rallying against immigrants would help Southern populists in the long run.

Also, I know that it might be offset by the coming war, but the larger amount of immigrants would seriously affect the 1930 Census.
 
@ETGalaxy, I can't help but ask a question regarding the lack of a certain detail - namely, the lack of a Ku Klux Klan. Does D. W. Griffith not adapt The Clansman by Thomas Dixon Jr. in this TL?
 
@ETGalaxy, I can't help but ask a question regarding the lack of a certain detail - namely, the lack of a Ku Klux Klan. Does D. W. Griffith not adapt The Clansman by Thomas Dixon Jr. in this TL?
The main reason I haven’t mentioned the KKK is just that it’s a particularly gross and creepy group to write about in detail in my opinion (that, and it just didn’t really fit into the events I covered in this chapter), but they are definitely a less influential group ITTL. “Birth of a Nation” still exists, but with the US in general being more socially progressive than OTL large radical white supremacy movements have little traction outside of the Deep South.
 
The main reason I haven’t mentioned the KKK is just that it’s a particularly gross and creepy group to write about in detail in my opinion (that, and it just didn’t really fit into the events I covered in this chapter), but they are definitely a less influential group ITTL. “Birth of a Nation” still exists, but with the US in general being more socially progressive than OTL large radical white supremacy movements have little traction outside of the Deep South.

Okay. I understand why you wouldn't want to write about them and that's okay by me.

That said, you'd think they would be rather more, uh, zealous, given this very socially progressive nature of the US, the Northern Democrat backstabbing and the large numbers of immigrants from European warzones who are, statistically speaking, unlikely to be Protestant.

Here’s a map of the 1924 US presidential election. I might make a Wikipedia box for this sooner or later.

View attachment 565536

I know this isn't supposed to be entirely realistic, but Al Smith winning the Upper South and not Massachusetts and Rhode Island still rather bugs me. :coldsweat:
 
That said, you'd think they would be rather more, uh, zealous, given this very socially progressive nature of the US, the Northern Democrat backstabbing and the large numbers of immigrants from European warzones who are, statistically speaking, unlikely to be Protestant.
I agree. The point of the Klan was white supremacy, and with how well the current American government is doing to remove it you'd think the Klan would be very active. And given it's been hinted there is going to be a horrific reactionary uprising in the South anyway, it would make sense for the KKK to be a large factor.
 
Wild Guess: With the current decline of conservatism in America, I can't really see them being a major independent force, at least early on. Instead, they may collaborate with the government and the Entente to stamp out those pesky Socialist brigades? That would result to the Socialist government of Progressive Mexico (America then ruled by the progressives may be disinterested in fucking up the Mexican left ITTL) coming in in favour of their brethren and the EACPS turning the war into a near-Pyrrhic government victory whose the social progress of the 20's were completely lost. With the immigrants being associated with Socialism, they would form, along with the blacks, the underclass of what would be the ultra-WASP supremacist America.

And with the war just being 10-15 years short at most, I think that's sufficient enough for a proletariat/rust belt and conservative/coastal war.
 
Interlude Nine: Central Powers Poster and the Flags of India and Indochina
Hello everyone! I just finished up the latest poster for the factions in MMH, with this one being for the Central Powers. Pretty happy with the result, although I personally think the Third International poster looks better.

Central Powers Poster-MMH.png

Speaking of the Third International posters, here are the flags for the Indian Union and the Democratic Union of Indochina respectively that I used for said poster:

Flag of the Indian Union-MMH.png


Flag of Indochina-MMH.png
 
Oh boy, I'm definitely going to look forward to seeing what's going on in Austria-Hungary, because I'm sure that a decade of warfare has done really good things for ethnic tensions in the country.
 

Monitor

Donor
The flag used for Germany is weird. It is no real flag. The nearest it comes to an existing one is the war flag of the German empire. But it is not even that for a multitude of reasons (the cross should be nearer to a Nordic one, and in that Circle, there should be the prussian eagle (or however it is truly called). Something that is a part of the war flag, and could be used here if you want to use the iron cross, is the German empires flag with that cross in the middle. It was at least part of a flag this way.

EDIT: it looks like you looked at how games often represent the Nazi-flag (to make it legal in places like Germany) and changed the colors. But even there, the center of the cross is not in the middle.
 

David Flin

Gone Fishin'
I actually have several PODs in mind but here's the current list of the ones thus far.

  • Giovanni Giolitti never resigns from his position as prime minister of Italy in 1914. This consequentially leads to Italian neutrality, at least for awhile.

  • The Great War manages to stay out of Africa, that is aside from the occasional border skirmishes. I actually forgot about this POD when writing the chapter, but I'll be sure to mention it in the next chapter.

  • Japan never sends the Twenty-One Demands to China thanks to cooler heads winning out due to European backing. Japan only controls former German bases in China and has expanded its sphere of influence in Manchuria instead.

  • Without Italy entering the Great War Germany and Austria-Hungary don't have to send any soldiers to fight the Italians. This doesn't do much from Germany, only a few more regiments and resources for their other front lines, however, Austria-Hungary is able to actually fend of the Russians, so no Brusilov Offensive.

  • Because the Brusilov Offensive never occurs Romania never joins the Great War. Now poor Greece is all alone in the Balkans fighting the Austrians and Bulgarians.

Are you going to do anything to stave off starvation in Germany?

OTL, the number of deaths by lack of food was rising exponentially, food production collapsed, and distribution of food was essentially non-existent.

By mid-1918 OTL, Germany was on the brink of collapse; food riots were endemic, and diseases from malnourishment were rampant.
 
The flag used for Germany is weird. It is no real flag. The nearest it comes to an existing one is the war flag of the German empire. But it is not even that for a multitude of reasons (the cross should be nearer to a Nordic one, and in that Circle, there should be the prussian eagle (or however it is truly called). Something that is a part of the war flag, and could be used here if you want to use the iron cross, is the German empires flag with that cross in the middle. It was at least part of a flag this way.

EDIT: it looks like you looked at how games often represent the Nazi-flag (to make it legal in places like Germany) and changed the colors. But even there, the center of the cross is not in the middle.
It should be noted that the German Empire from WWI is no longer a thing. It was overthrown and replaced by the fascist German Heilsreich in the 1920s, which uses the flag seen on the poster as its official flag. You're right to point out that the inspiration for this flag comes from OTL's Imperial war flag.

Are you going to do anything to stave off starvation in Germany?

OTL, the number of deaths by lack of food was rising exponentially, food production collapsed, and distribution of food was essentially non-existent.

By mid-1918 OTL, Germany was on the brink of collapse; food riots were endemic, and diseases from malnourishment were rampant.
I think I might have mentioned this in a prior update, but Germany has been able to stave off total starvation due to the extraction of resources from its puppet states in eastern Europe. Of course, given that these puppet states are now being invaded by the Soviets, they're a much less reliable source of food going forward, but due to the fall of the United Kingdom into civil war there is no blockade in the North Sea anymore, not to mention that neutral powers (primarily the United States) are willing to trade with the Germans.
 
You know I just came to the grim realization that in-universe there probably aren't many surviving stories of the early parts of the war, especially the Western Front and especially on the French side, owing to most people who might have stories dying to the war before they can write any memoirs. Well, at least there will be a few with crippling but non-fatal injuries...

Also JRR Tolkien is probably dead. What fun.
 
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