Malê Rising

The update is at post 6293.

Nice little slice-of-life there. I hadn't really thought of the way Evan's Nigeria would effect popular culture ITTL; it's probably one of the default "ancient" settings of world fiction.
I imagine that even modern fiction will hold on to the mythology long after the historians have let go; movies and books will probably nod to an Egyptian connection even in 2015, much as the way you have a divide now between "dark age" and "chivalric" Arthurian tales.

The Nigeria theory was controversial and politicized from the beginning, but it was one of the accepted historiographies of West Africa ITTL until about 1950, and its romance captured the popular imagination. So yes, there would be lots of costume dramas, and some allusions to Egyptian roots (possibly as secret history, or through means more subtle than exiles founding a civilization) would certainly continue after Evans' work is debunked.

Actually, I'd love to see an excerpt of some huge epic costume drama set there, because as we all know Jonathan you have so little to do writing this timeline unless your readers give you requests....

It would probably look like this or this (the setting, but, unfortunately, no costume Drama). ;)

Most of the costume dramas probably won't look like that - the majority of early ones, at least, would look Egyptian with a few African trimmings. The modern ones might make an effort to look more African, as would the early twentieth-century ones that fall on the Africanist side of the political spectrum, but the movies that define the genre - the ones that are equivalent to the classic gladiator films of OTL - would be New Kingdom Egypt on the Niger, albeit with Nok statuary and some African cultural traits to show how long the "Nigerian" civilization has been isolated.

An excerpt of a costume drama... hmmm. Maybe that, or maybe something related.

London in 1978 is selling beer in metric measurements? The world truly has changed. :p

Dang socialists.

Nice to see the lesbian couple in London in 1978. I mean, the OTL city wasn't doing so well in that year, it seems much more vibrant ITTL.

There's a backdrop of economic anxiety, though - not Winter of Discontent-level, but the dislocation that comes from recession, rising industrial automation, and the developed world's transition from a manufacturing-oriented economy to one centered on services and information. The blowback is heavy in places: the 1970s and 80s are a crisis of internationalism, and writing this update helped me think through some of what was happening.

And just when I thought this timeline didn't get anymore awesome.... :D

There are two possible explanations to this sentence:

1) Laila Abacar has a great sense of humour, or...

2) Islam, in the Malê Rising world's 1985, has reached a level of social progressivism similar to that of Wicca in 2015.

It's the first, obviously. Ilorin is liberal enough about such matters by 1980s standards - cultural tolerance is hardwired into the national DNA and the Congo fever epidemic has brought a certain cautious acceptance of "Turkish marriages," so they don't care what people do in private - but it's still not something anyone talks about too loudly. And no qadi, even the most liberal, would recognize plural marriage for women - most of the energy has gone toward curtailing it for men.

There is a way that two women and a man could form a perfectly legal family - technically, the man would have two wives, and the women's marriage to each other would be unofficial. Even that would probably be a bit radical by the standards of 1985, and not something people would do openly.

Pointed jokes, though, are another story. Laila does have a lot of her Aunt Funmi in her, including the habit of mocking convention.

Just caught up and really like this. Got any moon-music for us yet? ;)

Thanks and great to see you here! No moon music yet, but there's always this.

Congratulations JE on Male Rising on yet another Turtledove :D !

And thanks again to everyone who voted for it.
 
And if people don't know, there's the Best TL poll in Non-Pol Chat (which features Male Rising)!

Nice update, by the way! Very different London we have- and very interesting that, for all that has happened, the Abacars still go to London to get educated!
 
Lovely update! Once the whole thing is done I should reread the Abacar parts as one story, they have the most awesome characters/stories.

The Turtledove voting thread is here by the way, Mâle Rising is currently in second.
 
Cultural interlude: fantasies of a fantasy


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Nnamdi Okere, “100 Years of Nigeria in Film,” Cinema Magazine (Dec. 2008)

Out of all the favorite settings for premodern costume dramas, Arthur John Evans’ Nigeria [1] is the only one that never truly existed. Of course it’s common for period pieces to be based on obsolete knowledge or to take liberties with history – the peaceful matriarchal Minoans or otherworldly Mayans that populated the cinema of the 1960s and 70s no longer reflect the archaeological consensus, and the popular Vedic Indian epics of the 1920s through 50s were always four parts myth – but there were civilizations that corresponded at least roughly to the ones in the movies. For Nigeria, this isn’t the case. There is unmistakable evidence of an early Iron Age culture that bears the Nigerian name to this day (although archaeologists prefer “Taruga”), but the vast Egyptian-derived empire that featured in early twentieth-century historiography has been proven to be Evans’ fantasy.

For filmmakers, this wasn’t necessarily a bad thing. The scanty archaeological evidence for Nigeria meant that they had few constraints in painting the backdrop. Some mix of New Kingdom or Third Intermediate-period Egypt and West Africa was taken for granted, but the proportion of each, and the particular traits that each contributed, was open to the imagination. The fact that Evans’ Nigeria was a lost world, and therefore one that might have strayed far from classical Egyptian culture, only made the artistic license broader. Critic Simon Francis referred to Nigerian costume epics as “pharaohs and phantasms,” and there was sometimes little more than that to guide the set designers in their work.

To some extent, the Nigerian dramas were expressions of the directors’ attitude toward Africa and the ancient world. A director who bought into the casual racism of the time might depict a very thinly diluted Egypt with palaces, temples and obelisks straight out of the Eighteenth Dynasty, with a light-skinned ruling class and African cultural traits confined to backward villages. The same setting, in the hands of an African filmmaker, would have a far stronger West African aesthetic (albeit with elements of Egyptian design), a religion and system of government extrapolated backward from the precolonial Niger Valley, and sumptuously dressed Yoruba or Igbo actors playing the parts of royalty and nobles.

There was also a place between the extremes. That there was something African about Nigeria could hardly be denied; although Evans had identified Egyptian features in the statuary and artifacts he studied, their style was different from anything that had been found in Egyptian palaces or tombs. So even the films that reflected European and American racial assumptions would derive religious artifacts and styles of clothing from the statues, and would often include other African elements to emphasize the lost-world setting. It was Nigerian costume dramas that brought the Nsibidi symbols of the Igbo and the Adinkra of the Akan, which appeared as hieroglyphics and holy symbols on “Nigerian” temples, to the attention of mass audiences in Europe and the United States. Masks and ceremonial costume were another common African ingredient, often reflecting a West African-Egyptian fusion…

… By 1950, with few serious archaeologists still regarding Evans’ theory as factual, the Nigerian epic had to adapt. The richly imagined scenes of horse-cult parades, black kings in gilded chariots and cities rising above tropical landscapes could no longer claim to represent history in the way Roman or Abbasid epics did. Instead, the directors who continued to make Nigerian films took one of two paths: some accepted Evans’ fantasy as fantasy and approached it on that basis, while others adopted a much-diluted Nigeria theory in which Egyptian influence was muted and came from trade or legend.

The former, now free of all constraints, devised settings which were even more extravagant than the classic Nigerian epics and which included elements from many cultures and historical periods; Afurika (Tokyo, 1985) even had a city with gardens and baths designed by a visiting Jomon trader. The latter showed much more naturalistic and historically accurate Iron Age West African landscapes with Egyptian travelers and cultural fragments to add mystery – the kind of mystery that pop history sometimes still insists is there. Lately there have been combinations of the two, exploring ancient Nigeria as a might-have-been world or secret history, and although long disproven, Evans’ ideas haven’t lost their ability to engender – or provide a sidelight on – political controversy.

This year marks the hundredth anniversary of the first Nigerian costume drama to appear on film. Picking the top movies of the genre is almost as controversial as the Nigeria theory itself: like most kinds of costume drama, Nigerian epics have rarely drawn critical acclaim, and fans from Africa and Europe often disagree about which ones deserve top billing. In an effort to achieve balance, and in honor of the imaginary country that has captured so much imagination, I offer this humble list:

But the River Floods (Baghdad, 1908): The first movie to feature Nigeria was one of the absurdist films that characterized Ottoman cinema between the Great War and the revolution of 1911, and fittingly enough, it was made by a director who considered Evans’ theory ridiculous. Yossef Kedouri, the Baghdadi Jew who would later make a career filming Abbasid and Sumerian epics, cut his teeth with this story of an Egyptian noble who gets lost while on a diplomatic mission far to the south. Arriving at the Niger, he finds a city and culture that bear a superficial resemblance to Egypt, and becomes progressively more bewildered when no one acts as he expects. By the end of the movie, the West Africans have made him an ironic god, alternately worshipped for his holy madness and blamed for everything that goes wrong.

The Fall of Nigeria (San Diego, 1912): This film inaugurated many of the features that would go on to become clichés of the genre, and its “New Kingdom in the jungle” set would inspire many imitators. The Nigerian nobility is depicted as white, but unusually for American films outside South Carolina at this time, many characters including priests and army officers are played by black actors. The Fall depicts Nigeria as a culturally decadent society cut off from the world for centuries, in which a priestly clan keeps Egyptian traditions alive while fighting for survival in a deadly court and contending with epidemics and barbarian invasions.

The Fifty Cowries (Lagos, 1915): The product of a West African film industry that was still in the process of formation, The Fifty Cowries proved that African as well as European filmmakers found the idea of an ancient African empire appealing. Where The Fall had shown a decadent Nigeria, this film displays the empire at its imagined height: a vast city of Egyptian stone and proto-Yoruba wood, pyramids, and a riotous syncretic religion of animal-headed gods and masked ancestors. With this society as backdrop, the movie chronicles a young man’s journey up the Niger as he seeks the wealth to pay bride-price for his beloved, and his encounters with allies and enemies from Egypt and beyond.

Rising on the Niger (Charleston, 1918): This was one of the last films produced by the State House Press during its era of artistic dominance, and its story of a slave revolt against cruel and decadent Egyptian conquerors is an obvious allegory of South Carolina’s own Great Rising. Gripping politics, forbidden love and epic battle scenes combine to lift Rising above its propagandistic theme, and the hero, a prophetic horseman whose costume recalls the famous equestrian statue, is fully realized enough to escape the script.

Guardians of Africa (London, 1919): This product of the Imperial era, filmed amid the Indian War of Independence and civil unrest in West Africa, is, as might be expected, stunningly racist. The African characters are uniformly portrayed as subhuman, brutal and lascivious in a way that is often compared to the pro-Redeemer epic Battle for a People. But at the same time, it is a work of cinematic genius, beautifully shot and featuring unprecedented techniques and effects. Many people who saw the film’s premiere reportedly believed that it had been shot on location, and even modern viewers find it visually stunning despite the disturbing story.

The Sacred Colt (London, 1930): Stop someone on the street and ask him to name a Nigerian costume epic, and they’d most likely name this one. Director Michael Cooper, who served in the African Civil Service for twenty years before resigning in protest against the Imperial Party, created a visually Egyptian but culturally African world that defines the genre for many. The film tells the story of an ordinary family cast into the priesthood and nobility when their colt is deemed a foal of the horse-god. The director’s experience in Africa and knowledge of Egypt shows in the movie’s vividly realized pageantry.

Queen of the River (Paris, 1941): This is another work created by a skeptic of Evans’ theories, an adaptation of Funmilayo Abacar’s play of the same name. It tells the story of an African merchant and musician who makes the difficult journey to Egypt and marries Queen Hatshepsut’s daughter Merytre. They returns to find the warring states of the Niger in the grip of evil Egyptian and African counselors, and set out to overthrow them and reunite the Nigerian peoples. Their story is an allegory of colonialism and contemporary Niger Valley federalism, but as with Rising, rich characterization, the pharaonic landscape and classical Hausa-influenced songs and ceremonies make it far more than a political tract.

The Two Lands (Berlin, 1946): This big-budget epic, often considered the last of the Golden Age Nigerian dramas, centers on the founding of the empire. Unusually for the genre, the Egyptian founders are from the Old Kingdom rather than the New, and are nobles exiled during the collapse that followed the fall of the Sixth Dynasty. They reach the Niger after many adventures in dangerous lands, finding that it too is suffering from drought and civil war, and become rulers of the region with the aid of local allies. By the end of the film, they are losing their Egyptian ways, and it is heavily implied that their kingdom will fall and that the empire theorized by Evans will be built on its memory.

Mara, Daughter of the Niger (San Diego, 1955): This young adult movie exemplifies the transitional period between the Golden Age and modern incarnations of the Nigerian genre. By the time Mara was made, Evans’ theories had been conclusively discredited, and that shows in the story and cinematography. The Egyptian influence is portrayed as remote, and the buildings and clothing are more African than any Nigerian epic previously made outside Africa. There is just enough Egyptian jewelry, writing and religious symbolism to add an air of ancient mystery to this story of a slave girl who is enlisted as a spy for a powerful courtier and who must risk her life for love and freedom.

The Most Ancient Days (Abomey, 1958): Dahomey’s “dancing revolution” of 1957 combined with the previous decade’s revival of classical music and dance to produce this film. Here, Nigeria is an African empire whose ruler has heard stories of Egypt and has enslaved the people in order to build monuments as great as the pharaohs’. The gods of Egypt, approving of the king’s actions, protect him against overthrow, and only by evoking a more powerful spirit of their own can the people win free. Much of the story is told through traditional musical narration, which also plays a part in reducing the tyrant’s defenses.

Nigerian Gold (San Diego, 1982): An unabashed lost-world fantasy, Nigerian Gold features a Nigerian empire that has survived into the nineteenth century and where Egyptian and West African design have merged into a style recognizable as neither. A traveler in search of legendary gold blunders into the empire, and after many swashbuckling adventures, rediscovers its history. At the end, after the explorer wins clear with the gold, it is learned that he is Evans, and that a Nigerian priestess' spell has distorted his memory into what will become his famous archaeological theory.

The Ancestors (Sokoto, 2008): A century after But The River Floods, this film returns the Nigerian genre to absurdism, albeit of a distinctly contemporary kind. A modern African is transported 3000 years back in time and cycles between three universes: the historical Iron Age, Evans’ Nigeria, and a world in which the region is dominated by an upper-Niger rice culture. In the process, he unwittingly puts the three in contact with each other, and spends the rest of the film trying to straighten out the political and cultural conflicts engendered by the contact. He is considered a divine being due to his ability to travel between worlds, but his attempts to use his divine authority are poorly thought out and fail spectacularly. The ending, in which he finally brokers an accidental peace, bears a passing resemblance to certain political events of the early twenty-first century…
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[1] See post 1023.
 
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The Ancestors (Sokoto, 2008): A century after But The River Floods, this film returns the Nigerian genre to absurdism, albeit of a distinctly contemporary kind. A modern African is transported 3000 years back in time and cycles between three universes: the historical Iron Age, Evans’ Nigeria, and a world in which the region is dominated by an upper-Niger rice culture. In the process, he unwittingly puts the three in contact with each other, and spends the rest of the film trying to straighten out the political and cultural conflicts engendered by the contact. He is considered a divine being due to his ability to travel between worlds, but his attempts to use his divine authority are poorly thought out and fail spectacularly. The ending, in which he finally brokers an accidental peace, bears a passing resemblance to certain political events of the early twenty-first century...

You're such a tease. :p

There are so many parallels and similarities between "Nigerian" epics and the Peplum film genre I doubt they're coincidental; however, the former genre seems to have gone the way of pulp instead - considered cheesy, dead in its original form, but subject to countless affectionate parodies and tributes because, what the hell, Nazis from the Moon and pharaohs from the Niger, despite being several shades of historically inaccurate, are entertaining. :D
 
Excellent!

The parallels to our own world's cinema history aren't overstated, but their presence is appreciated. I like the idea of there being a rich vein of Imperial-era art, technically masterful and aesthetically repulsive that succeeding generations of critics have to deal with.

One idle thought: ITTL, the equivalent of "Civilization" will surely have Nigeria as a playable people from the very first game.*





*I'm presuming there'll be an equivalent of "Civilization," bearing in mind TTL's utopian tinge.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
You know, when you can set "AH"

You know, when you can set "alternate history" within an "alternate history," that actually tracks well, you have the creativity award.;)

Nicely done.

Best,
 
Nigerian Gold (San Diego, 1982): An unabashed lost-world fantasy, Nigerian Gold features a Nigerian empire that has survived into the nineteenth century and where Egyptian and West African design have merged into a style recognizable as neither. A traveler in search of legendary gold blunders into the empire, and after many swashbuckling adventures, rediscovers its history. At the end, after the explorer wins clear with the gold, it is learned that he is Evans, and that a Nigerian priestess' spell has distorted his memory into what will become his famous archaeological theory.

There's the Indiana Jones expy! :p
 
Guardians of Africa is this time lines Birth of a Nation.

Nope, it's Battle for a People... but I do like the idea of having several Birth of a Nation-like movies made during the Imperial era, innovative masterpieces that also happen to be racist enough even a racist white settler of El Salvador or Natal would find them too racist. :D
 
Nice update, by the way! Very different London we have- and very interesting that, for all that has happened, the Abacars still go to London to get educated!

Lovely update! Once the whole thing is done I should reread the Abacar parts as one story, they have the most awesome characters/stories.

Thanks! By this time, Magdalen is a family tradition for the main branch of the Abacars (although both of Laila's parents were educated locally). The fact that Laila has a British grandmother doesn't hurt.

The Turtledove voting thread is here by the way, Mâle Rising is currently in second.

I'd be proud to come in second to A Blunted Sickle, or for that matter to Agent Lavender.

There are so many parallels and similarities between "Nigerian" epics and the Peplum film genre I doubt they're coincidental; however, the former genre seems to have gone the way of pulp instead - considered cheesy, dead in its original form, but subject to countless affectionate parodies and tributes because, what the hell, Nazis from the Moon and pharaohs from the Niger, despite being several shades of historically inaccurate, are entertaining. :D

The Nigerian dramas are somewhere between peplum and pulp: they were originally thought to be historically accurate (like, for instance, a movie that subscribed to one of the early Great Zimbabwe origin theories IOTL might be) and had story lines that were fun enough, and sometimes politically resonant enough, to survive the debunking of the theory on which they were founded. Most of them definitely fall in the B-movie category, and as the "author" of the update said, the critics never cared for them, but they're a guilty pleasure for a lot of people ITTL.

The parallels to our own world's cinema history aren't overstated, but their presence is appreciated. I like the idea of there being a rich vein of Imperial-era art, technically masterful and aesthetically repulsive that succeeding generations of critics have to deal with.

Guardians of Africa is this time lines Birth of a Nation.

Nope, it's Battle for a People... but I do like the idea of having several Birth of a Nation-like movies made during the Imperial era, innovative masterpieces that also happen to be racist enough even a racist white settler of El Salvador or Natal would find them too racist. :D

Moe Satyr is right: Battle for a People is TTL's closest analogue to Birth of a Nation, although it's a different movie (for one thing, it obviously isn't set in South Carolina). But Battle for a People and Guardians of Africa both fall into the same category as BOAN or Triumph of the Will: accomplished and innovative films created in the service of very dark politics. I don't doubt there are other examples of such art: I'd imagine, for instance, that Ma China put out some very good propaganda films.

There's the Indiana Jones expy! :p

I hadn't thought of that - I was thinking more of Rider Haggard - but you're right! Evans not only straddles the line between eminent archaeologist and crackpot historical theorist, but he's also TTL's Indy!

I take it "costume epic" means something like "period piece" ITTL?

Doesn't it IOTL? In any event, ITTL it's used as a catchall for historical period dramas, which are a diverse genre given that TTL's film industry is more widely distributed and everyone wants to see epics about their own country.

This needs something with alliteration, like "swords and sandals."

No idea what the equivalent would be in Maleverse.

Knives and Nigerians doesn't work...

"Pharaohs and phantasms" doesn't work either. Hmmm... palms and pharaohs? Floods and pharaohs? Ankhs and Africans?

One idle thought: ITTL, the equivalent of "Civilization" will surely have Nigeria as a playable people from the very first game.*

No, that'll be in the fantasy supplement, along with Atlantis. The original game might feature the historical *Nok culture - they'll know a lot more about Iron Age West Africa by that time than we do now.

Thanks for suggesting this update, BTW. This was a fun one.
 
Well, now we know where the TL's version of USA's "Hollywood" is--not so very far away...

I don't think we've been told that before though I might be forgetting a mention in passing long ago.

I'm not so sure that San Diego would work as well as being based somewhere in Los Angeles, but I've never spent much time in SD and don't know if it has as full or fuller potentials to reach locations that span the full gamut of scenes directors would want. Then again arguably neither does Los Angeles; American and to an extent world audiences simply got conditioned to accept the range of landscapes the accessible area did offer as icons for what they were meant to show, presumably here San Diego's repertoire will stand in for it. And of course even in just the USA presumably the domestic cinema does not get as utterly monopolized by "the studios;" it would be a question of whether there would be enough demand in a critical number of markets for alternatives to support rival movie houses that can survive while defying the various studio near-monopolies. OTL in the "Golden Age" of the studios, they worked by having business interest in the rival chains of movie theaters; one house in a given market would show only MGM, another only UA, another RKO productions and so forth. So having alternatives outside the OTL range would be a matter of scraping together enough audiences to support yet one more in enough markets.

I speculated on this a long time ago here, suggesting that as this USA differs from OTL in being somewhat less culturally centralized, with South Carolina setting the example of a region that defies the "mainstream" in a consistent and sustained way, giving aid and comfort to other regionalisms--a distinct Mormon culture in Utah say; Sequoyah going its own way; others talk about the Germans and other distinct European groups up in the Midwest, and so on. I'd suggest that within each region there tends to be local art traditions that support at least a sporadic diet of regional films, and that the houses that show these films tend to also from time to time host the idiosyncratic productions of other regions too; maybe the South Carolinians would have a taste for Mormon or Midwest German films, and maybe not, but I'm pretty sure they'd be interested in Sequoyan productions for instance. This in turn opens up more space for the kinds of "art films" and products of a dissenting political view that did exist to some extent OTL but here have an alternative outlet to the big studio chains. The regionalist houses that are strong in each region to some extent support each other, and offer a second or third chance for yet other alternative views that aren't necessarily based in a region but perhaps in a minority political view or something like that. In turn this bolsters the diversity of what the sort of big-city alternative cinema we did have OTL might show and increases the audiences and houses for alternative cinema there, and so there are many rival centers to "San Diego" that collectively might come close to outweighing the "mainstream" studios. These nevertheless remain "mainstream" in the sense that they are closer than the alternative stuff to OTL studio fare--which is to say, they hit a chord of general marketability that to some degree is a reduction to the least common denominator and that tend to reinforce the "comfort zone" of the dominant society. But competing with the alternatives that just won't go away or be actively suppressed as per OTL so easily, I suppose even the standard studio fare responds to their challenges and gets spiced up and tensioned to an extent, or goes all the more overboard with the comforting formula fare that is after its specialty.

I would imagine that really great films still manage to emerge from the studios from time to time; vice versa the alternative productions sometimes go viral and get admitted into the "studio" circle, and to an extent get coopted by San Diego.
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Meanwhile of course, world cinema as a whole is far less dominated by the American studios; I would expect a fair number of American films, both San Diego and alternative, do circulate around the world, the more or less Anglophone world especially. But they never get steamrollered the way Hollywood tended to do OTL, and so one of the things the "alternative" houses do show in the USA is a sampling of overseas productions as well. I daresay South Carolinians for instance would, in the "Golden Age" of the movies (here I suppose from the mid-1910s on into the 1940s) watch a whole lot of West African films, maybe some South African too, probably a lot of Indian stuff; arty city houses (more common, more widespread in smaller cities than OTL here) would show lots of French and German and Russian movies--indeed the post here implied that the Germans rival OTL Hollywood's dominance, and if the German films tend to suffer a bit of impediment in the USA generally due to being in German--well, that won't be any barrier at all to the people from this timeline's stronger German-American communities. More Americans will know German, or some of it anyway, than OTL; it probably won't supplant the status of France and French as the first instance of "foreign" that comes to mind in popular culture, but it will rival French anyway.

So the impression I get from the recurrence of "San Diego" in the list of movies in the post is, SD is pretty much the expy for Hollywood ITTL, but while "the industry" might dominated SD county quite as much as it does in LA OTL, it never dominated the world in the same way; it is much more in dialog and debate with many more centers than OTL.

I guess one reason I had an emotional reaction to this reveal is that I'm pretty much of a Los Angeles background myself, sort of anyway, and it is rather wrenching for me to visualize LA without the shaping of it that Hollywood theatrics gave it OTL. Even recalling that after all the magic pixie dust is being sprinkled not so very far away, still in Southern California anyway, doesn't comfort me much because I don't know SD very well. I do have one particular relative I can think of who would be thrilled perhaps to imagine it for me.
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It was pretty cute to see you manage to work your latest thing about African rice being yet another basis for earlier West African mighty civilizations into the last film too!:D

I gather that your connections to West Africa are such that you really want to drag the place onto the world stage in every era. And you know it well enough to see some pretty far-reaching possibilities.

With all these diverse options for West Africa reaching back deeper in time and having more weight in the dialog of world civilizations, I suppose you will pull them all together into a deep-time ATL rivaling "The Realm of Millions of Years" in its potential to totally revise all of know world history.:)

In particular, I wonder to what degree earlier and more extensive West African civilization will foster and support earlier and more extensive Atlantic seafaring by coastal peoples there, because if it is possible for a maritime people to be based in that region they'll be forced to learn a thing or two about mastering the grand sweep of Atlantic weather and currents--and thus sooner or later stumble upon Brazil, and more importantly have a hope of closing the loop and returning home, bringing the Western Hemisphere permanently into the West African known world. If the West African/South American exchange can be gradual enough, so that Old World diseases come in less overwhelmingly and suddenly, then perhaps for instance the Terra Prieta cultures of the Amazon region might survive and feed back their peculiar approach to agriculture to West Africa, leading to development of the central African Congo rainforest to parallel that of the Amazon--so in addition to a great and ancient West African civilizational constellation, there would be an associated and influenced tropical rainforest spectrum of civs spanning the Atlantic.

H. Rider Haggard indeed! There might be a whole bunch of cities in the jungle, and while some of them are "lost," others aren't, in any epoch after that.
 
The five Grand Tour missions would give humanity its first close-up photos of the outer planets and Persephone, identify almost a hundred moons, and lead to the first discovery of large objects beyond Neptune’s orbit.
Do you mean the moons of *Pluto? Because those are the only Kuiper Belt Objects your spacecraft will be able to see. But I can't imagine those moons being referred to that way...

Many of the pictures that came back from the Grand Tour probes’ cameras are still iconic, including the Commonwealth “family portrait” of the solar system and the distant image of Earth taken by the American probe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Portrait_%28Voyager%29

Not sure how 'iconic' a mosaic like that would be. I don't even remember seeing it at the time, and I've been a space geek since Gemini days....
 
Do you mean the moons of *Pluto? Because those are the only Kuiper Belt Objects your spacecraft will be able to see. But I can't imagine those moons being referred to that way...
.....

Considering how OTL astronomers don't even consider Pluto itself to be a "large object" either I too don't imagine this refers to Charon or any other moons Pluto may have.

I have to figure then, "large" means large. Neptune large or bigger!

I can see two ways offhand the probe might "see" them--or more precisely, one. By sheer chance it happens to pass close to one, close enough that despite its very deep space distance enough sunlight is reflected back so the probe's instruments can manage to see it--and this would of course be a long time after it passes Pluto's orbit, since if there were something large anywhere near Pluto/Persephone, astronomers in either TL would have noticed its gravitational perturbations on the planetoid by "now."

Or, speaking of perturbations, it is perturbations in the course of the probe itself that lead astronomers to look in the right place to get an image of said ice giant or bigger.

Finding one would imply there could be others.

If this is what Jonathan means it is probably the first time the TL has stepped beyond asserting anything not absolutely known already to OTL science. If so it is of course still a small and reasonable extrapolation; who knows just how much junk is creeping around out there?
 
Do you mean the moons of *Pluto? Because those are the only Kuiper Belt Objects your spacecraft will be able to see. But I can't imagine those moons being referred to that way...

Considering how OTL astronomers don't even consider Pluto itself to be a "large object" either I too don't imagine this refers to Charon or any other moons Pluto may have.

I have to figure then, "large" means large. Neptune large or bigger!

No, I meant Kuiper Belt objects. I wasn't assuming any planets unknown to science - I figured, apparently in error, that photos taken by the Grand Tour spacecraft as they passed the orbit of Neptune would reveal some moving dots that turned out to be large KBOs. If that wouldn't happen, I'm fine with forgetting about it.

Not sure how 'iconic' a mosaic like that would be. I don't even remember seeing it at the time, and I've been a space geek since Gemini days....

Iconic mainly because of what was written about it ITTL, like OTL's Pale Blue Dot.

I'll reply to post 6316 later - possibly tomorrow.
 
No, I meant Kuiper Belt objects. I wasn't assuming any planets unknown to science - I figured, apparently in error, that photos taken by the Grand Tour spacecraft as they passed the orbit of Neptune would reveal some moving dots that turned out to be large KBOs. If that wouldn't happen, I'm fine with forgetting about it.

Oh. I kind of mentioned this earlier, or I thought I did, but I guess it got caught up in talking about Persephone and the Moon and all that. Basically, spacecraft cameras are really small telescopes, so they aren't very good at detecting dim objects, which is what KBOs are. This is more than compensated in their normal use by getting very, very, very close to the target, so that the inverse-square law works in their favor compared to bigger, Earth-bound telescopes, but when looking for KBOs they don't really have any distance advantage, so they just end up being worse than Earth-based telescopes. Look at New Horizons for an example--it's only just now getting images better than Hubble's of Pluto, and Hubble isn't even a particularly big telescope. And when they were searching for a KBO to target with it after Pluto, it was all about Hubble and ground-based searches.

For what it's worth, I assumed this line meant that due to the Grand Tour missions there were more planet-focused observations at the time, so that some people noticed anomalous observations (there are precovery photographs of several of the larger ones dating back to the 1950s, though on the whole they were probably very close to the limit of what you could plausibly find with photographic plates and blink comparators) and determined that they were being caused by KBOs. And I think that astronomers would consider such objects large, and certainly different from the smaller comets and the like they were considering. The whole theory was much less worked out in the 1970s than today--in fact, the Kuiper belt itself, and its sibling the scattered disc were not even hypothesized until the 1980s, OTL!
 
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