Malê Rising

I was thinking more if there was an African equivalent to Muir or Pinchot; there is certainly an ancient tradition across Eurasia of young men proving themselves "in the wilderness" and I wonder if someone in the "African" arena of the Maleverse, given the leaps in national identity, economic development, etc over OTL might find Muir or Pinchot as inspiration - less "preserve the wilderness as a place to hunt big game" and more as a "preserve the wilderness as a moral imperative in its own right" sort of approach.

Hmmm. The Sahel is the canary in so many environmental coal mines that I suspect there would always be an element of "preserve our livelihood" in any conservation movement. Desertification, the development of the Sahara, the conflict between irrigation needs and the maintenance of Lake Chad - all these and other issues would have a major impact on the economy and daily life and would be framed primarily in those terms.

On the other hand, urbanization and mechanized agriculture would still give an impression that the frontier is closing and the wilderness is disappearing, which could lead to Muir's or Pinchot's kind of preservationism. And there would also be the Abacarist/Belloist stewardship ethic, which holds that God's creation is inherently worth preserving and that the natural world is to be enjoyed by humans. The Abacarist imamate is well aware of philosophy and political thought elsewhere in the world, and some of them might take the American conservationists as an inspiration - maybe ITTL, Muir would be cited in religious rulings.

I could actually see political commentators informally calling TTL's post-Westphalian Italy "lo spezzatino" (that a dish with meat cut into tiny pieces and cooked).

I like this - consider it canon, with "rifrangimento" as a somewhat more skeptical term.

"Risorgimento" mainly denotes the national awakening AND the process of unification, but the word does not carry the notion of unification inherently, so "inversimento" or some close variant thereof would imply something closer to "undoing of Italy" than just "reversal of unification". Note that ITTL Risorgimento has been more successful than IOTL (and more severley tested) and this precisely why I think that the resulting state can get away with far more leeway about local identites (OK, a lot of conflict in-between). Those who oppose the process might well use it, but it may be felt as carrying an extremely negative judgement about it.

Fair enough. I wasn't aware of that nuance, and with that taken into account, "inversimento" or anything like it wouldn't make sense as an all-purpose journalistic shorthand.

Still, I'd suppose that some Italians of a centralist mindset would view cultural and linguistic federalism as an undoing of Italy. I'd imagine that both the Legatum debates of the early 40s and the debates over broader autonomy in the 50s involved people shouting that the Risorgimento was being betrayed.

Also note that advocates of decentralization heavily used reference to the Medieval communal age, which was also a point of reference for the Risorgimento discourse. One of the most prominent Risorgimental intellectuals, Carlo Cattaneo, suggested exactly a devolved cantons federation as the best model for resurgent Italy in the 1840, and he likely would be revered as a positive example when this actually happens ITTL a century later.

Especially since analogies between the medieval communes and post-Westphalianism are being made all over Europe, and there's a widespread perception of returning to medieval concepts of sovereignty (albeit through an Enlightenment lens).

BTW, I know this has come up before, but it would seem that with regional Italian languages still in use, there would have to be a "Fusha Italian" for use by the government and national media. Would this be based on Tuscan as IOTL, or would it be more of a blend?
 

Deleted member 67076

Well, the dull years are the ones I don't write about. :p

I'm not sure what QBAM forma even is, but if you give me your email address, I can send you a copy of Analytical Engines' original file, which scales up pretty well.
Its the big map format you often see here. Using this map.
 
Its the big map format you often see here. Using this map.

But who will tell us:

1) Why is it called "Q-BAM"?

2) what is its purpose?

I don't particularly like the projection used for one thing. If the format includes the choice of central meridian than it is inflexible for AH; we ought to be able to see the world from many different perspectives.

Ideally I'd promote a standard where everyone uses equirectangular aka "Plan carré", in which features are mapped by a cartesian grid of latitude and longitude, and then we could use software such as NASA's G.Projector to replot it in whatever projection we like, shifting central viewpoints and scales at will.

in reality of course the level of detail necessary to zoom in on many AH storylines would make for gigantic file sizes for the equirectangular "base map" and I know that my computer can't handle such files using my version of G.Projector.

As far as I can tell, trying to promote the "Q-BAM" format seems to be trying (perhaps without realizing it) to narrow our perspectives to a Eurocentric, OTL-with-minor-tweaks-centric, viewpoint. How useful would Q-BAM be for Green Antarctica or Lands of Ice and Mice? For a Japan-centered timeline? Or Lands of Red and Gold?

It also seems to imply that the task of any AH storyteller is to invent a whole alternate planet Earth, and if they fall short of that the parts of the world they don't look at closely must default to OTL.

I mean, what is a "basemap" anyway? To me it suggests that it has all natural features of interest (rivers, lakes, topography) and AH people paint their varied societies and states over that. But none of the so-called "basemap" pages or "basemaps" people trot out ever seem to have much geographic detail. Instead there's lots of political borders--the very features one would think would be completely butterflied away in an ATL!:rolleyes:

I can see that it would be very useful indeed to have very detailed maps of the political and social lay of the land OTL in every say half-century from the beginnings of recorded history up to the present; that way someone writing an ATL with a specific POD can just acquire the latest one before the POD and then take it forward from there.

As I say though, for real flexibility of perspective, the "base" map should not be a Robinson projection, but one that can be converted readily into whatever projection is most appropriate to the story. With a Robinson (or most any projection at all) one can't even rotate to get a new central meridian, let alone focus on a particular region.

This is why IMHO just about every "good" map I've ever seen in any timelines, judged subjectively as "wow, that is an awesome map!" has never been one of these "Q-BAM" things, whatever that acronym is even supposed to mean.
 
BTW, I know this has come up before, but it would seem that with regional Italian languages still in use, there would have to be a "Fusha Italian" for use by the government and national media. Would this be based on Tuscan as IOTL, or would it be more of a blend?

ATL's standard, official variety of Italian wouldn't be much different from OTL's. Pietro Bembo, the man who successfully advocated (among many other people) for an Italian language based on the Tuscan of Boccaccio, Dante and Petrarca, was born in the late 15th century, way before the POD; Alessandro Manzoni published I Promessi Sposi, that is widely considered to be the national novel, between 1820 and 1840, only a few decades before the POD - the first version of the novel was heavily influenced by the Lombard language that was his native tongue, but the final version of it was written in "pure" Tuscan, with only a few influences from Lombard and Venetian, and those owing to the main characters of the novel being uncultured artisans and peasants.

Any attempt to "bastardize" standard Italian (that is a "bastard" form of Tuscan already...) would be met with derision at best, and hostility at worst; not only from the people of the Accademia della Crusca, but also from the people of Tuscany ([ChrisCrockerVoice]Leave our language alone![/ChrisCrockerVoice]) and from those living in Northern and Southern Italy, depending on the changes that would be made to the language - Lombard or Venetian influences would piss off the southerners, Neapolitan or Sicilian influences would piss off the northerners. Roman influences would be opposed for a different reason: Romanesco is mutually intelligible with most central Italian languages but, until recently, it had a similar reputation in Italy to that African American and redneck English have in the United States, and that the Cockney and Glasgow dialects have in the United Kingdom: a frank, open, hearty language, but a language of uneducated lower class louts nonetheless. :D

Corsican influences... there's no way they would happen, unless they want to troll France but, since Corsican is an archaic-sounding offshoot of Tuscan, it would have a better chance to influence standard Italian, if Corsica were a part of Italy.
 
Still, I'd suppose that some Italians of a centralist mindset would view cultural and linguistic federalism as an undoing of Italy. I'd imagine that both the Legatum debates of the early 40s and the debates over broader autonomy in the 50s involved people shouting that the Risorgimento was being betrayed.

Absolutely. There will be people who are absolutely horrified of what is going on, and will be very vocal about it.
The way I see it, the last straw will be when the Crown which had been the main pillar of centralist policies, begins to support decentralization (as a way to cling to more power and symbiolic capital). The process will be about very, very strange bedfellows, indeed what you see is largely the conservative right and the revolutionary far left joining forces to deconstruct a modern bourgeois centrlaized nation-state, not without some convenience agreements with things very similar to Mafia and Camorra along the way.

Especially since analogies between the medieval communes and post-Westphalianism are being made all over Europe, and there's a widespread perception of returning to medieval concepts of sovereignty (albeit through an Enlightenment lens).

BTW, I know this has come up before, but it would seem that with regional Italian languages still in use, there would have to be a "Fusha Italian" for use by the government and national media. Would this be based on Tuscan as IOTL, or would it be more of a blend?

Almost certainly Tuscan-based. It will co-exist with other varieties on a much more equal basis, but I don't see a merger much larger than IOTL (where it occurred in a relatively limited way).
"Tuscan" was absolutely entrenched as the literary language of Italy by TTL's POD. The will be differences, and I expect that by 1970 people will be talking about literatures. But a mainly Tuscan based variety very close to modern Italian, and almost certainly still to be called Italian, is almost a given.
 

Deleted member 67076

But who will tell us:

1) Why is it called "Q-BAM"?
It stands for "Quayza's (pretty sure I got that wrong) Big Ass Map".

2) what is its purpose?
To give more detail than the basic World A map.

I don't particularly like the projection used for one thing. If the format includes the choice of central meridian than it is inflexible for AH; we ought to be able to see the world from many different perspectives.

Ideally I'd promote a standard where everyone uses equirectangular aka "Plan carré", in which features are mapped by a cartesian grid of latitude and longitude, and then we could use software such as NASA's G.Projector to replot it in whatever projection we like, shifting central viewpoints and scales at will.
Dude you're looking into this too much. There's a Pacific centered QBAM if need be, and one could always create a version of the map from another perspective.

in reality of course the level of detail necessary to zoom in on many AH storylines would make for gigantic file sizes for the equirectangular "base map" and I know that my computer can't handle such files using my version of G.Projector.
Why do we need to go all or nothing? This is just to get bit more extra detail.

As far as I can tell, trying to promote the "Q-BAM" format seems to be trying (perhaps without realizing it) to narrow our perspectives to a Eurocentric, OTL-with-minor-tweaks-centric, viewpoint. How useful would Q-BAM be for Green Antarctica or Lands of Ice and Mice? For a Japan-centered timeline? Or Lands of Red and Gold?
I reiterate, looking into this too much. And every single criticism you land on it can be given to the standard, unmodified world a map commonly used in the site and even in this thread.

It also seems to imply that the task of any AH storyteller is to invent a whole alternate planet Earth, and if they fall short of that the parts of the world they don't look at closely must default to OTL.
Uhhh how? :confused:

I mean, what is a "basemap" anyway? To me it suggests that it has all natural features of interest (rivers, lakes, topography) and AH people paint their varied societies and states over that. But none of the so-called "basemap" pages or "basemaps" people trot out ever seem to have much geographic detail. Instead there's lots of political borders--the very features one would think would be completely butterflied away in an ATL!:roll eyes:
Have I offended you in some way?

As I say though, for real flexibility of perspective, the "base" map should not be a Robinson projection, but one that can be converted readily into whatever projection is most appropriate to the story. With a Robinson (or most any projection at all) one can't even rotate to get a new central meridian, let alone focus on a particular region.
I literally don't know anything about map projections so I can't comment on that

This is why IMHO just about every "good" map I've ever seen in any timelines, judged subjectively as "wow, that is an awesome map!" has never been one of these "Q-BAM" things, whatever that acronym is even supposed to mean.
Or that people put far less effort in making different versions of the QBAM because its more work?:confused:
 
I'm also pretty sure that one reason people like the Q-BAM basemap is precisely because it has political divisions, specifically second level administrative divisions (at least in some cases: it has counties in the United States and prefectures in China). For some people, that's useful.

In any case, the best maps usually cover a small area with artistic flourishes (like faded colors), which is missing the point of the Q-BAM and other world base maps; those are there to facilitate people making global political maps. If that ends up being a bit cookie-cutter, well, it's a little inevitable. But that doesn't mean that such maps are useless or without value, they just are maybe not quite the best maps.
 
Also, at least at this point, the post-Westphalian entities are overlays on top of states, so the "basic" borders won't look terribly different. As I mentioned before, a 1960s atlas would show state borders and autonomous administrative divisions in the main map, with an inset to show regional organization memberships. By the 2000s, things will be somewhat more complicated.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the draft.

States overlain on states overlain on states? Might be the first 3 dimensional world map - or an interactive one with layers that peel away! Now THAT would be a masterpiece for some aspirational AH Cartog.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Interesting thoughts...

Hmmm. The Sahel is the canary in so many environmental coal mines that I suspect there would always be an element of "preserve our livelihood" in any conservation movement. Desertification, the development of the Sahara, the conflict between irrigation needs and the maintenance of Lake Chad - all these and other issues would have a major impact on the economy and daily life and would be framed primarily in those terms.

On the other hand, urbanization and mechanized agriculture would still give an impression that the frontier is closing and the wilderness is disappearing, which could lead to Muir's or Pinchot's kind of preservationism. And there would also be the Abacarist/Belloist stewardship ethic, which holds that God's creation is inherently worth preserving and that the natural world is to be enjoyed by humans. The Abacarist imamate is well aware of philosophy and political thought elsewhere in the world, and some of them might take the American conservationists as an inspiration - maybe ITTL, Muir would be cited in religious rulings.

Interesting thoughts... your work has posited a world unlike that of history, but close enough these sort of thoughts just naturally arise - and you are far enough along from the departure point they can plausibly be considered.

As always, nicely done.

I am glad BROS was placed in the "new" Ninteenth Century category, and not continuing.;)

Best,
 
Bumping this for reasons.

It's been a crazy couple of weeks at the office and I have a lot to think through, but I plan to get an update done by the end of the week. It will either be a narrative or, to start 1970-2000 on a hopeful note, an academic update on space exploration. The one after will probably deal with global economics, but don't quote me on that.

While you're waiting, everyone's welcome to join me here, where I'm kicking around ideas for a rice-growing dawn civilization in Mali in the fourth-second millennia BC. That's a lot easier to brainstorm in the 15-minute snatches of free time I've been having lately, and it's turned into a fun conversation - the more the merrier.
 
Last edited:

TNZPofB.gif

Claude Fournier, “From Venus to Persephone,” in Distant Frontiers (Paris: Presse Jules Verne, 2005)

… The observation of the transits of Venus in 1761 and 1769 was a project seventy years in the making. In 1691, and again in 1716, the great astronomer Edmond Halley published papers suggesting that observation of the transits would allow exact calculation of the distance from the sun to the earth, and naming the locations where it might best be observed. As the events approached, astronomers from throughout Europe, sponsored by their own countries and others, prepared to travel to those places.

What followed has sometimes been characterized as the first international scientific collaboration. 120 observers from nine nations, sponsored by their own countries and others, traveled as far as Siberia, Madagascar and the Cape of Good Hope to observe the 1761 transit. Many of them shared preparations and results, and in one case, the spirit of cooperation transcended even the Seven Years’ War: the Royal Navy granted French astronomer Alexandre Guy Pingré safe passage to Madagascar, although the French navy failed to extend the same courtesy to surveyors Charles Mason and Alexander Dixon.

Preparations for the 1769 transit were even more extensive, and also marked by a spirit of early internationalism: Catherine the Great invited a Czech astronomer to observe the event from St. Petersburg, and Swedish naturalist Daniel Solander joined Captain Cook in his expedition to Tahiti. This time, France did allow the British expedition safe conduct, instructing its captains that Cook’s Endeavour was “out on enterprises of service to all mankind.”

Much the same circumstances would repeat themselves two centuries later, when Michael Bárek of the Prague Observatory proposed the Planetary Grand Tour. Like the transit, it was an opportunity of immense scientific value that would be open for a limited time and, if missed, wouldn’t come again for more than a century. And an expedition to the outer planets was as great a journey by twentieth-century standards as a trip to Madagascar or Tahiti was in the eighteenth, if not more so. Many countries were eager to get close views of the outer solar system, but amid the recession and economic dislocation of the 1970s, few single states could justify the cost.

Thus, where the transits of Venus reflected the emerging internationalism of eighteenth-century science, the voyage to Jupiter and beyond was a mirror of the more mature internationalist politics of the modern era. In 1971, representatives of 35 science ministries met under Consistory auspices to coordinate missions, minimize duplication of effort, and arrange cooperation. These meetings would ultimately involve 80 countries and regions, and by the time the rockets launched, 62 of them along with several university networks and private companies would contribute instruments and experiments.

The five Grand Tour missions would give humanity its first close-up photos of the outer planets and Persephone, identify almost a hundred moons, and lead to the first discovery of large objects beyond Neptune’s orbit. Many of the pictures that came back from the Grand Tour probes’ cameras are still iconic, including the Commonwealth “family portrait” of the solar system and the distant image of Earth taken by the American probe. Their political symbolism, at times, was almost as spectacular: the pan-European mission was trumpeted as a sign that Europe had finally put aside its differences, the joint effort of China, Russia and Japan was likewise hailed as a sign of peace between the late belligerents in the Great Asian War, and Indian politicians pointed to the East African and Southeast Asian components in the Brhaspatayaan probe as proof of technical leadership among the developing nations. And as the Indian and Chinese space programs cemented their status as rising great powers, smaller countries contributed instruments to show that they were modern and upwardly mobile.

In most cases the political symbolism was overdone, as was the fashion of the day. But at a time when internationalism was being questioned in many parts of the world, the pictures of the outer planets that filled newspapers and television screens reminded people of the potential it had. In the words of the French admiralty more than two hundred years before, the Grand Tour was an enterprise of service to all mankind, and it showed such enterprises’ value in a way nearly everyone could appreciate…

*******

06kHgTi.jpg

Yahya Khamis Hamad, “The Mayor of the Moon and the Politics of Space,” Essays in Memory of Ulrich Katema, Humanity Magazine (October 2014).

… In the 1960s, the idea that space might have politics belonged in the realm of planetary romance. Satellites were presumed to be under the control of the nations that launched them, and transitory human missions remained under their sponsors’ law. Space had no citizens, and objects in orbit were treated as extensions of the countries that put them there.

This view began to change in the decade that followed. As countries beyond the great powers put up their own communications, weather and navigation satellites – Kazembe in 1978, Brazil in 1979, a Niger Valley consortium in 1981 – reservation of orbits and responsibility for space debris became points of contention. This concern increased sharply when Hungary launched its first satellite in 1980, followed closely by its first test of a rocket-launched fission bomb. The unspoken agreement against orbital weaponry had been breached, and the world confronted the possibility that Hungary or another country might exploit the absence of a legal prohibition by launching orbital weapons platforms.

The 1970s also saw the growth of space stations. The first experimental unit, the Sternenlicht, was launched as early as 1969, with several others following over the next three years. The experience of these early missions, and the technological and operational advances they engendered, paved the way for modular stations. The most prominent of the early ones was the Humanity, launched in 1977 with four great powers contributing modules and several others adding components. The Humanity contained rudimentary assembly and repair facilities and was designed as a prototype shipyard, looking ahead to future times when large spacecraft or habitats might be built entirely in space.

The existence of an international station raised the question of what law applied to the interactions between its staff. In the 1970s, the people in space were still overwhelmingly professional astronauts with military or scientific background, so discipline was generally good and interpersonal conflicts minor. But in 1978, a dispute between the station crew and ground control over what the former saw as harsh work schedules, which led to a one-day work stoppage and involved the science ministries of three countries, highlighted the possibility of more serious labor actions in the future and convinced many that a legal framework had to be in place to handle them.

The Hungarian test was the catalyst that brought all these factors together and, in 1981, the first international conference on the law of space met in Prague. There was nearly universal agreement that space-based weapons should be banned, that a registry of objects in orbit should be instituted, and that an authority should be created to make and enforce space law. The main dispute was over whether near-Earth space should be administered on the watershed-authority model – that is, jointly by the spacefaring nations – or whether it should instead be designated as a Legatum Humanitatis, administered by and on behalf of all humanity.


After some debate, the latter model won out. Nations without spacecraft still had an interest in the administration of space – they made use of communications and weather satellites, and were potentially at risk from falling space debris – and they were unwilling to support an arrangement in which the spacefaring nations would administer Earth orbit as a private club. A group of nations led by the United States also argued for a governing structure that would minimize barriers to entry, allow room for private spacecraft (although any such were still well in the future) and provide for a degree of citizen participation.

The treaty that emerged from the Consistory in 1982 would thus create the Orbital Trusteeship, with jurisdiction over all space beginning 100 kilometers above the Earth’s surface and extending to 50,000 kilometers. Its governing board would contain one representative from each entity that had sponsored a spacecraft, with non-spacefaring entities represented in six regional groupings and a final ten members elected for ten-year terms. Its committees would have authority to enact criminal, civil and labor codes and an organic law governing objects in Earth orbit, and to administer those laws and investigate their breach. Its rulings would be subject to enforcement by the Court of Arbitration, whose peacekeeping arsenal by this time included a small number of missiles capable of bringing down weapons platforms launched into space in defiance of the ban.

The administration of space beyond 50,000 kilometers was left for another day. As yet, no human had left Earth orbit, nor was there any competition over use of the Moon and planets, and no one could know what kind of bases and colonies might be established there in the future. It was assumed that details of government would be worked out in the distant future when they became necessary, but as it turned out, those details would become relevant sooner than thought…

… The long-awaited first landing on the Moon took place on August 11, 1984, when an international crew of seven touched down in the Mare Vaporum. Their habitat consisted of three prefabricated huts capable of supporting 15-day missions, as well as a small fleet of manned and unmanned rovers. Even as the first missions took place, a consortium of 20 nations was building a larger modular habitat which, when finally assembled in space, would be able to support continuous occupation. This installation was brought to the Moon in stages and completed in early 1988, with the first crew of 15 arriving shortly after for a six-month rotation. But even this was a transient station, not a colony, and its administration was at once quasi-academic and quasi-military – a state of affairs that no one thought of changing until Ulrich Katema arrived.

Katema, a leading geologist at the University of Kazembe, spent his early career in the copper mines, working as a miner during his studies and graduating to a professional capacity afterward. In 1968, at the age of thirty, he was badly injured in a tunnel collapse, becoming an S2 paraplegic. Like some others with spinal cord injuries at that level, he learned to walk by wearing braces and using his hips to move his legs, but mobility was slow and painful. For someone who had been an athlete in secondary school, the transition was a difficult one, leading to long-term depression and the loss of his marriage.

As a palliative, Katema threw himself into his work, shifting from an industrial to an academic career and concentrating on planetary geology. In 1988, with several papers on lunar rock samples under his belt, he learned of an upcoming mission to conduct a geological survey of the area around the Vaporum base and determine whether any resources needed for the station’s upkeep could be mined locally. Acting through the university and the Kazembe government, he volunteered to join the party.

His application was initially met with great skepticism: there were no advanced medical facilities on the Moon, and if his disability got him into trouble, the station might not be able to rescue him. But aside from his paraplegia, he was in good health, with none of the incontinence or respiratory problems that affected those with higher-level spinal cord injuries. He pointed out that personnel at the Vaporum base never went out alone, and that the space suits used for lunar activity would provide a natural brace. He was also very persistent, and his skills were needed, so in early 1989, he landed on the Moon.

He would never leave. On the lunar surface, Katema weighed a little more than twelve kilograms rather than seventy-five. He was able to walk without pain and do so much more naturally than he could on Earth, and after he installed ceiling bars in his room and in the hallways of the habitat, his arms were strong enough to carry him hand-over-hand. At the end of his six-month rotation, he refused to go home, and stayed at the Vaporum base until his death in March 2014. He was the Moon’s first settler.

There would be others. Alessandra Licalsi, who married Katema in 1990, was the first, but she wasn’t the only one for whom the harsh landscape of the Moon became home. By 2000, the Vaporum base had a permanent party of ten. The habitat had also seen its first birth, when a physicist’s pregnancy (due to birth control failure) wasn’t noticed until it was too late to bring her home. The baby, Virginia Dare Carroll, was returned to Earth at the first opportunity, but she still symbolized the way that the base was slowly turning into a settlement.

And in the meantime, Katema’s unmatched experience meant that both permanent party and transients looked to him for advice, and the base adopted him as its unofficial mayor. The installation of a permanent habitat and the growing efforts at sustainability meant, for the first time, that many of its workers weren't professional astronauts, coming instead from skilled industrial and even agricultural backgrounds. Katema's work in the mining industry as a young man meant that he understood the skilled tradesmen better than most of the scientists and administrators did, and he was often consulted on policies and called on to mediate disputes. Many of the sustainability projects that the Vaporum base undertook during the 1990s and 2000s - particularly mining for iron and silica and "juicing" rocks for hydrogen fuel and water - also bore his stamp.

It was in this role that Katema raised the issue of the Moon’s political status; true to the Bazembe planetary romances he had grown up with, his eyes were cast on a far future in which the solar system was dotted with colonies and nations. He argued that the Moon as a whole should be administered as a Legatum, but that its settlements should have a degree of self-government that expanded with population, culminating in autonomy and international presence much as the American frontier grew into organized territories and then states. His persistence told again, and in 2006, the Court of Arbitration adopted a protocol much like the one he proposed. He would spend the last eight years of his life as the citizen representative on the Legatum governing board, taking part by video conference in debates on the future of space; in 2009 he would serve as the board’s chairman, the official mayor of the Moon.

The day when the first lunar nation arises is still far in the future, if it comes at all: it will be a long time before any off-Earth settlement is self-sustaining, and even that will depend on an investment we may not see as worth making. But as we finish our preparations to take the next step outward, the model Katema created will follow us elsewhere in the solar system…
 
Last edited:
Legatum Humanitatis instead of Free Seas-but-in-Space. Interesting, especially since the latter is developing organically with the establishment of colonies- there's room for conflict here as the colonies eventually transform into state authorities.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Very nice, indeed.

Very nice, indeed.:)

1984 seems late for a FLO, in a "world" that otherwise seems to have had its "world wars" earlier in the modern era, rather than later.

I may have missed it - how does maleworld handle Antarctica and/or the oceans outside of the continental shelves? Seems like there would be a potential "cooperative" precedent there...

Best,
 
Last edited:
Very nice, indeed.:)

1984 seems late for a FLO, in a "world" that otherwise seems to have had its "world wars" earlier in the modern era, rather than later.

I may have missed it - how does maleworld handle Antartica and/or the oceans outside of the continental shelves? Seems like there would be a potential "cooperative" precedent there...

Best,

I don't think LH would apply for the oceans unless everybody can't agree with one another- I'm sure the Law of the Free Seas will apply much the same way as OTL, with exceptions only based on multitudes of claims overlapping (like the South China Sea). As much as the Malêworld is more cooperative than ours, state interests are still important, especially since the watershed authorities were created because of conflict, not out of genuine generosity.
 

Sulemain

Banned
Holy crap, a live birth on the moon in 2000? JE, I fricking love you man :D

Does "fission" in this time line refer to all nuclear and thermonuclear weapons? I guess it does.
 
Legatum Humanitatis instead of Free Seas-but-in-Space. Interesting, especially since the latter is developing organically with the establishment of colonies- there's room for conflict here as the colonies eventually transform into state authorities.

Conflict may well happen - Katema was looking ahead a couple hundred years and trying for a protocol through which these conflicts might be managed, but it's hard to plan that far in the future.

In any event, that will be something for people in the 22nd or 23rd century to worry about, if even then - the technology to build self-sustaining colonies will take a long time, the investment will only be there intermittently, and it may never make economic sense. TTL's space era is slower and more deliberate, and it's unlikely to be a flash in the pan the way lunar exploration was IOTL, but beyond LEO, it also won't be anyone's first priority.

1984 seems late for a FLO, in a "world" that otherwise seems to have had its "world wars" earlier in the modern era, rather than later.

No WW2-equivalent means delayed rocket technology, although the Sino-Russian War did lead to some advances. Also, without a Cold War to stimulate the kind of prestige-driven project that got us to the Moon IOTL, the emphasis will be more on taking the time to do it right. The first landing is in the 1980s, but it's a ten-person crew and a prefab base rather than two guys and a lander.

The orbital Legatum trusteeship took longer than OTL's Outer Space Treaty too, but that's because many more people had to agree.

I may have missed it - how does maleworld handle Antarctica and/or the oceans outside of the continental shelves? Seems like there would be a potential "cooperative" precedent there...

I don't think LH would apply for the oceans unless everybody can't agree with one another- I'm sure the Law of the Free Seas will apply much the same way as OTL, with exceptions only based on multitudes of claims overlapping (like the South China Sea). As much as the Malêworld is more cooperative than ours, state interests are still important, especially since the watershed authorities were created because of conflict, not out of genuine generosity.

What Badshah said. Continental shelves are still subject to maritime territorial limits and exclusive economic zones, and maritime borders often come before the Court of Arbitrarion, especially where there are resources involved. International waters are more cooperative, and there are many treaties, but no authority yet.

Antarctica does follow the watershed model - there's an organic treaty establishing an authority and basic ground rules, and every entity that conducts scientific or economic activity there has a seat on the governing board.

Holy crap, a live birth on the moon in 2000? JE, I fricking love you man :D

Only one, and they're making damn sure it doesn't happen again until they've done a lot more study of the effects of low gravity on pregnancy and early infancy. The baby was healthy, and low-G is probably less of a risk than zero-G, but they don't want to take any more chances.

Does "fission" in this time line refer to all nuclear and thermonuclear weapons? I guess it does.

It doesn't, but I figured the first Hungarian test would be a fission weapon - something in the 30-50kt range, designed to say "look what we've got, don't mess with us" rather than being state of the art. They're running their nuclear and satellite programs on a shoestring. If you think it's more likely that they'd test a fusion weapon, though, I'm not married to it being otherwise.

Global macroeconomics or maybe environmental issues next, which will be a much bumpier ride.
 
It doesn't, but I figured the first Hungarian test would be a fission weapon - something in the 30-50kt range, designed to say "look what we've got, don't mess with us" rather than being state of the art. They're running their nuclear and satellite programs on a shoestring. If you think it's more likely that they'd test a fusion weapon, though, I'm not married to it being otherwise.

Fission always comes first, because you need a fission weapon to serve as the primary for a thermonuclear weapon, and the thermonuclear design is substantially more complicated than even an implosion fission weapon. No nuclear power in history has ever detonated a fusion weapon first, though China had a very short gap between its first fission and first fusion weapon tests, only three years.

Now, to put on my "I am a space nerd" hat for a moment to critique the post...first, is Persephone an alternate name for Pluto? (You might have mentioned it before but I don't remember). If it's supposed to be a non-Pluto Kuiper Belt object, I would caution that would be very unlikely for a Grand Tour probe, mainly because of the difficult of detecting a suitable object to visit prior to launch and the extremely low probability of a chance encounter. Due to instrument and communication limitations, space probes really aren't any good for discovering new objects, only observing known ones.

Second, I think building an ISS&S in the mid-'70s is probably a little early, if the first space stations were built in the early '70s. Those first stations were probably first-generation stations, that is to say stations launched as an essentially complete module with no on-orbit assembly operations, like Skylab, Salyut, Almaz, and MOL in reality were or would have been. For practical reasons (mainly the extremely high cost of labor in space compared to the ground), the successors to those stations will probably be built out of finished units or modules launched from the ground and only attached on orbit, rather than built from scratch, and the same for any spaceships built in orbit. Moving to that kind of second-generation modular design will probably take a while; there will be "1.5" generation semi-modular space stations, with a large core module and not that much use of modules, like later Salyuts in our reality or Spacelab in Eyes Turned Skywards, there will be countries launching multiple smaller space stations, and so on first, before people go all the way to a properly modular station like Mir or Freedom/Mir2/ISS.

I could see people coming together and deciding to do an international Moon mission after a little bit of this, or even before it quite gets started, and it would be rather natural to have it be based on Earth Orbital Rendezvous, as I shall explain later, which would then naturally imply an international space station. The result of that, however, is that it would probably take quite a long while to actually build it, partially because you have to coordinate a lot of people in different countries in, for example, agreeing just what kind of station to build, but mostly because these things just take a while. It takes years to build space station modules and launch them, and you don't really want to rush because that's how you end up having launch accidents. I would say that an optimistic timeframe overall would be about ten years from project start--that is, from everyone actually agreeing to built the thing--to it actually being done in space. It will probably take longer if you don't have steady funding, like Mir or Freedom/Mir2/ISS in the real world, or if things get tangled up in local politics, or if there are accidents in the construction process, or so on and so forth. So if, for example, everyone agreed that they wanted to do a joint Moon mission in 1975, then I couldn't see the station being finished and ready to go before about 1985 or so.

In any case, such a station would probably mostly serve as a kind of gas station, storing propellant to refuel spaceships in orbit so that they don't need to be launched with it. Since propellant is the vast majority of basically all spacecraft by weight, this means that the complete spacecraft can be launched on very much smaller rockets than are needed if you launch them complete with propellants--for example, with a propellant depot in orbit, you could have launched all the parts of the Apollo mission that actually went to the Moon (that is, the Apollo CSM, the LM, and the S-IVB) with Saturn IBs instead of needing the Saturn V, though you'd need several more launches to lift the propellant. This has the rather salient effect of very naturally generalizing to international activity, but does tend to minimize the amount of work done in space. Basically, all that happens there is docking modules together (something which is largely mechanical and doesn't need human labor in the sense of people going out there and bolting things together or what not) and pumping liquids around.

For all these reasons, I don't think it's very plausible that there would be a "strike" in 1978, unless you're referring to a "strike" like that allegedly carried out by the Skylab 3 crew (a vastly overblown incident and anyways mostly caused by NASA not understanding how long-duration missions worked, something that shouldn't be a problem by the time the ISS&S is built), contract disputes, or rotating short-term worker populations, at least on the ISS&S. The crew would probably be small and composed of professional astronauts, intended mostly to maintain the station systems between missions, with a larger crew arriving just before missions to actually carry those out. The only construction work that would take place would be docking different modules together. The closest example we have in the real world is some of the plans NASA had for a shipyard on Freedom, which generally didn't envision a permanent crew of more than maybe 15-20 astronauts--and in this case, Freedom was still doing everything that the ISS does today! That's small enough that you're talking about a very professionalized work force that is probably paid very well and wouldn't go on strike. The whole thing would look more like the ISS in reality than a construction site in space.

I'm kind of sorry for putting this post in for such harsh criticism, but that's how I see it :eek:
 
Now, to put on my "I am a space nerd" hat for a moment to critique the post...first, is Persephone an alternate name for Pluto?

Persephone' is TTL's name for Pluto, yes - there was some discussion about it a while back, but it was easy to miss.

Since I'm not a space nerd, I'll defer to you on the rest. Let's change the timetable. Figure that the first, Skylab-type space stations are launched around 1971, and that they're designed with the expectation of eventually becoming modules in larger stations. By the end of the 70s, one or two of them have been built up with more advanced components to an intermediate level that isn't quite a Mir. On the way, they've been internationalized (for cost reasons if nothing else) and equipped with cranes and rough assembly facilities.

In the meantime, the planning for the moon mission is underway, and the components are built on the ground and finished sometime during the early 80s, by which time the main station would be at least close to a Mir or ISS. I figured that the habitats would be too big to get into orbit in one piece (albeit small enough to land in the Moon's weaker gravity well) and that the final sages of assembly will take place upstairs, at which point the rockets that will take them to the Moon fuel up at the station and go.

That would keep the 1984 timetable for the lunar landing, but as you say, it would mean no contract labor in orbit during the late 70s - at most, some temporary workers might be brought up for the final assembly. That's OK - labor disputes aren't necessary for the story, and there are enough other reasons for near-Earth space to be made into a trusteeship. Maybe there's an incident like the Great Skylab 4 Mutiny or a fight between two members of the station crew that gets people thinking about what legal and administrative institutions might be necessary when stations get bigger, or maybe not even that.

Does this work? And, looking ahead from 1984 to 2015, would something more like an orbital shipyard/repair shop be possible over that time frame?
 
Top