Malê Rising



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Peter Moller, The Sino-Russian War (New York: Academy, 1965)

… After the Mukden Incident of 1939 [1], it became clear – if it hadn’t been before – that the Manchurian rebellion could not be contained. The rebels had progressed from attacking symbols and institutions of the Qing government to attacking Russian troops, and they were doing so with Chinese arms. China’s support for the revolt was so overt as to not even be an open secret, and it rebuffed any suggestion that it stop supplying the rebellion with shelter and weapons.

Neither Russia nor China was eager to start a war immediately, because both felt they were unready. Russia was cautious about building up its troop strength in Manchuria, both out of fear that China might interpret it as an aggressive action and because it was wary of pulling too many troops away from the European and Caucasian borders. China, for its part, knew that its industrial plant still couldn’t match Russia’s, and didn’t want to get into a full-scale conflict before it had laid in a sufficient stock of riders and aircraft. But neither side showed much interest in avoiding war: the Court of Arbitration’s attempts to broker a settlement were received unkindly, and responses to border incidents became progressively more belligerent.

Ultimately, it was China who pulled the trigger first, with Ma Qi deciding to act before the Russian buildup became too difficult to dislodge. In September 1942, he got his chance when a Russian patrol in pursuit of rebels crossed the border and exchanged fire with Chinese troops. Within twenty-four hours, a compliant Great National Council voted unanimously to declare war, Chinese bombers struck Mukden and Harbin, and units of the Chinese army advanced onto Manchurian soil.

China’s general staff had planned a three-stage war. The first objective would be to seize the Manchurian plain, secure the passes across the Khingan mountains, and cut the bridges and rail crossings across the Amur. At the same time, Chinese bombers would destroy the Russian airfields in eastern Siberia. The second stage involved taking Vladivostok, thus cutting Russia off from resupply by sea, and advancing across the Amur to overrun the Trans-Siberian Railroad and establish a buffer against counterattack. In the final stage, China would attack through Mongolia to open a second front on the steppe, threatening Russia with the total loss of Siberia and forcing it to the peace table.

The actual course of the war was somewhat different. The first weeks went favorably for China: the heavily outnumbered Russian troops in Manchuria retreated northward, the major cities fell, and the Han Chinese population welcomed the Chinese soldiers as liberators. The extent of China’s knowledge of the Siberian airfields also took the Russian air force by surprise, and many of its long-range bombers were destroyed on the ground. But unexpectedly strong resistance in northern Manchuria, where the Qing and mixed Transbaikal Orthodox people [2] predominated, slowed the Chinese advance, and the bitter Manchurian winter set in before that advance reached the Amur. The Chinese forces continued to move forward, but the Russians were more used to winter fighting, and they bought time to bring more troops to the front.

These would not be enough in the short term: although Russia had introduced conscription in 1941, it had gone to full mobilization only after the war started, and it would take months to recruit and train a new army. The reinforcements made the Chinese advance costly, and in several cases, they only broke the Russian lines with human-wave assaults, but by February 1943, they had reached the Amur and completed the conquest of Manchuria.

The battle paused only briefly as more Chinese armies were brought to the front, and in late March, they crossed the Russian border. The advance toward the Trans-Siberian Railroad went somewhat faster at first, as the Russian armies that had been broken in Manchuria needed time to regroup. The battle for the lower Amur was worse, a nightmare of frozen swamps and shifting channels, but it was also one where the technical superiority of Russian riders and artillery mattered little. And while Vladivostok itself was heavily fortified, the countryside around it was not, so the eastward advance through the Wanda Mountains encountered little opposition, and the city was under siege by the time the rasputitsa forced a lull in the fighting.

But other things were not going China’s way. Russia had known for more than half a decade that it might have to fight a war against a power whose population centers and industrial plant were a long way from its own, so it had thrown its resources into developing long-range bombers and rockets. The Anastasias, which had been used so effectively in the Nile War and were used by both sides in the Sino-Russian War, were an outgrowth of that program, but by this time there were many others. In 1943, it was able to field experimental bombers with a range of 3000 kilometers and rockets that could deliver a 220-kilogram warhead over a 4000-kilometer range. Both had their disadvantages – the bombers’ range exceeded that of their fighter escorts by hundreds of kilometers, and the rockets’ accuracy left much to be desired – and in other circumstances, they would have stayed under wraps until better models were developed, but Russia was desperate to take the war to the enemy. The bombers, based in central Siberia and Yakutia, suffered heavy losses from Chinese antiaircraft fire, but raids and rocket attacks began to take a toll on the industrial cities of northern China.

The other obstacle Ma Qi faced was much closer to the ground: the guerrilla raids of Transbaikal Orthodox partisans in northern Manchuria and Siberia. These would tie up hundreds of thousands of troops and threaten Chinese supply lines, and in the process, they would become a Russian legend: people of mixed Slavic, Mongol and Chinese blood fighting for the motherland where the government’s troops had failed. And it was not lost on those who made these legends that the partisans came from the narodnik ethos and were far closer to the spirit of the Tolstoyan revolution than the current oligarchy was…

… The outbreak of war left Japan scrambling for a policy. The liberal government of Taro Mimura strongly favored neutrality, fearing that participation in the war would open the door to a return of right-wing militarism. At the same time, Russia and China offered rich incentives if Japan were to take their side. Both nations promised major trade concessions, and China also pledged to formally relinquish its claim to Formosa. These offers created a substantial war party in the cabinet, but they also ensured that the war faction was divided: Russia had less that Japan wanted, but a resurgent China was judged likely to pursue Formosa eventually no matter what promises it made now. At a time when Japan was considering whether to grant internal autonomy to its non-Japanese provinces, it was wary that this plan might lead to Chinese-sponsored separatism as had happened in Manchuria.

It would be neither Russia nor China, but Korea, that broke the impasse. Korea, too, wanted to stay out of the fight, but had allegiances pulling it both ways: as a nominal Chinese vassal, it was obligated to support China, but economic and increasingly cultural factors bound it to Russia. A growing faction in the Korean government supported full independence as a way to maintain its ties to Russia without having military obligations toward either side, and this faction put aside the memory of the Great War and looked to Japan to guarantee such independence. The idea of turning to an old enemy for aid was controversial in the Korean cabinet, but it eventually won out over the pro-China faction, and Korea sent a formal mission to Tokyo to request Japanese sponsorship.

The chance to compete with Russia for economic hegemony in Korea was one that united the militarist and mercantilist factions in the Japanese cabinet, and proved too much for the Mimura government to resist. In August 1943, Korea declared independence, renouncing its vassalage to China, and the Japanese Diet immediately approved a defensive alliance. For the time being, this had little effect other than a sharp drop-off in Chinese overtures to Tokyo, but it would eventually lead both Japan and Korea into the war…

… China’s offensive through Mongolia and central Siberia began in the summer of 1943, some months later than planned. It met a Russian counterattack coming through the same region at the same time. The Russian staff had decided that an immediate attempt to retake southeastern Siberia and Manchuria would be too logistically difficult, and instead settled on a flanking maneuver: the army would pour through the steppe to threaten the northern Chinese cities, hopefully forcing a withdrawal from Manchuria or even cutting it off from China proper.

The result was the largest battle in human history, if “battle” is a proper word for the running fight that occurred throughout the Mongolian steppe over a period of six months. Outer Mongolia – population less than one million – became the temporary home of more than five million soldiers and 14,000 riders. General Chatterjee’s description of the Battle of Darjeeling as “the first naval battle fought on land” went double for the struggle in Mongolia as riders clashed in brigade or even division strength.

Rider for rider and aircraft for aircraft, Russian equipment was superior, but again, quantity had a quality all its own, and China had enough numerical superiority to make up for the difference. After an initial period during which Chinese forces fell back before the unexpected Russian attack, they began to get the upper hand. By early 1944, it seemed that China would break through to central Siberia, which would push Russian forces out of any position from which they could threaten Chinese cities and, quite possibly, win China the war.

But in the meantime, two things were happening, one behind the scenes and one very much at center stage. Although China had started the war with more riders, aircraft and artillery pieces than Russia, its losses had been heavier and its smaller industrial plant replaced them more slowly. This took time to reach its full effect, because Russian industry was less militarized than Chinese, and because Russia’s government hesitated to grant the democratization that the trade unions demanded as the price of total commitment. But the exigencies of war, and the rebirth of Tolstoyan idealism among a population that contrasted the partisans’ and soldiers’ sacrifices with official corruption, made the government see the writing on the wall, and more and more new equipment was reaching the front.

And at the same time, the Uighurs and Mongols rebelled behind the lines. That, too, had been a long time building: these peoples had faced persecution for years due to their perceived ties to Russia [3], and during the battle in and around Mongolia, this escalated to full-scale expulsion. With their backs against the wall, they felt they had no choice but to fight. Their uprising tied down more Chinese divisions at the time they were needed most – and the large Uighur refugee community in Turkestan was finally able to convince that nation, which had vacillated since the early days of the war, to come in on Russia’s side.

Nor were the Turkestanis the only ones to join the fray. Ethiopian volunteers, many of them veterans of the Nile War, had streamed into Russia from the beginning, and by now there were several divisions’ worth. Among the Ethiopian officers was Grand Duke Alexei, a younger son of Tsar and King Mikhail, and his arrival marked the first time a member of the imperial family had set foot in Russia since the revolution. His appearance in the fez and zouave trousers of an Eritrean colonel caused a stir in the capital, although most of the admiration was reserved for the way he and the other Ethiopians acquitted themselves in the Mongolian mountain fighting.

The battles in the mountains were hard, but they succeeded in blunting the Chinese advance, and by the spring of 1944, Russia was on the offensive in Mongolia. And it was then, also, that poor intelligence multiplied China’s troubles. Russia was considering three possible ways to retake eastern Siberia and Manchuria: bite the bullet and push east through difficult country against well-dug-in Chinese troops; land troops at Vladivostok and attempt a breakout; or land in northern Korea and enter Manchuria on a broad front from there. The Russian ambassador in Seoul began negotiating passage rights in case the third option was approved. Korea was, in fact, inclined not to grant such rights lest it be drawn into the fighting, but its ties to Russia made it hesitant to refuse outright, and a miscommunication led the Chinese embassy to report that Seoul was on the point of agreeing to the Russian landing. Without waiting for confirmation, Ma Qi responded by ordering a pre-emptive invasion of Korea – which, under the terms of its pact with Japan, brought the Japanese army into the war.

The period that followed, from mid-1944 until 1946, would be known in Russia as the Long March and in China as the Long Retreat. This was, in many ways, the most destructive stage of the war, as Russian and Japanese bombs fell on China’s cities and China retaliated with rocket and bombing attacks on the Japanese home islands. The countryside of Xinjiang, Outer Mongolia and Inner Mongolia suffered devastation as the Chinese armies fell back, trading space for time to raise troops and build more riders and aircraft. There was heavy fighting in the northern Korean mountains, pulling Chinese troops from the north and intensifying the already-bitter conflict in northern Manchuria; by late 1945, the partisans were in effective control of several mountainous regions and had declared a Republic of the Amur.

The autumn of 1946 began the endgame, as China counterattacked with a huge army raised from the central and southern provinces, the largest ever assembled to that date. The offensive had some initial success: Russia had reached the outskirts of Shaanxi and Tianjin, its supply lines were long and its troops were heavily outnumbered. Russian air superiority was also somewhat reduced by a new type of aircraft that China used for home defense. The Chinese air corps, taking a leaf from the Great War-era French Navy’s book, had sought to oppose strength with speed, and while Russia put its resources into developing more powerful and longer-range rockets, China threw its efforts into prototype jet aircraft. In early 1946, the first operational jet fighters came off the assembly line, capable of far greater speed than Russian bomber escorts, and they provided the Chinese troops with cover as they pushed Russia back through Inner Mongolia.

As winter set in, however, the Chinese advance stalled: their own supply lines were lengthening, they didn’t have enough jet fighters to stop the increasingly intense bombing raids, and their ranks were thinned by saturation bombardment that they no longer had enough artillery or short-range rockets to answer. The countryside was hostile, and they felt the pinprick of thousands of partisan raids, and growing concern about a Japanese breakthrough to Manchuria required troops to be pulled away from the front.

Ma Qi’s response was to announce that yet another army would be recruited – but by this time, with more than ten million soldiers and even more civilians dead, the Chinese people had lost their patience with the war. Patriotism, the successful seizure of Manchuria and the Great Renewal apparatus [4] had kept the population mobilized thus far, but now that ended as more and more of the emperor’s supporters in the civil service and security forces turned against him. The end came in early March 1947 when elements of the police and the Beijing garrison joined with opposition factions to seize the capital and, after Ma Qi was killed during the fighting, formed the Government of National Salvation. The following day, the new government, whose control over the outlying provinces and the main army was yet uncertain, sued for a cease-fire.

Russia was initially minded to decline, with its generals and political leaders wary of any peace negotiations that began with China still holding part of eastern Siberia and most of Manchuria. But Japan was eager to end the war, knowing that the longer the conflict lasted, the greater the chance that resurgent militarism might sweep away its liberal gains. And the Russian public wasn’t nearly as keen to fight on as the leadership: parents didn’t want their sons to join the five million who had already died, and the trade unions and narodniks viewed continued war as an excuse to delay the national elections that the government had promised. The Russian government also had to face the fact that it was nearly bankrupt, and that its creditors, who wanted peace, were in a position to exert great leverage. In early May, after almost five years of war and destruction, the guns fell silent…

… St. Petersburg’s reluctance to stop fighting while China still had boots on Russian and Manchurian soil proved prescient. With the Qing imperial family having disappeared during the war, there was no dynasty to lend legitimacy to Russian dominance of Manchuria, and nobody relished the war that would have to be fought to restore that dominance, much less to maintain it against the will of the pro-Chinese majority. China was thus able to keep its sovereignty over Manchuria, meaning that even with the recognition of Korean independence, the peace settlement actually increased its nominal territory.

“Nominal,” however, was a key word. Although subject to China, the southern two thirds of Manchuria would be autonomous and demilitarized, and Russian civilians would have the same rights there that they did before the war, meaning in practice that Russia would still have great economic and political influence. Northern Manchuria would be controlled by the Republic of the Amur, with only the barest shred of Chinese sovereignty, becoming a de facto extension of Russian Siberia although its inhabitants’ independent streak would prove as troublesome to Russia as to China. And in the west, an autonomous State of Xinjiang and State of Mongolia came into being, the former of which would have close ties to Turkestan and the latter to Russia proper. This was far from a partition of China – these regions’ historic political, cultural and (in Mongolia’s case) religious ties to China meant that their status as Chinese vassals was more than a formality – but at the same time, Russian soft power and economic influence would extend to vast new territories in Central Asia…

*******

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Amélie N’Deye Moreira, The International Century (Univ. of Dakar Press, 2005)

… While Russia and China slugged it out across a broad swath of Asia, the rest of the world looked on appalled. The conflicts in India, Latin America and the Nile Valley had given a taste of how much more destructive warfare had become since the Great War, but now that lesson was brought home. In a war that was largely between two nations, the Great War death toll had been equaled or even exceeded; estimates of the military and civilian casualties in the Sino-Russian War would reach more than 35 million. And more than that, the rise of strategic bombing, beyond anything done in the Nile War, meant that civilians were a greater percentage of the dead. The Indian war had proven that a modern army intent on deliberately increasing civilian casualties could cause untold carnage, but so many civilians dead as a mere incident of war without widespread famine was something unprecedented.

This, along with the events of the Bloody Forties in East Africa and continuing troubles elsewhere in the world, made many wonder what might happen if another global conflict broke out. This concern was only accentuated in 1950 when, on an uninhabited atoll in the Marshall Islands, Germany detonated the first fission bomb. The full impact of atomic warfare was not yet known – it would be years before the effects of radiation poisoning on those who observed the detonation were noted – but even with what was known at the time, this was a weapon that could wreak unprecedented destruction on cities and armies alike.

It was in this atmosphere that The Second Great War, by Russian general Anatoly Volkov and Chinese general Zhang Zemin, was published. Both officers were veterans of the Sino-Russian War who had formed an unlikely partnership afterward in the cause of peace. Their book, which was part novel and part documentary, imagined a global war that began in 1960 with an incident on the Russo-Polish border and escalated into a three-sided conflict in which all major powers took part. Volkov and Zhang, building on the military technology of recent wars, described a conflict in which rockets carried fission bombs across oceans and continents, strategic bombing extended from cities to the countryside (targeted at “industrialized food production”), and improvements in artillery and air power meant that the half-life of combat infantrymen in intense fighting was no more than a few days. By war’s end in 1965, more than ten percent of the world’s three billion people were dead, and many countries had been reduced to nineteenth-century living standards.

There had already been a movement, at the time of the Sino-Russian peace talks of 1947-48, to expand them into a wider collective security framework, and The Second Great War, which became a worldwide best-seller, gave this movement added impetus. During the early 1950s, the call for a global collective security conference was taken up by one after another of the great powers, by many of the rising ones, and by a growing number of non-governmental actors. In one widely-publicized ruling, the Belloist imamate of Bornu stated that it was every government’s duty to meet and seek peace, and the same sentiment was expressed in various forms by mass movements on six continents.

In 1953, the movement bore fruit with the announcement of the World Conference on International Relations. Like the conference that ended the Great War, this one would take place in Washington, partly because the United States was the largest neutral power but chiefly because of the organizing and logistical role of the United States Department of Peace. This department, created as a bully pulpit for Jane Addams after her Peace Party presidential bid in 1916 [5], had lapsed into a sinecure after Addams’ departure, and had become an adjunct to the State Department focusing on educational and cultural exchanges. Its incumbent secretary, however, was of a more activist mind, and had pledged its staff, facilities and budget to organizing and hosting the conference. In a not entirely surprising fashion, this also ensured that the United States would have considerable influence at the talks.

The conference opened on November 15, 1953 with great fanfare and publicly expressed goodwill. Finding agreement would prove harder. As had happened at the first Washington Conference, idealists of all stripes descended on the meeting to lobby for their causes: the American capital was the scene of demonstrations for world government, total disarmament, a universal language and a myriad of similar visions. These had relatively little traction inside the conference hall, although proposals for a world parliament and army were debated: traditional conceptions of sovereignty had steadily eroded during the twentieth century, but the erosion had not gone that far. The world’s nations were not ready to give up their sovereignty altogether; instead, the crucial question was how far they would be willing to pool that sovereignty in order to prevent a global conflagration.

At length, the conferees reached consensus on two matters. First, recognizing the usefulness that the Court of Arbitration had shown in resolving disputes short of war and in overseeing the peacemaking process where war had not been avoided, it was agreed that the court would henceforth have mandatory jurisdiction over all international disputes, and that such disputes could be taken up by the court even before being referred by the parties. The treaty establishing mandatory jurisdiction, which was initially signed by 62 countries, pledged all signatories to enforce the court’s rulings, and also obligated them to contribute troops to a permanent peacekeeping force. This force in itself could not guarantee enforcement of the court’s decisions – it was too small to threaten even a regional power, let alone a global one – but it gave the court a standing resource to provide aid once its rulings had been accepted and prevent terrorists or splinter factions from sabotaging them.

The second treaty was born out of recognition that a court, which necessarily ruled on a case-by-case basis, could not be the only international authority. Something more was necessary to take up emerging issues that were more political than legal in nature and that could not be resolved solely by reference to law. For that matter, many of the conferees were alarmed at the political role the court had taken in such matters as the Venetian Legatum, and wanted an assembly of governments to balance that role.

This assembly would be the Consistory, which was less a legislature than a permanent embassy of every country to every other. Delegates, who would serve for five-year terms, would have plenipotentiary power to negotiate treaties, which would be subject to ratification by their governments but would also become customary international law if supported by three fourths of the members. It was envisioned that the Consistory would become a permanent international talking shop, with staff available for research and drafting, and that it would become the forum where consensus would be developed on worldwide and regional issues.

What was remarkable about the Consistory, by the standards of the time, was its proposed membership. Because it was designed to be a forum for agreeing on multilateral treaties, every entity capable of making treaties was eligible to take part. This included not only traditional states but the free cities and autonomous provinces that had their own international presence, regional agencies such as the Nile Authority, and the Court of Arbitration itself. Participation was granted even to certain previously unrecognized collectives: the world Roma organization that had been building since the 1920s [6], and at the insistence of Salonika and the Ottoman Empire, the world Jewish diaspora. More than a hundred of the entities on the original membership list were not states – a far cry from the 11,000 that have offices in the Consistory headquarters today, but a symbol of the growing recognition that participation in world affairs was not limited to nations.

The conference did not usher in an immediate era of peace and harmony. The new institutions it created, and the new strength it gave to old ones, were not accepted everywhere, and there would continue to be war and oppression, especially since little was done to regulate civil conflicts. But if not a harbinger of universal peace, it was at least a step in that direction, and succeeding decades would show how valuable its fruits were…

_______

[1] See post 4806.

[2] See post 3449.

[3] See post 4969.

[4] See posts 3449 and 4969.

[5] See post 3324.

[6] See post 4496.
 
What a bloodbath.

As unpleasant as the Ma regime was, I'm vaguely disappointed that China's Century of Humiliation seems to have stretched on in this timeline, and bundled the worst excesses of the Cultural Revolution and the Second Sino-Japanese War into it to boot. Not that it's implausible, just depressing.
Still, not every region can turn out better than in our world I suppose, and it's not like Ma imperialism would have been a bundle of laughs for the Chinese periphery....
 
So the war didn't go quite how China wanted it to. I'm glad to see that the people of Xinjiang aren't necessarily doomed to Chinese domination though how the influence of Russia will affect things remains to be seen.

The latter part of the update certainly presents some interesting tasters as to how Internationalism may be a more serious force than it was in OTL. As Falecius said, a most excellent update!
 

The Sandman

Banned
I suspect the Koreans would have gotten their own territorial claims in Manchuria recognized in the peace treaty, so they gained something from this aside from independence.

Japanese and Korean entry is probably what made things go particularly badly for China, since China would have been put under blockade at that point and Formosa would have provided a staging point for air raids against the cities of southern and central China.

I expect both Hong Kong and Macau were very, very nervous during the fighting.

On a different subject, there's the possibility of using the Sahara the same way the Russians use the steppes around Baikonur IOTL, as far as the logistics of building a launch facility in West Africa.
 
Well...shit.

I picked an interesting update to come back and read in on, didn't I?

Seriously, that's a really destructive war. I suppose on the plus side the sheer amount of war exhaustion and rebuilding necessary on the Russo-Chinese border zone will ensure that the new states will have time to recover and settle in to the new order of affairs without extensive pressure from either of the belligerent powers, but they'll need it all the more for how badly they will have suffered.

On that note, with Ma Qi dead can we expect a democratic China resulting from the National Salvation Government? Or am I being a bit too optimistic?

I do like the idea of the Consistory, as well. You've mentioned in the past that TTL's version of the UN would have close to 11,000 members, and I'll admit I was very confused how any sort of parliamentary body could contain that kind of membership. The Consistory neatly side-steps that problem by essentially being an embassy with enough political authority to act and rule on treaties its members make in personal and frank actions between states, peoples, and all manner of sovereign polities. Will it be a disorganized mess from the outside looking in? Dear God, yes. Can it work? I also think yes.

Once again, I'm really impressed. I also like how the realization of MAD came about ITTL without the necessity of massive nuclear build-up, but rather through the literature of two exhausted generals painting an accurate and honest view of what a second great war at this point in time would look like. That's one of those examples of cultural events and movements having political repercussions that is absent from so many TLs that I love to see here.
 
Dear God, the carnage in the Russo-Chinese war has been huge.

What a bloodbath.

It's a war between two big countries with big modern armies, taking place across a wide swath of Asia, and both sides are capable of prolonging the war by trading space for time. Under those circumstances, unfortunately, a bloodbath is destined to happen.

As unpleasant as the Ma regime was, I'm vaguely disappointed that China's Century of Humiliation seems to have stretched on in this timeline, and bundled the worst excesses of the Cultural Revolution and the Second Sino-Japanese War into it to boot. Not that it's implausible, just depressing.

The funny thing is that the Chinese won't look on this war as a humiliation - instead, they'll see it much as Egypt does the Yom Kippur/October/Ramadan War. As they see it, they've gone from the Opium Wars, where they were kicked around contemptuously by European armies one tenth the size of theirs, to being able to stand toe-to-toe with Russia for five years. And at the end of it all, even though they lost, they got Manchuria back - the fact that it (and Mongolia and Xinjiang) are now special provinces is secondary.

China's losses were terrible, and no one wants another war like that one - but going forward, during the rebuilding of the 1950s and 60s, its memory may lend courage and confidence.

So the war didn't go quite how China wanted it to. I'm glad to see that the people of Xinjiang aren't necessarily doomed to Chinese domination though how the influence of Russia will affect things remains to be seen.

Xinjiang is still part of China, albeit an autonomous vassal rather than an integral province, so it won't be under total Russian hegemony. In effect, the peace settlement has given China and Russia overlapping spheres of influence (or, more accurately, formalized the overlapping spheres that already existed), so the border provinces will have some room to maneuver between them. Also, Xinjiang's closest ties will be to Turkestan rather than Russia, and although both are Russian allies, Turkestan's independence will strengthen Xinjiang's. The Central Asians don't plan to be anyone's puppets.

I suspect the Koreans would have gotten their own territorial claims in Manchuria recognized in the peace treaty, so they gained something from this aside from independence.

They got some border concessions, but not their full claim. The sponsors of the peace conference were very concerned with making the borders sustainable and not teeing up another war in a decade's time, so they didn't let Korea take too much.

Japanese and Korean entry is probably what made things go particularly badly for China, since China would have been put under blockade at that point and Formosa would have provided a staging point for air raids against the cities of southern and central China.

I expect both Hong Kong and Macau were very, very nervous during the fighting.

Opening a second front in Korea certainly didn't help, and since Japan was a major naval power while China had a very small navy, it was able to blockade Chinese ports very effectively.

Hong Kong and Macau got by the same way Goa did during the Indian revolution: they very carefully declined to take sides, and trusted that they were more valuable to China as neutral ports than as conquests. But yes, they certainly were nervous.

Seriously, that's a really destructive war. I suppose on the plus side the sheer amount of war exhaustion and rebuilding necessary on the Russo-Chinese border zone will ensure that the new states will have time to recover and settle in to the new order of affairs without extensive pressure from either of the belligerent powers, but they'll need it all the more for how badly they will have suffered.

They'll certainly have more of a chance to develop an independent identity, which means that when Russia and China start sorting out how their overlapping spheres of influence work, they'll have a say as well.

On that note, with Ma Qi dead can we expect a democratic China resulting from the National Salvation Government? Or am I being a bit too optimistic?

In the short term, you're probably being too optimistic - the new government includes many unreconstructed officials from the old one. On the other hand, it's a fairly big tent, and the rough checks and balances that are developing now could turn into real democracy later. Think Romania after Ceausescu - it took a while to work the kinks out, but they eventually did.

I do like the idea of the Consistory, as well. You've mentioned in the past that TTL's version of the UN would have close to 11,000 members, and I'll admit I was very confused how any sort of parliamentary body could contain that kind of membership. The Consistory neatly side-steps that problem by essentially being an embassy with enough political authority to act and rule on treaties its members make in personal and frank actions between states, peoples, and all manner of sovereign polities. Will it be a disorganized mess from the outside looking in? Dear God, yes. Can it work? I also think yes.

Especially since many of the members will only be concerned with a particular region or topic. Most debates and projects won't involve 11,000 participants all clamoring to be heard; instead, they'll arise from naturally-forming committees. It'll still be messy as hell, but it will function better than the outward chaos makes it seem.

Another thing the Consistory will do is act as a back channel between countries that don't recognize each other, and provide a venue for other powers to get those countries' representatives in a room and knock some heads together.

Oh, and TTL's international organizations aren't yet in their final form, or even close to it.

Once again, I'm really impressed. I also like how the realization of MAD came about ITTL without the necessity of massive nuclear build-up, but rather through the literature of two exhausted generals painting an accurate and honest view of what a second great war at this point in time would look like. That's one of those examples of cultural events and movements having political repercussions that is absent from so many TLs that I love to see here.

Thanks. One issue that's come up from time to time in TTL is how, without an equivalent to WW2, the world will learn the lessons it needs to learn in order to decolonize and develop collective security. I've tried to answer that in various ways. One, of course, is a series of smaller-but-still-big wars that provide parts of the experience that WW2 provided in OTL. But cultural factors are another, and many of them - the Islamic reformism of the nineteenth century, the legacy of the American Peace Party, and the erosion of Westphalian sovereignty - have laid part of the groundwork for the emerging international order. Volkov and Zhang's Second Great War came out of that milieu as much as it came out of the bitter lessons of the Sino-Russian conflict, and the cultural shifts of TTL's last hundred years helped prime the rest of the world to accept its thesis.
 
I asume that this was the last big war ITTL, where deaths are counted in millions?
A question on China - I assume that, when the National Salvation Committee took over, it was formally as caretaker in the absence of an Emperor. Will that be jettisoned for a Republic, or will the new leaders go for continuity by installing a figurehead Emperor (a relative of Ma Qi or, if that Family is too compromised, some compromise candidate)?
 

Hnau

Banned
The latest ground wars are certainly terrible, but in my opinion still preferable to the Second World War of our timeline. Conflicts were bound to happen, even in this glass half full world, and now hopefully the world will be able to learn from them and keep future wars to a minimum.

The pacifist organizations of the world should count the establishment of the Court of Arbitration and the Consistory as a huge victory, a leap forward in their agenda to stop war. I'm glad to know that there are further victories to be won, as well. It makes me very hopeful for the 21st century. Now if only we can get the world to agree on banning or limiting nuclear weapon proliferation, and if we can get a few countries racing against each other in advancing space technology, well, that would lead to further awesomeness. :) Without a Cold War like OTL, between two nuclear superpowers, the techno-optimism of the mid-20th may continue unabated.
 
This was an amazing update, the Sino-Russian war was horrifying but the international developments that came out of it are phenomenal.
Am I the only one who really wants to read that book now? sounds like an amazing read :D
 
Göttingen is referred as one of the Hanseatic cities.

Technically, Berlin was also a Hanseatic city. ;)

Dear God, the carnage in the Russo-Chinese war has been huge.

Does the Sino-Russian War really deserve its names?
It started out as one, but escalated into a war for the future of East Asia.
Wouldn't (Great) East Asia(ian) War be more appropriate?

the fact that it (and Mongolia and Xinjiang) are now special provinces is secondary.

How does the proclamation of the State of Mongolia affects Mongolia's status?
According to the last world map, it was already basically an autonomous part of the Chinese Empire.
 
One quibble.

You talk about China introducing the first jet fighters into combat, and how they totally outclassed the Russian bomber escorts.

This seems a bit odd to me, as otl thrhe first generation of jet fighters (Gloster Meteor, Me262, P80) did have a slight speed advantage over the best prop planes, true, but the were pretty useless in a dogfight, being unresponsive and not as manoeuvrable.

Assuming the Russian escorts are comparable to a P51 (long range, great fighter), and the Chinese jets to any of the 1st gen jet fighters of otl (and yes, neither of those assumptions is necessarily valid), the Chinese jets would be a shock to the Russians and a significant advantage to the Chinese, but not a total game changer. Not in THAT war.

You need Mig15s and F86 Sabres, or equivalent obviously, before the jets really out class the best piston planes.
 
The Eastern War? The Manchurian War? I could see it ending up having several names, especially among the participants...
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, based on the photographic evidence, the Chinese (I think) are

One quibble.

You talk about China introducing the first jet fighters into combat, and how they totally outclassed the Russian bomber escorts.

This seems a bit odd to me, as otl thrhe first generation of jet fighters (Gloster Meteor, Me262, P80) did have a slight speed advantage over the best prop planes, true, but the were pretty useless in a dogfight, being unresponsive and not as manoeuvrable.

Assuming the Russian escorts are comparable to a P51 (long range, great fighter), and the Chinese jets to any of the 1st gen jet fighters of otl (and yes, neither of those assumptions is necessarily valid), the Chinese jets would be a shock to the Russians and a significant advantage to the Chinese, but not a total game changer. Not in THAT war.

You need Mig15s and F86 Sabres, or equivalent obviously, before the jets really out class the best piston planes.

Well, based on the photographic evidence, the Chinese (I think) are apparently equipped with bolt-action rifles and steel helmets and what appears to be a fairly well streamlined low-wing monoplane fighter with an inline liquid cooled engine.;)

That's about all we can say...

(Back in reality, great job to JE on this one; very detailed overall. Where did you find the photo? One of the Green Books on the CBI? It looks like some element of the 22nd, 30th, or 38th division on the march past, with a P-40 overhead...)

Best,
 
An interesting update and an exceptionally bloody war.

I asume that this was the last big war ITTL, where deaths are counted in millions?

Barring a nuclear exchange (which probably isn't on the cards) or something like OTL's Congo war (which is less likely than OTL, given the relatively stronger states in Africa), yes, this was the last big one. From this point, as in OTL, the most destructive conflicts will be civil wars and insurgencies, and the next major challenge of the international system will be to figure out how to handle them.

A question on China - I assume that, when the National Salvation Committee took over, it was formally as caretaker in the absence of an Emperor. Will that be jettisoned for a Republic, or will the new leaders go for continuity by installing a figurehead Emperor (a relative of Ma Qi or, if that Family is too compromised, some compromise candidate)?

That's the RMB 64,000 question. They'll probably look for a compromise candidate at first, but one may be too hard to find, and in that event, they'll either go for a republic or, as in Hungary, act as regents to an empty throne.

The pacifist organizations of the world should count the establishment of the Court of Arbitration and the Consistory as a huge victory, a leap forward in their agenda to stop war. I'm glad to know that there are further victories to be won, as well. It makes me very hopeful for the 21st century. Now if only we can get the world to agree on banning or limiting nuclear weapon proliferation, and if we can get a few countries racing against each other in advancing space technology, well, that would lead to further awesomeness. :) Without a Cold War like OTL, between two nuclear superpowers, the techno-optimism of the mid-20th may continue unabated.

A multipolar space race is, as others have mentioned, nearly certain, although without the Cold War as a background, it might not be seen as a "race." On the other hand, a relatively more multipolar world might make it harder to limit nuclear proliferation, because there are more countries with nuclear programs and thus more potential points of dispersion. Something like OTL's nonproliferation treaty, which limits nuclear weapons to a few major powers, might be less acceptable in TTL, with regional and minor powers less willing to accept second-class status. Obviously, this is an issue that will be taken up, especially once the full effect of nuclear weapons becomes known, but setting up the regulatory framework might take a while.

Am I the only one who really wants to read that book now? sounds like an amazing read :D

If you've read General John Hackett's Third World War books from the 1970s, that will give you a very rough idea, although TTL's book mixes the history with personal narrative a bit more.

Does the Sino-Russian War really deserve its names? It started out as one, but escalated into a war for the future of East Asia. Wouldn't (Great) East Asia(ian) War be more appropriate?

Fair point. Asian Great War would work too, as it involved Central Asia as well as East Asia.

The Eastern War? The Manchurian War? I could see it ending up having several names, especially among the participants...

My rationale for calling it the Sino-Russian War is that it was strictly between China and Russia for almost two years, and by the time Turkestan, Japan and Korea jumped in, it already had an established name. But wars like this often do have several names, and Great Asian War is likely to be one of them (as the Nile War is sometimes called the Great African War). Maybe Great Asian War would gradually replace Sino-Russian War in accepted historiography.

How does the proclamation of the State of Mongolia affects Mongolia's status? According to the last world map, it was already basically an autonomous part of the Chinese Empire.

Its status is now internationally recognized, it can establish and receive embassies, and it has somewhat more control over local defense and foreign policy than it did before.

Assuming the Russian escorts are comparable to a P51 (long range, great fighter), and the Chinese jets to any of the 1st gen jet fighters of otl (and yes, neither of those assumptions is necessarily valid), the Chinese jets would be a shock to the Russians and a significant advantage to the Chinese, but not a total game changer. Not in THAT war.

You need Mig15s and F86 Sabres, or equivalent obviously, before the jets really out class the best piston planes.

Fair enough. As the update is written, the jets weren't a game-changer: they were no more than a temporary setback to the Russians, especially since China didn't have time to make as many of them as it needed. But yeah, given what you say, they'd be less of an advantage than I'd figured. I don't think anything substantive needs to change, but I could add that due to poor maneuverability, the jets gave China less of an edge than it thought they would.

(Back in reality, great job to JE on this one; very detailed overall. Where did you find the photo? One of the Green Books on the CBI? It looks like some element of the 22nd, 30th, or 38th division on the march past, with a P-40 overhead...)

It's a photo of a National Renewal Army unit (the KMT force) during the war with Japan.

Either India or Ethiopia and the Ottoman world will be next (and, if the latter, the update will shed some light on the why of that particular combination).
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yep; the 22nd, 30th, and 38th divisions were X Force, in the CBI;

It's a photo of a National Renewal Army unit (the KMT force) during the war with Japan.

Either India or Ethiopia and the Ottoman world will be next (and, if the latter, the update will shed some light on the why of that particular combination).


Yep; the 22nd, 30th, and 38th divisions were X Force, in the CBI; my guess is with the British-style shorts, it is one of their units.

Y Force, in Yunnan, is a possibility, but I don't think they would have had as much US or British type equipment; the rifles, for example, look like US-made M1917s, but I suppose they could be Chinese made Mausers. Helmets are definitely US standard.

Best,
 
Late to the party, but that update was brutal.

I keep thinking about the possible backlash that's going to result from all this in China. True, the region is now at peace, but it has over ten million dead soldiers and who knows how many civilians, and that's definitely going to affect public opinion on the streets afterwards. Besides that, what about Ma Qi's unpopular policies? They could be dismantled after his death, or will the National Salvation Government just let it be until the postwar settlement is achieved?

Other than that, I wonder how will the Overseas Chinese think about this. The ones from Malaya, Singapore and Sarawak will definitely support their homeland, and the war politics in all three places would cause firestorms in their Parliaments and the Council Negri (ah, OTL politics :rolleyes:), as well as influencing all the Malays, Hindus and Dayaks of the region. I can see smuggling, gunrunning, volunteers, charity events and a lot of protests in front of the Russian Embassy if they had one down there. Oy, I wonder how will the British in Singapore will handle this; that area has a large Chinese majority relative to the region.

The ones from the U.S, I'm much more mixed. Growing up in a country that emphasizes more freedom and equality relative to OTL, the U.S Chinese (or at least the more established of them) would not like Ma Qi's policies much. Still, China is their homeland, and that would probably sway some of them to support the emperor against Russia. Most of them would clamor for a democratic government, but their compatriots in Asia might think differently.

EDIT:

King Tut's tomb is fine - the Valley of the Kings was a long way from any strategic targets during the Nile War. It has probably been discovered by now, with Egypt generally more developed than OTL, and with a nationalist government eager to bring its history to light.

Hmm... I wonder if the 'Curse of the Pharaohs' would be as known as OTL. If I can recall, the whole thing was speculated by egyptologists and the European public as a response to the coincidental deaths and occurrences following the opening of King Tut's tomb. Maybe ITTL the whole thing would relegated to the realm of historical fiction.

The Lady of Dai's tomb is in southern China, so it's probably fine too. The terra-cotta army, unfortunately, may run into some real ones.

She'll probably be wondering why her distant descendants are messing up the country so badly, and why aren't there any grand parties anymore :p

As for the terracotta army, I hope whoever's battling outside Xian would at least try and remember what they're fighting on. Destroying the tomb of the First Chinese Emperor (or his army) would make an extremely good reason for the Chinese to hate the Russians more.

Speaking of historical sites, have the Europeans finally come up with how Great Zimbabwe came to be? Or are they still putting up theories on how "civilised outsiders" could've been the only ones to have built it because the locals are to "backward" to build such a thing? :mad:
 
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Yep; the 22nd, 30th, and 38th divisions were X Force, in the CBI; my guess is with the British-style shorts, it is one of their units.

Some digging on the internet revealed that the photo is of the 38th in Burma. For purposes of TTL, we'll assume that it showed recruits on a training march in southern China.

I keep thinking about the possible backlash that's going to result from all this in China. True, the region is now at peace, but it has over ten million dead soldiers and who knows how many civilians, and that's definitely going to affect public opinion on the streets afterwards. Besides that, what about Ma Qi's unpopular policies? They could be dismantled after his death, or will the National Salvation Government just let it be until the postwar settlement is achieved?

That's a tough one. On the one hand, the new government - even the former apparatchiks - wants to make a clean break, but on the other hand, with a country to rebuild, the crash industrialization programs are now more important than ever. My guess is that they'll look for sources of funding that will enable them to continue industrializing without Ma Qi's excesses - and that this will mean overseas Chinese capital.

I think you're right about how the overseas Chinese will react to the war (and, with Singapore a dominion by now, Britain won't be able to do that much to stop the Nonyas from joining in). And, in exchange for their help during the war and investment afterwards, they'll demand influence in post-Ma China. In fact, with the money they'll be contributing, they'll be influential whether they demand it or not. This will probably mean pressure to democratize, and also that postwar China will develop close ties with countries that have large Chinese diaspora communities.

As for the terracotta army, I hope whoever's battling outside Xian would at least try and remember what they're fighting on. Destroying the tomb of the First Chinese Emperor (or his army) would make an extremely good reason for the Chinese to hate the Russians more.

Maybe a smart Russian general kept that in mind. For that matter, Xian might not have seen heavy fighting - the front had just started to reach Shaanxi at the time of the Chinese counterattack, and might not have returned there by the time of the ceasefire. Xian city was surely bombed, but the tomb wouldn't have been a target.

Speaking of historical sites, have the Europeans finally come up with how Great Zimbabwe came to be? Or are they still putting up theories on how "civilised outsiders" could've been the only ones to have built it because the locals are to "backward" to build such a thing? :mad:

Even in OTL, Bantu origin was conjectured from the early 20th century - the reason the alternative theories lasted as long as they did had a lot to do with Rhodesian politics. In TTL, the settlers in Matabeleland will also push the outside-origin theory - but the ruins are on land controlled by the African Matabeleland government, so the settlers aren't able to suppress archaeology that doesn't match their prejudices.

And speaking of African archaeology, Arthur Evans' "Nigeria theory" of an Egyptian-influenced Nok culture is finally being debunked, with advances in Egyptology as well as discoveries in West Africa showing that the two were separate.
 
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