Kaiphranos
Donor
Hmm, a Russo-Chinese War... could this be our opportunity for some armored train action in TTL?
Tuku’aho Aleamotuʻa, Lord Vaea, Neither Colonies nor Powers: The Treaty Islands, 1900-60 (Royal Hawaiian Univ. Press, 1989)
Cochinchina makes me thinking to OTL Anjouan. Is there any possibility ITTL that a former colony returns to its former master or tries like Anjouan which unsuccessfully attempted in 1997?
But considering the geography, Russia is somewhat disadvantaged. At best, the Russian industries don't exceed the Soviets' ones at the same time and there is no reason that their repartition changes much. So, the easternmost parts of the Russian industrial heartland would be at best in Ural region.
Then the Russian forces in Manchuria are reliant on the Transsiberian (and its Transmanchurian extension), and I doubt that local Manchurian industry would be up to the task of supporting war effort against China. Still, I imagine that the Transsiberian has been upgraded since the Great War.
Then, if both Russia and China can trade space for time, it isn't actually about the same kind of space and consequences. Siberia may be vast, but if you control the Transsiberian, you virtually control the whole region. I don't find something similar to China. If Russians lose Siberia, they can forget any prospect of victory. Meanwhile, the territories China would fall back on are on the way of industrialization.
The nature of northern China geography is likely to produce major tank battles (I imagine a Battle of Gobi Desert with an atmosphere akin to Rommel campaigns in Libya).
Hmm, a Russo-Chinese War... could this be our opportunity for some armored train action in TTL?
Shoot, I go on a surprise vacation, and so much happens! I definitely occupied myself during the plane ride by starting through the forum pages from way back - I was already interested, but I must say that the background conversations and debates that accompanied your posts are even more fun than I thought! I had totally forgotten how the Napoleonic dynasty managed to hold onto power, and reading through it all made me really, really want to find a dibiterie while I was in Paris.
I can't but agree on your appreciation of Russian and Chinese industrial heartlands' vulnerability, but I have to point out that the war objective is Manchuria, not Siberia and even less industrial plants in European Russia. The further the Chinese could want to come would be close enough to the Transsiberian, to render it useless.That could be a two-edged sword, though. Russian troops will start out a lot closer to the Chinese heartland than vice versa. China would have to advance a long way to threaten the Russian industrial plant, and even strategic bombing with 1940s aircraft might be a stretch, while the northern Chinese cities would be within range of Russian bombers at the beginning of the war. If China falls back, it would be doing so through more valuable territory than Russia, although as you say, if Russia loses Siberia it will be very hard if not impossible to regain a strategic advantage.
It could refer to USSR vs Third Reich. I agree it could be a double-edged parallel as the Red Army finally took Berlin, but contrary to Stalin who had rooted any opposition, Ma Qi has still, seemingly, to deal with opponents to his agrarian reform, and unless Ma Qi be willing to cause a famine like Mao did, the peasant class should remain very important to ensure recolts and thus remain an important source of opposition.In many ways, it will be an even match - the more populous and rapidly industrializing rising power against the more developed and experienced but smaller one.
That could be a two-edged sword, though. Russian troops will start out a lot closer to the Chinese heartland than vice versa. China would have to advance a long way to threaten the Russian industrial plant, and even strategic bombing with 1940s aircraft might be a stretch, while the northern Chinese cities would be within range of Russian bombers at the beginning of the war. If China falls back, it would be doing so through more valuable territory than Russia, although as you say, if Russia loses Siberia it will be very hard if not impossible to regain a strategic advantage.
In many ways, it will be an even match - the more populous and rapidly industrializing rising power against the more developed and experienced but smaller one.
To me, it seems that Russia has the initial advantage; the wide open spaces will make a power with a more developed industrial base to produce aircraft and armour important. The other advantage that Russia has is that it isn't an implicit threat to all of its neighbours in the way China is. The result of a clearly victorious China will be a state with a clear claim to regional hegemony. Japan, Siam, Turkestan, even India and the European powers all will have an interest in making sure China doesn't get too big for its britches, or carving bits and pieces off. China might be able to get Turkestan on board through concessions, or at least take it out of contention through sponsoring revolts, but China is going to have to deal with keeping substantial numbers of troops back to defend their other borders at best, and a multi-front war at worst.
To me, it seems that Russia has the initial advantage; the wide open spaces will make a power with a more developed industrial base to produce aircraft and armour important.
The East Indies are really interesting. Do you think that *Malaysia could join Nusantara? With its multi-tiered government structure, the monarchies could get complete autonomy while their citizens could benefit from closer ties with Batavia.
Given the cooperation over Sabah, is it also possible that some sort of East Indies Customs Union is created between *Malaysia, Nusantara, and the Philippine states?
Just a note, I noticed that someone has proposed an ISOT involving Malê Rising in the ASB section.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=318421
Essentially, it's considering what would happen if France, Austria-Hungary, and Russia from Malê's timeline on March 7, 1893 are transported to OTL. So far there isn't much discussion, but I think it's interesting to consider. Personally, I'd be interested in the reverse, with people from our world being sent into the Malê world. Even so, it would be cool to see where this idea could go.
The East Indies are really interesting. Do you think that *Malaysia could join Nusantara? With its multi-tiered government structure, the monarchies could get complete autonomy while their citizens could benefit from closer ties with Batavia.
Given the cooperation over Sabah, is it also possible that some sort of East Indies Customs Union is created between *Malaysia, Nusantara, and the Philippine states?
Problem is that (barring ATL butterflies) the Chinese and larger-than-OTL Indian minorities might abhor such a union as it might reduce their political, economic and social presence in the Dominion of Malaya. Even in OTL the combined Chinese-Hindu community formed over 40% of Malaya's populace when it declared independence, and they were not quiet about it.
Speaking of which, does Malaya have it's own home army? I remember there being a huge debate about it during Malaya's decolonization: the Malays wanted a permanent army with everyone participating while the Chinese wanted to be out of it.
Just a note, I noticed that someone has proposed an ISOT involving Malê Rising in the ASB section.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=318421
Essentially, it's considering what would happen if France, Austria-Hungary, and Russia from Malê's timeline on March 7, 1893 are transported to OTL.
I've been thinking of a gate between OTL northen Nigeria and the same region TTL. Principally, because I want to see Boko Haram's pointly little heads explode, metaphorically and literally.
Excellent update. It is great to see the Abacars spreading out. I think it is appropriate that these events are taking place at this TL 100 year mark. It really shows just how much of an impact Paolo the Elder had even indirectly in changing the world so dramatically.
Another amazing narrative update, Jonathan. I'm enthralled at how much the Abacars had grown and how the world has changed around them, never mind all those names we knew from your earlier updates!
I agree with Funmilayo on the secession votes. The best thing for the region in TTL is for a Nigerian Federation to be created, either as a dominion or, more likely as an independent nation. I feel like there will be a lot problems further down the line if part of the region is independent but others are still British.
BTW how is decolonization progressing in the rest of Africa, are any of the German, Portuguese, or French colonies starting to demand independence yet?
Also, I noticed you said that Noura was going to be teaching at the University of Kazembe, what is she going to teach?
Finally, since part of this update occurs in Lagos OTL's largest African city, I am wondering what Africa's largest cities are in TTL. Since large parts of Africa are more developed then they were in OTL, I'm sure some, such as Zanzibar and Ilorin are likely far more important then they were in OTL.
I'm sorta hoping there will be a Yoruba movement for having an ethnic state similar to the Italian unification.
However, there is the Japanese position.
In my opinion, it is unlikely that Japan allies with China for its mercantilist regime has even less interest to see a strong China appearing on the continent, a China that could potentially compete with Japan and that is already showing signs of that with industrialization.
Still, if I was Japan, I would merely wait and see Russia and China ''destroying'' each other while taking advantage to undermine both nations by playing on both, selling weapons to both, and there is little risk that Russia might contest it as it hasn't either the will or even the means to contest Japanese domination on the sealines.
Regarding Korea, it is another opportunity to take advantage of while Russia is occupied but it could backfire as well, as the Court and the King, who I understood as willing to initiate a shift from Russian to Japanese sphere, is so corrupt (or so it seems) that a popular revolt could overthrow the King; if Japan was to intervene directly, it could draw attention from Russia.
Continuing on the latter remark, we could also see the Japanese intervention and Russian reaction as a factor deciding Japan to formally enter the war on Chinese's side.
If we consider such a scenario of Japanese involvement, it would only give a respite to China (to deal with internal dissent). Bases in Kamchatka aren't susceptible to be a threat given the region isolation from Siberia with all the way to Yakutsk and the Lena River being a hostile ground.
Japanese activity in the region, over the whole of Okhotsk Sea shores would be mainly raids, but the only valuable objectives I see as at their reach are the Anadyrsk valley and the ports of Okhotsk and Ayan (and other that could have been built by Russians ITTL).
Japanese main focus should be Vladivostok, the Priamur (an offensive supplied from Sakhalin along the Amur, beginning with Nikolaevsk), Korea (offensive to the north, but we know what happened during the Great War when they attempted that). Then, there would be an expeditionnary corps sent to Zhili and maybe an attempted offensive along the coast in coordination with the navy to take Liaodong peninsula and link up with forces in Korea.
But I would be skeptical about the possibility of an involvment. Such a scenario could have fitted with a militarist minded Japan, but not with a mercantilist Japan. War with Russia and supporting China are too risky on both short and long run.
I think Japanese decision makers have to realize that a hard nationalist revanche China winning decisively is very very much not in their interests. Whatever short term gratitude and land it might generate, Taiwan is the next logical target. Assuming that any regime that wins Manchuria stays in power (which I think is likely) Next time there a bump in the road domestically it's going to be very tempting for the Chinese to go after the next logical target. Add to that, without Russian influence, China would be by far the largest power in the area, and Japan's strategic situation starts looking increasingly bad in that case.
I think the ideal situation for Japan is accommodation with Russia, ideally a formal alliance plus trade links. Any other solution leaves them vulnerable to Chinese domination in the long term.
Thanks to everyone who posted thoughts about the Russia-China conflict - I'll take everything on board but will hold my counsel for now. Can anyone point me to a good physical map of the border regions?