It occurs to me that with all of Bengal and the more populous parts of Pakistan in the Republic proper, but much of Hindu-majority India not, the Muslims have a somewhat larger slice of the Republic's population and more of a political voice than they would have in an OTL United India...
Malê Rising
- Thread starter Jonathan Edelstein
- Start date
The Sandman
Banned
Despite its current status as a Siamese possession, I think that the eventual fate of the main portion of Burma (the Irrawaddy valley and tributaries, more or less) is going to be a mostly-independent state with Indian influence on its foreign policy a la Hyderabad and Nepal. From both a geographic and economic standpoint, it looks towards India more than Siam, especially given direct Indian control over the Irrawaddy delta. Of course, if Siam thinks it can overrun Rangoon, Andhra Pradesh and Arakan quickly enough, they might try to conquer those provinces in order to obviate the issue, but I suspect that war would end very badly for Siam.
The non-state commission overseeing the Nile is likely to be the end result of the impending water war, once Egypt and Ethiopia have both exhausted themselves for no real gain and their Great Power sponsors/partners can thus push them to find some way of agreeing on water usage. Of course, Buganda and the other states between Lake Not-Victoria and the Sudd are likely to have their own input, given that they control the actual source of the White Nile.
And it really is fascinating to see these glimpses of a world where Africa, the Middle East and South/Southeast Asia have had the chance to continue developing their own cultural and societal structures without European settler colonies or resource extraction colonies overwriting them to anywhere near the degree of OTL. Just one of the things that makes me wish we lived in that world instead of the one where we had a century and a half of nightmares (and counting, in some places) instead.
The non-state commission overseeing the Nile is likely to be the end result of the impending water war, once Egypt and Ethiopia have both exhausted themselves for no real gain and their Great Power sponsors/partners can thus push them to find some way of agreeing on water usage. Of course, Buganda and the other states between Lake Not-Victoria and the Sudd are likely to have their own input, given that they control the actual source of the White Nile.
And it really is fascinating to see these glimpses of a world where Africa, the Middle East and South/Southeast Asia have had the chance to continue developing their own cultural and societal structures without European settler colonies or resource extraction colonies overwriting them to anywhere near the degree of OTL. Just one of the things that makes me wish we lived in that world instead of the one where we had a century and a half of nightmares (and counting, in some places) instead.
For those who may have missed them, the update is at post 4547 and the 1930 map of India is at 4559.
Thanks, and I'll definitely let you know if I plan to set another scene in Halifax (which I very well might, given its connection to Sierra Leone).
The people in the five "princely unions" vote in Indian elections and are represented in the Indian parliament - the only difference between them and ordinary provinces is that they have "houses of lords" and the former rulers have certain local judicial powers.
Even so, though, Madras and most of the independent princely states, which don't vote in Indian elections, are also Hindu-majority, so you're right that Muslims have more proportional voting power. This, along with Muslim prominence in the Congress and the building of intercommunal institutions during the 1880s-1910s, is one of the reasons why there was no significant movement for a separate Muslim state in TTL.
All true, but on the other hand, it's culturally closer to Siam, and is Buddhist where India is Hindu and Muslim. Upper Burma will fight both Siamese and Indian domination, but its long-term fate (like that of the Irrawaddy delta) could go either way. It will probably be a generation or so before the matter is decided.
And other countries as well - the watershed goes all the way down to Burundi and the northern Zanzibari empire, so a number of states might get dragged into the conflict or play a part in its resolution. I won't go into much more detail now, because the crisis is only a few updates away.
There have been nightmares enough in TTL, both European-made and homegrown, and in fact, one of the consequences of a more equitable colonial world is that Africans and Asians sometimes have more latitude to oppress their own people. But hopefully it is and will be a world in which more people are able to realize their human potential.
The United States in the 1930s will be next.
Thanks, and I'll definitely let you know if I plan to set another scene in Halifax (which I very well might, given its connection to Sierra Leone).
The people in the five "princely unions" vote in Indian elections and are represented in the Indian parliament - the only difference between them and ordinary provinces is that they have "houses of lords" and the former rulers have certain local judicial powers.
Even so, though, Madras and most of the independent princely states, which don't vote in Indian elections, are also Hindu-majority, so you're right that Muslims have more proportional voting power. This, along with Muslim prominence in the Congress and the building of intercommunal institutions during the 1880s-1910s, is one of the reasons why there was no significant movement for a separate Muslim state in TTL.
All true, but on the other hand, it's culturally closer to Siam, and is Buddhist where India is Hindu and Muslim. Upper Burma will fight both Siamese and Indian domination, but its long-term fate (like that of the Irrawaddy delta) could go either way. It will probably be a generation or so before the matter is decided.
And other countries as well - the watershed goes all the way down to Burundi and the northern Zanzibari empire, so a number of states might get dragged into the conflict or play a part in its resolution. I won't go into much more detail now, because the crisis is only a few updates away.
There have been nightmares enough in TTL, both European-made and homegrown, and in fact, one of the consequences of a more equitable colonial world is that Africans and Asians sometimes have more latitude to oppress their own people. But hopefully it is and will be a world in which more people are able to realize their human potential.
The United States in the 1930s will be next.
Burma could be looking to China to break free from its entanglement . Is its capital in Mandalay? One thing that could really steer bad blood between India and Burma (that is still under Siamese patronage right?) is the fact India will be looking to develop the Irrawaddy delta to feed its population and thus will bring more and more Indians (and we can see today, Buddhist don't have the best relations with Muslim there).
The idea of a governing body for the Nile is nice but I think it will need some work to be truly applicable.
The idea of a governing body for the Nile is nice but I think it will need some work to be truly applicable.
Uh, Jonathan? Looks like your TL has inspired a secret over at Fandom Secrets. Look at no. 5
http://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/988837.html#cutid1
http://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/988837.html#cutid1
Last edited:
Barry Bull
Donor
I would say the OTL TVA sort of fit the mold, even though it is a federal corporation. It transcends state boundaries and employed armed police, so it is a 'state within a state' in essence.
TR's getting up there in years - he'd be well into his seventies by 1930. But this was a time when LGBT rights were being debated even in OTL, and TTL's hygiene-based sexual conservatism isn't necessarily the kind that would be hostile to the idea. I forget who it was, but someone earlier in the thread said that monogamous gay couples might be respected more than straight swingers, and the frankness induced by the Congo fever epidemic could create an opening. Maybe Teddy does have one more crusade in him.
The capital is indeed in Mandalay, and a Chinese alliance is one of the options Upper Burma is exploring, although it will have to be careful that the alliance doesn't turn into vassalage.
There were already Indians who had moved there under the Raj, and the Burmese resented them in both OTL and TTL. Right now India has the support of the Muslims in Arakan, but the Irrawaddy delta only signed on with India to avoid British reconquest (and even then the alliance was controversial). I've mentioned that both Siam and India will regret being involved in Burma, and it seems certain that there will be trouble before the Indians and Burmese come to a modus vivendi.
It will definitely need some work - right now they're just talking about concepts around the dinner table. Who will defend and police the Nile, for instance, and who will try cases of people (or nations!) who break its laws? Who will actually oversee the distribution of water resources?
There will be many details to be worked out if this scheme is implemented (assuming it ever is - but on the other hand, Paulo is a diplomat and has ways to make himself heard).
I like the collage s/he put together.
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey might also be an analogue - not a Federal project, but a cooperative venture between states, with its own board of managers and police. Something like the Øresund Region might also be a partial model.
Hi, Jonathan. I wanted to ask you something about Italy. Is the current monarch Victor Emanuel III or has he been butterflied? And what about Gabriele d'Annunzio?
We haven't seen much of Italy since the aftermath of the Great War. I wish I had the time to work out an Italian guest post. I had some vague ideas about it (involving anarchism, devolution, and a restored Republic of Venice, and yeah, a close alt-sibling of D'Annunzio may be involved), but real life is being chaotic.
I may PM JE next week.
Barry Bull
Donor
The TVA is the only institution that has such a large mandate (territorially) I can think of, both national or international. The Port Authority is a bit smaller.
I'd be interested to see that, actually. It's in line with my own medium-term plans for Italy - I was thinking more in terms of Venetian autonomy than a restored republic, but on the other hand, one or more republics could exist within a devolved Italian union.
As for the king: The House of Savoy is still on the throne, and the current king is the son of Umberto I, and would thus probably be named Victor Emmanuel and have a broadly similar upbringing and character to his OTL brother. On the other hand, Umberto had a considerably longer reign in TTL due to his, ahem, different relationship with the anarchist movement, so VE3 would have become king much later in life and might have a different outlook on his position and duties.
Geographically, you're right (or at least I can't think of anything similar that has a broader territorial jurisdiction than the TVA), but I was also thinking in terms of structure, such as the Port Authority having its own police and civil service rather than relying on an overarching federal government.
You WILL receive a PM from me in some days, God willing. However, the "Venetian Republic" I had in mind is nothing like the Serenissima of old.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26949733
Sounds similar to the case Jonathan was involved in quashing. I had to look it up to check it wasn't the same one. Any connection between the two?
Sounds similar to the case Jonathan was involved in quashing. I had to look it up to check it wasn't the same one. Any connection between the two?
According to its web site, it's essentially a liaison/advisory body with a permanent staff - it has no direct authority, but its institutional expertise and intergovernmental participation give it clout in watershed management matters. The Nile authority, if one is created, might be something like that, but with teeth.
The only connection is that the cases were prosecuted by the same office at more or less the same time. The late 1980s and early 90s were a period when crime was high and the police were out of control, and a number of wrongful convictions are coming to light.
Update most likely this weekend.
It's disturbing to realize it took anywhere from twenty to thirty years for these to come to light.
Guys, guys! The 1930 map is complete-ish! It lacks the legend and the notes, but everything else is done! So if everyone would please check if all the borders are okay; that would be great. But due to university obligations I won't be able to make the changes and add the legend and stuff until next weekend.
Enjoy!
EDIT: Added Brunei and changed the Franco-Italian border (I can't believe that I forgot that Savoy and Nice [but not Menton] are still French).
Enjoy!
EDIT: Added Brunei and changed the Franco-Italian border (I can't believe that I forgot that Savoy and Nice [but not Menton] are still French).
Last edited:
Where is Araucania, and what is the green and orange striped stuff in the Andes?