Malê Rising

Interesting updates of late, especially the settlement of Ulstermen to Australasia (interesting settlement spot, but a good one) and the recent West Indies post. I'm a tad sad at the notion of their Dominion likely not surviving, but there are good reasons it didn't work IOTL. Granted, this TL's system seems a bit more doable.

As an aside, I do have a question that's sorta related to the issue at hand: would a British Cuba help or hurt such a Caribbean Dominion? I'd think hurt due to the labor imbalance it'd likely introduce, but then again maybe not so much if it just focuses on the bigger islands (Jamaica and Trinidad, perhaps Barbados if stretched a tad).
 
Oh, there was quite a bit of controversy over sending Indian troops to join the British relief force, and they made a point of not being under British command. It was only the idea of Indians in Trinidad and British Guiana being drafted into Venezuelan forced-labor battalions that persuaded India to participate - the desire to rescue members of the Indian diaspora proved stronger than distrust of Britain. Joint projects won't become a regular thing for decades, although the ice has now been broken.

I was also thinking of them being considered a fair dealer to help deal with the Abacar dictator.
 
Blanco did not give himself much time for that project before baiting the Lion; I doubt much more than some surveying and drawing up of plans had happened; I'd be surprised if the necessary eminent domains had been applied and people served notice they would have to move. I doubt any serious excavations could have begun even on already publicly owned land.
As JE said, there was about a 2 year period after the forced federation and announcement of the project for there to be plans and possibly the beginnings of construction. It might well be a national improvement brought up several times in Colombia as time goes on.

Sure, the less American controlled Nicaragua canal has a number of major advantages over the hypothetical Panama canal, not least of which is the fact that it is far less of a puppet and explicitly American project. At the same time, I can see it as a plan that gets dusted off every now and then as a proposed infrastructure improvement in Colombia to improve revenue. If the Colombia-Peru-Ecuador alliance actually did persevere for a long time to eventual closer union against the threat of a resurgent Venezuela or other perceived threats, it could also be proposed as a major military investment to ensure safe and quick passage of fleets from Peru and Ecuador to the Caribbean to assist.

I'm not saying it will be built, by any means, but I could easily see it as something that resurfaces a lot with certain interest groups in Colombia now that the idea and plans are laid down.
 
First, I must apologize for my egregious misunderstandings of the situation in Central America. I guess there is no "Central American Federation" whatsoever, merely the legacy of a recent quasi-alliance against the Yankee invasions, and that Britain played a peripheral role if any at all. :eek:

Regarding support for a canal in Panama--I hadn't considered the strategic interests of the local powers; that is a good point indeed! However, Colombia, Peru and Ecuador are all rather poor nations at the moment, I gather--anyway Colombia's relative poverty even by regional standards was mentioned in the post, and I see no reason for Ecuador to be much better off than OTL. Most of what I know about Ecuador's development I got from reading Axis of Andes; DValdron wrote at considerable and much appreciated length about the history, up into the 1930s when the divergences become effective, of Ecuador, her neighbors, and Chile. There I got the impression that of the three alliance members suggested here, Colombia was the rich one!:eek:

Nevertheless, Peru and even Ecuador had navies of a sort. If Colombia can find some sort of economic niche that raises her ability to fund a middling strong navy then I suppose the idea of resuming the work would become more and more attractive, especially if Colombia can attract the lion's share of the funding from investors in richer nations overseas. They'd have to be open about their plans to use it militarily, as a means of gaining flexibility in basing their naval ships in either ocean. Venezuela remains a potential threat though not in the immediate future, but with her oil revenue, Colombia has an obvious need to maintain a defense capability.

To be sure, there is no need to stress the canal's strategic function; the emphasis should be on economic opportunity, for Colombia and her neighbors, and for the world as a whole. I merely point out, they should not be seen as disingenuously denying military contingencies and then deploying them--that would look bad.

Or, simply building the canal with a lot of British capital and a firm, preferably treaty-based understanding that Britain is interested in Colombia remaining inviolate (as a quid pro quo for free use of the canal herself) they might save the expense of actually building a navy--there would always be some RN ships around.

Some USAians, particularly the ones with a big financial stake in the Nicaragua Canal, might be irritated at the British, and the sun is setting on the Empire pretty fast--I'm amazed Britain itself is not once again deep in financial and deeper, structural, economic crisis. The whole British economy was built around being the kingpin of a global imperial system and the most important part of that is gone--perhaps free trade with India is resuming and to an extent filling the gap left by losing India as a possession, but it is in India's interest to escape any strongly binding ties and Germany must be an increasingly attractive competitor as trade partner for whatever goods and services the Indians still find it necessary or desirable to buy from Europeans.

But back to the Americans (I've been meaning to sound the alarm about Britain's precarious economic position for some time now, whereas Jonathan's posts have suggested a considerably rosier outcome than I thought possible without revolutionary reforms, hence the aside...:eek:)...the big difference between the USA of this timeline from OTL is that there is considerably more political diversity that approaches real power. The relationship between the British and USA has been frustrating for the most greedy of the would-be imperialists, but their ambitions are challenged and checked by other US interests who don't find American isolation--or rather, refraining from getting into fracases overseas--they aren't against peaceful private relations at all--inglorious. They may or may not denounce the sins and crimes of the imperialist powers, but they certainly don't want to crusade against them, and Britain has taken a visible fall, clearly has been chastised for these "sins." Such Americans, knowing that one canal is going to be available to them, won't find others desiring an alternate one so ominous, and won't believe it is the business of the US government to guarantee monopoly revenues for a bunch of private speculators, however prominent and powerful this clique collectively is; for everyone who regards them as the leaders and pioneers of the national enterprise, others will have more critical things to say about them.:p

In short, even if the Colombian canal scheme is indeed largely British funded and involves long-lasting and formal ties between Britain and a western hemisphere republic or three, while some Yankees will surely cry foul on grounds of the Monroe Doctrine, others will point out that as long as it is a matter of mutual relations between sovereign free republics and a European power, it isn't an actual violation. And that it is rather late in the day to complain about a strong informal British hegemony in South America!

So I don't think, if this proposal draws interest in London, that they will have to worry too much about offending the USA. Simply making it clear, through the content of the treaties and through opening the canal to all comers, US flagged ships included, that they aren't operating the canal as a British possession, should give American anti-imperialists plenty of rope to rein in the ever-frustrated expansionists.

I also allowed, in previous posts, that the relative cost of a Panamanian canal would drop over the decades, as civil engineering technology advances. We are already approaching the 1930s, in a world that is somewhat ahead of ours technically.

Passing time also puts the political situation into flux, of course. American imperialism might rise again; rival powers to Britain might view building the canal as an opportunity--if things get tense, then I'd expect that even a non-imperialist USA would grow understandably more concerned about a second canal being built with ties to some European power or other, if they look to be ready to fight again. We have been told they won't start another Great War, but no one in the timeline can be sure of that! The reason I've been fixated on Britain as the candidate patron of the canal is that Britain is, as per OTL, a "satiated," status-quo power, a status quo to which the Americans are adapted. One with a sinking star too, so that if things do go to hell, the Yankees would have some confidence they can push aside and take over from--the imperialists in the USA might be more worried about the canal enhancing Colombia and her local allies' status and leverage than that the British will use it for some nefarious purpose--if they can't block the project they will probably come to hope Britain does stabilize and stay in charge, rather than a revolving door of rising third parties!:p
 

Sulemain

Banned
JE said I could do a narrative update set in the recent kerfuffle, so as a little taster, he's a little description:

RADAR-directed Gloster Gladiators flown by the RNAS against Venezuelan Air Force P-26 Peashooters :) .
 
I for one suspect that that many future projects will be labelled "Commonwealth-India" projects.

And if India joins the Commonwealth again?

The way things appear to be going at the moment, TTL's Commonwealth may end up as something between the OTL Commonwealth and the empire. Such a closer union may require more unity of institutions, and may not admit countries that don't recognize the monarchy. If so, then India is pretty much guaranteed to stay out.

A close relationship with many joint projects, however, could eventually happen. When all's said and done, India has an English-speaking educated class, and many of its legal and political institutions have British roots. Once the bitterness of the revolution fades, there will be natural points of contact for cooperation.

Interesting updates of late, especially the settlement of Ulstermen to Australasia (interesting settlement spot, but a good one)

Australasia had plenty of free land to spare, and some of its states were anxious to recruit more white immigrants - as I've mentioned, the White Australia policy was never enacted on a regional level in TTL, but the large number of Asian immigrants in Queensland, Fiji and NSW has caused racial anxiety there and elsewhere.

I'm a tad sad at the notion of their Dominion likely not surviving, but there are good reasons it didn't work IOTL. Granted, this TL's system seems a bit more doable.

Don't count it out yet, and even if it fails, it will have a legacy.

As an aside, I do have a question that's sorta related to the issue at hand: would a British Cuba help or hurt such a Caribbean Dominion? I'd think hurt due to the labor imbalance it'd likely introduce, but then again maybe not so much if it just focuses on the bigger islands (Jamaica and Trinidad, perhaps Barbados if stretched a tad).

I'd guess that depends on when Cuba becomes British. If it's in the 19th century, then there would be vast cultural differences between it and the rest of the British Caribbean, including a different political and legal tradition, which would make merger difficult. On the other hand, if Britain conquered Cuba during the various Caribbean wars of the 17th and 18th century, it might become just as British as the various French islands that came under British rule at that time. It would dwarf the other islands, which would basically be Cuban dependencies, but that could cut both ways - if all the governing institutions were on Cuba, for instance, then inertia might lead them to stay there after independence.

In any event, Cuba isn't and won't be British in TTL - the people of this Caribbean (like ours) will sometimes wonder what might have happened if it had all come under the rule of one empire, but it will be an academic exercise and nothing more.

I was also thinking of them being considered a fair dealer to help deal with the Abacar dictator.

That was more a case of them being the only ones in the region who could act as guarantors, combined with the postwar government making a real attempt to break with the past. The Yoruba city-states didn't entirely trust Britain, but they knew that it was the only game in town.

I'm not saying it will be built, by any means, but I could easily see it as something that resurfaces a lot with certain interest groups in Colombia now that the idea and plans are laid down.

This was pretty much what I had in mind - given that a start has actually been made, many Colombians will want to finish it for both defensive and economic purposes. Money will be the problem, and (pace Shevek23) Britain is undergoing a period of retrenchment and is thus unlikely to be a major investor, but there are other potential sources.

I've been meaning to sound the alarm about Britain's precarious economic position for some time now, whereas Jonathan's posts have suggested a considerably rosier outcome than I thought possible without revolutionary reforms, hence the aside...:eek:

My estimate is that TTL's Britain is in roughly the same position that OTL Britain occupied in 1946 after a similar sequence of depression and war - this Britain didn't get American lend-lease aid, of course, but it did get a great deal of postwar help from the dominions. British power is diminished, and the pound has probably lost as much value as the OTL pound did after WW2, both of which are manifest in the sudden push to devolve more responsibility to the empire. It isn't out of the running by a long shot, though, and its ties with the remaining empire/emerging Commonwealth help it punch above its weight.

I won't say much more about the canal now, given that I haven't decided if it will even be finished, but as mentioned above, I'd expect Britain to be only one of the players and not the largest one at that.

A poor Colombia... I think there aren't enough Conservatives/Liberals to blame.

The regionalism and class conflict of OTL are still there, and unfortunately are factors that Colombia's neighbors can exploit. There will be better times ahead eventually, though: growth and modernization will help to unify the country, and the Venezuelan war has at least encouraged a sense that all Colombians are in this together.
 
Excellent update. Didn't see a lot that coming. Figured it would be more Venezuela trying to just annex Guiana and not a regional war. And whatever the fate of the West Indies Dominion, it's sure to be an interesting ride.

One thing that I'm really looking forward to seeing is the little seed of how popular music might be formed that you dropped with the Jamaican diaspora.:cool:
 

Sulemain

Banned
One thing that will probably aid the UK is that unlike in the OTL Great War, a large part of it's merchant marine isn't sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic. Surface Raiders are dangerous, but nowhere near as dangerous as submarines.
 
And whatever the fate of the West Indies Dominion, it's sure to be an interesting ride.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the West Indies, one thing I learned today was that Dominica had a "coloured" (presumably mixed-race) legislative majority in 1838. In OTL. Now I really need to figure out how the black and mixed-race political class, which seems to have been larger than elsewhere in the British Caribbean, fared during the Imperial period and after.

One thing that I'm really looking forward to seeing is the little seed of how popular music might be formed that you dropped with the Jamaican diaspora.:cool:

There are at least three factors in play here: steadier (albeit slower) flow of immigration into the United States, leading to more sustained influence from eastern and southern Europe; an earlier "mainstreaming" of African-American culture; and immigration from Jamaica, Haiti and West Africa. I'm imagining the Mento-Congo style as reggae meets Afrobeat meets blues, without electricity but with an extra helping of social commentary.

I wonder, though, if the blending of Afro-Atlantic cultures might lead to more musical homogeneity and a decline of regional styles, leading to "purist" movements forming in reaction.

One thing that will probably aid the UK is that unlike in the OTL Great War, a large part of it's merchant marine isn't sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic. Surface Raiders are dangerous, but nowhere near as dangerous as submarines.

True - the UK never had to deal with anything like OTL's unrestricted submarine warfare. Submarines were in an embryonic stage during the Great War, with some used for home defense at the very end but nothing suitable for blue water. And the Indian war didn't feature submarines on any large scale, certainly none that would threaten British trade.

Busy week at work, but the Ottoman update will hopefully be ready this weekend.
 
There are at least three factors in play here: steadier (albeit slower) flow of immigration into the United States, leading to more sustained influence from eastern and southern Europe; an earlier "mainstreaming" of African-American culture; and immigration from Jamaica, Haiti and West Africa. I'm imagining the Mento-Congo style as reggae meets Afrobeat meets blues, without electricity but with an extra helping of social commentary.

Sounds quite like some of the later stuff Fela Kuti did. ;)
 
I hate to keep going on, but an update concerning the new states of Eastern Europe would also be nice :) .

I've been tossing some ideas around in my head that concern Eastern Europe, specifically related to one of my key interests, the Roma. JE, any interest? I could probably write something up tomorrow, I'm taking the day off from my crush of research papers.
 
I'm imagining the Mento-Congo style as reggae meets Afrobeat meets blues, without electricity but with an extra helping of social commentary.

Sounds quite like some of the later stuff Fela Kuti did. ;)

There's probably some elements of gnawa music in it too - the original Hausa kind, not the Moroccan variant - via West African Islamic spirituals. The folk music of the lowland Carolinas and Georgia would also have increasing gnawa influences going back to the period after the ACW when ties with Sierra Leone - and, through it, the Malê-Hausa-Fulani-Yoruba religious reformism - were established.

I hate to keep going on, but an update concerning the new states of Eastern Europe would also be nice :) .

I've been tossing some ideas around in my head that concern Eastern Europe, specifically related to one of my key interests, the Roma. JE, any interest? I could probably write something up tomorrow, I'm taking the day off from my crush of research papers.

By all means - just run it by me first. I'm always grateful for help developing the non-core parts of this world.

I'll probably also revisit Europe sometime in the 1930s.
 

Sulemain

Banned
With permission from JE :) .

Off the coast of Trinidad, 1925.
Two Carrier Task Forces centred around HMS Powerful and HMS Terrible are tasked with escorting a Royal Marine assault force.

"Bandits at ten thousand feet, at 10 O'clock to you, move to intercept" came the voice through the radio, the voice of the fighter controller on the picket ship, calm and professional. EMR*provided a massive advantage thought Squadron Commander Jonathan Jones. Location, direction, we know they’re coming before they see us. He relayed his the information he had received to his squadron and finished off with a “tally ho chaps!”

He gunned the engine, the 900hp radial engine roaring into life. He put the aircraft into a shallow dive; followed by his squadron. The Christchurch Aviation Company Warrior* was a fantastic aircraft for; incredibly agile with its bi-plane design, fast, a top speed with 240MPH. Four .50inch MGs is a hell of a bunch. The Venies don’t stand a chance.

“Looks like Darts* gentleman”. He glanced at the enemy aircraft again. “And Leviathan* bombers”. He grimaced. Those bloody Yanks sure know how to make a big bomber. With four engines and 6 machine guns in various positions, it was a tough target. “2 Section approach the bombers from below and from the front, 1 Section keep the fighters occupied” he ordered. And with that, the battle began.

He found himself shortly afterwards engaged with a Dart Fighter. The Dart was a nimble American biplane, but slower and less heavily armed then his Warrior. Bloody tough though. But even the toughest machine will fall when four .50Inch MGs fire at it, and so did the Dart. He managed to shoot down another Dart, and damage a Leviathan before the battle was over.
“Jolly good show chaps. All hostile aircraft destroyed or running away”.

*EMR, Electro-Magnetic Reconnaissance, ITTL term for RADAR. Two devices one for direction and one for range, mounted on picket ships, is the best the RN can do with this level of tech.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Gladiator with more fire-power but very slightly slower
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F2F
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_XB-15
 
Guest Post: The Roma

p9QXQxv.jpg

Marie Soltesz, Opre: A Modern History of the Roma (Berlin: National Public Press, 1998)

“The Great War disproportionately affected Romani communities. Most Roma were concentrated in a few states: The Russian Empire, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia and Bohemia-Moravia. All of these states except for Romania saw immense devastation due to the war. Communities were stripped of men for the meat-grinder, crops were burnt and whole populations uprooted in the path of advancing armies. The Roma themselves suffered more than others. Most Roma were impoverished agricultural labourers or itinerant tradespeople, and Roma were generally clannish and isolated from their neighbours. This made them the last in line for government aid, particularly when states, seeing Roma as natural wanderers, expected them to care for themselves. Like most communities, many Romani men were drafted into national armies and died fighting on the Balkan front.

The end of the war brought yet more misery, with the ethnic conflicts that followed. Hungarian, German, Slovak and Romanian armies, hoping to consolidate control over their territory, frowned upon the presence of “foreign” ethnic groups. The Roma, who lacked a homeland all together, were distrusted by all as spies and wanderers. Roma were thus persecuted and periodically massacred by all sides, with many communities displaced by fighting in Croatia, the Bergenland, Slovakia and Transylvania. When the dust of the conflict finally settled, close to 15 percent of the region’s Romani population had died from massacres, starvation and disease.

For many Roma, the message was clear: their old heartland in the Balkans was no longer inhabitable. A surprising number of people found a place of refuge in the Kingdom of Eastern Transylvania, where the Romanian puppet king István Bethlen, desperate to repopulate his devastated land, recognized their language and customs. Still, many others fled the heartland…

Some Roma migrated to the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans, whose Balkan territory had been depopulated, recruited Romani refugees with offers of progressive tenancy arrangements or even free land for experienced farmers or Muslims. The Ottomans saw Roma, who lacked a strong national movement or intellectual class, as settlers who would remain quiet and help dilute the restive populations of Greeks, Bulgarians and other South Slavs, particularly Bulgaria. While this stream slowed to a trickle after the 1911 Ottoman Revolution and the granting of Bulgarian autonomy, Roma now made up close to 20 percent of the region’s population.

Other Roma moved north: Germany’s post-war labour shortage had created openings for hundreds of thousands of jobs. Romani labourers trickled into Germany’s industrial cities, often settling amongst the German Roma Sinti and assimilating into their customs. While the often-illiterate Romani workers were often discriminated against, given the worst and most dangerous jobs, others were very successful. Romani familial and clan networks helped facilitate business across international boundaries, and in Germany’s Central and Southeastern European economic satellites, some Roma grew extremely wealthy as import-export merchants. Others, such as the Hungarian Kalderash, known for their coppersmithing skills, became greatly prized in high-value manufacturing.

By the beginning of the 1920s, the future for the Roma looked positive. While Roma still experienced discrimination everywhere, the cosmopolitan capitalism of Germany and the revolutionary pluralism of the Ottoman Empire both encouraged tolerance. While the Congo flu hurt the Roma in Europe, with some politicians blaming “Gypsy wanderers” for the spread of the disease, the Roma continued to integrate into German society. In the Ottoman Empire, Roma communities remained mostly isolated in rural areas, with Romani “kings” holding a tight grip on political power. However, the slow but steady spread of Islam among the settlers began to influence their values, particularly with the arrival of Mohammed Nuri, a Syrian Rom merchant and Belloist preacher, in Turnovo in 1922…

In Germany, Roma generally lived in close proximity to each other as well as other peoples. Some Roma inevitably came into contact with Indian migrants, where the similarities between languages from the northeast of India and the Romani tongue were too many to ignore. Investigated more closely in 1908 by linguist and anthropologist Dr. Pavel Reguly, the theory that the Roma were a lost Indic people soon overwhelmed other theories to become the primary narrative of Romani origins. Cultural and economic ties emerged between Roma and Indian communities, and intellectuals began efforts to codify the fragmented Romani language, Romanes, often using Hindustani loan words for the many gaps. As time went on, some Roma, educated and settled but longing for a homeland of their own, turned their eyes to India…”


***

eVZqkkf.jpg

The bell rang, and Yanko Varga looked up from his papers. Running a gambling racket before the war in Bratislava had taught him how to run the books on a business, and selling horses, usually “lost” from some gentleman’s ranch, had taught him how to hustle. It served him well, even here in the Bombay sun. The war in Europe had thrown a rifle in his hands and sent him off to fight the Germans. He had gotten wounded and sent home. After the war, without jobs and with yet another war on, Yanko had wandered up to Germany. He had Kalderash cousins working at the shipyards in Kiel who got him a job at an ammunition plant. There, he had worked with an Indian, a soldier who had married a German girl and settled down after the war. He had gotten involved in the union movement and learned Hindustani, not so hard for a Romanes-speaker. When he suddenly needed to get out of town in a hurry, India seemed like a good destination: hot, exotic, and most importantly far from the reach of the German police. One thing led to another, and now…

The customer was a tall man, clearly a Sikh from his turban. He didn’t look like most Sikhs though; he was half-kaffir if Yanko had ever seen one. His clothes looked dusty and wrinkled from travel. Bending over, he inspected the assortment of wares and baubles laid out in the front of the store.

Sidi, how can I help you? Anything you are looking for in particular?”

The Sikh looked up and shook his head slightly, then looked back down. Yanko reached out with some of his flashier ornaments. “A bracelet for your wife? How about a ring? I have anything you’d want here, from all corners of the world.”

Without looking up, the Sikh answered. “No wife.”

Yanko smiled even wider. “Ahh, all on your own! Sidi, I can introduce you to the most beautiful women. Very welcoming too.” He winked at the Sikh, for good measure.

The man straightened stiffened slightly, as though insulted. Curtly, he said, “I think I’ve seen all there is to see here. Good day.” Before Yanko could even respond, the Sikh turned sharply and walked from the shop.

“Good day, sidi,” said Yanko. Cursing under his breath, he shook his head. In the old days, he wouldn’t have been sloppy enough to let a customer get away like that. The war had done something to him, especially the second time around. Getting wounded in the trenches had been one thing, but the Indian war was an entirely different animal. The villages destroyed, people starved, gas and mass graves; from what he’d heard, it was a whole lot like what the Roma faced after Hungary fell apart.

He turned back to his papers just as the bell rang again. He looked up, and a huge grin came to his face.

“Slobo! Pa gesi bre!” He hadn’t seen his war buddy since Diwali. The Serbian Rom was a tall, thin, dark-skinned man. The war had left many scars, most notably a missing eye.

Slobodan frowned –his usual expression- and answered in Romanes. “All is good. How are you brother?” he said, sitting down on the customer’s bench. Yanko poured two cups of the sugary tea he always had ready for the customers and, handing one to Slobodan, sat down beside him.

“Fine! Just lost a customer, I’m getting too old for this. I should find myself a nice girl and settle down. But, such is life. I’m getting bored, Slobo. Restless.”

“I know that feeling.” Slobodan said, sipping his tea. His face brightened all of a sudden. “Have you heard about the Congress?”

“You know I don’t follow politics, Slobo. But sure, what happened? Another scandal?”

“No, not the Indian Congress. The Romani National Congress”

Yanko piqued his ears. “Roma?”

“Some veterans from the war are bringing us together. I heard some of them speak after a Dal rally. They want to liberate the Roma like the Indians and the Malê liberated themselves. It’s not just Indians; there are Germans and Ottomans and others there too. They’re having a meeting in an hour or so. Will you come with me?”

Yanko sipped his tea and looked around. His old leg wound ached, and he would have to close the store early. Still…

“Why not?”

Slobodan grinned, a rare sight. “Perfect! Ajde Yanko! Let’s get something to eat first though. On me.”

Yanko smiled back. “On you? Never thought I’d see the day.”
 
Well, I'll be. The butterflies really have created something, haven't they?
Will this movement resemble Zionism OTL? It's good to hear that the Roma are doing well, even if they had a rough war.
 
Fine pair of guest updates, Sulemain and azander12.

It seems like the Rom, or at least the emigrant ones, are making an earlier shift from a nomadic to a sedentary lifestyle, and are finding modern versions of their traditional occupations. That will help their social position a great deal. Their reputation as criminals will still follow them, though, and it will be hard to shake, especially since some members of any community actually are criminals. They'll probably face social discrimination for a generation or even two, which might be part of the reason their new middle class is thinking in terms of a transnational congress.

I assume Mohammed Nuri is a Dom, and that his contact with the Roma immigrants in the Ottoman Empire is part of an overall growing connection between Balkan and Middle Eastern "gypsy" populations? In any event, his take on Belloism ought to be interesting. In some ways, Belloist ideas of community fit well with the Roma tribal and clan structure, but in other ways they don't - some of the things that a Belloist community is supposed to do for its members and for its neighbors are at odds with Roma social separatism.

And is Yanko's customer someone we know? If so, that would probably put the Congress' inaugural meeting in late 1922 or very early 1923.

The Ottoman-Persian-Egyptian-Acehnese update is ready, but I'll hold onto it until tomorrow afternoon to give more time to respond to the guest updates.
 
Well, I'll be. The butterflies really have created something, haven't they?
Will this movement resemble Zionism OTL? It's good to hear that the Roma are doing well, even if they had a rough war.

I see it as such. Romani nationalists would most likely want to return to Northeastern India, although the idea of carving a state off of India seems... unlikely. More plausible is a Romanestan created somewhere in Eastern Europe, or a new autonomous district in India. Most likely though, with post-Westphalianism on the rise, is a transnational Romani government that embraces Roma mobility and negotiates divisions of sovereignty with national governments. On the other hand, a more mobilized and accepted Roma community might not find the need for a nation-state or separate government at all.

Fine pair of guest updates, Sulemain and azander12.

It seems like the Rom, or at least the emigrant ones, are making an earlier shift from a nomadic to a sedentary lifestyle, and are finding modern versions of their traditional occupations. That will help their social position a great deal. Their reputation as criminals will still follow them, though, and it will be hard to shake, especially since some members of any community actually are criminals. They'll probably face social discrimination for a generation or even two, which might be part of the reason their new middle class is thinking in terms of a transnational congress.

I assume Mohammed Nuri is a Dom, and that his contact with the Roma immigrants in the Ottoman Empire is part of an overall growing connection between Balkan and Middle Eastern "gypsy" populations? In any event, his take on Belloism ought to be interesting. In some ways, Belloist ideas of community fit well with the Roma tribal and clan structure, but in other ways they don't - some of the things that a Belloist community is supposed to do for its members and for its neighbors are at odds with Roma social separatism.

And is Yanko's customer someone we know? If so, that would probably put the Congress' inaugural meeting in late 1922 or very early 1923.

The Ottoman-Persian-Egyptian-Acehnese update is ready, but I'll hold onto it until tomorrow afternoon to give more time to respond to the guest updates.

Exactly. Things won't be great for the Roma, but as industrial workers in a cosmopolitan, democratic Germany they'll do much better than OTL's segregation and poverty. The Roma's customs of social isolation will probably relax to a certain extent in Germany, although the Roma of the Ottoman Empire and especially East Transylvania will be pretty "traditional."

Mohammed Nuri is a Dom, and the best way I can describe him is an "adventurer." Imagine 1 part Paulo Abacar and 2 parts Flashman.

Yes, Yanko's customer is someone we know; I couldn't resist :p
 
Last edited:
Really interesting and original update, azander. I like the idea of Roma Zionism. Indianism? Depending on how skilled they are, they might be more welcome or less welcome in India if the region they settle in is more or less developed than the migrants. I guess it also depends on how accepting each group is of the other. Would social isolationism be stripped for those who "return" to India, I wonder?
 
Top