Malê Rising

Sulemain

Banned
How the hell did I miss that? :eek:

Same here! OMG, that's awesome.

Of course, in OTL he had rather nasty eugenics beliefs, which I hope have been butterflied.

A Dominion of Ulster in retrospect might end up being some kind of Protestant Theodemocratic S***hole.
 
Now the Coaster's custom's union looks really fascinating, and I wonder, if it happens, what it will look like; and will Canada get in on it with their connections through the descendents of the Black Loyalist communities in Nova Scotia?

And will the Malê retain a separate ethnic identity in the future?

The Liberia-Sierra Leone customs union is just the beginning of the links that the hardcore Afro-Atlanticists want to build, although it's an open question how far they'll get. Canada will certainly be involved - we've already seen Halifax playing host to refugees from Jamaica and Sierra Leone, and those connections won't go away.

The Malê will retain their identity, although it will change over time as it already has done - at this point the term "Malê" includes not only the descendants of Afro-Brazilian slaves but all those who have come under their cultural influence, and that influence hasn't finished spreading.

Though a Republican Britain is seldom explored, IMHO, the empire would rally better around a figurehead monarch rather than a president. I've heard such things echoed in OTL. The House of Lords looks even more interesting; but how does this compare to OTL, a bit hazy on the details of that House?

Plenty of people in the dominions, especially but not only the Little Englanders, have a sentimental connection to the royal family that they wouldn't have to a president they had no hand in electing. At this point in TTL, with Britain looking for every unifying factor it can muster, many of its citizens saw the monarchy as a lifeline.

The House of Lords' powers are roughly equivalent to what they had under the Parliament Act 1911, although in OTL, there were of course no efforts to make it into an imperial house.

Ireland seems like a good compromise for now, and looks like it's avoided OTL's Troubles. That little quip at the end about the opposing factions of Ulster being neighbors down under sounds like it's going to work out in the end for at least some folks getting past their differences, at least that's what I'm hoping.

So Northern Ireland by different means. Interesting.

Glad to see Northern Ireland ended well-ish.

On another note, glad to see the Northern Ireland question settled in a more moderate way, though the term "moderate" might not be the correct term for the events there.

I'd also question whether "moderate" is the correct term. It all ended reasonably well, but only after several rounds of Troubles that were worse than anything in OTL, and the final settlement essentially ratified much of the ethnic cleansing of the Imperial period. As mentioned, there are a lot of people unhappy with the deal, although few have the fortitude and resources to keep fighting on their own.

The Catholics and Protestants mentioned as ending up good neighbors are the ones who took up land grants in Australasia and eventually decided that there was nothing to fight about over there. Those still in Ireland might also come around, but they'll take somewhat longer. Memories tend to be long there.

A Dominion of Ulster in retrospect might end up being some kind of Protestant Theodemocratic S***hole.

It might well, at least for a while. The large support for the Imperials there is one reason why the final deal made Ulster into a dominion rather than part of the UK - the British government just didn't want to deal with its politics any more.

Of course, Ireland might not be that much better. They've both got some issues to work through, although staying in the empire for the time being could end up being a moderating factor.

One tiny nitpick regarding the very fascinating Britain update: Looking on maps showing the Irish counties, the Dominion of Ulster would only cover 4 (Londonderry, Antrim, Armagh and Down) instead of 5 counties. Unless of course Belfast is the implied fifth county as a county borough (which it historically was together with Derry and some other non-Northern Irish cities).

Monaghan is the fifth county. The secession during the Imperial period involved all nine Ulster counties, and the Protestants did a better job of ethnic cleansing in Monaghan than in Tyrone or Fermanagh, so Ireland wasn't able to get it back at the negotiating table.

A Jamaican adventure...I'm hoping this doesn't resemble a certain adventure in OTL's Iraq. Just saying.

I wonder what the Caribbean Adventure could entail? The RN has naval superiority, the Afro-Jamaicans would be on side... I'm missing something, aren't I?

I'm guessing that with London and the Dominions being busy cleaning up Northern Ireland, the Jamaican planter class have turned the island into a Natal-lite state or at least created from of heavy-discriminatory governance there.

Oh, Jamaica won't be the hard part, although the planter class has indeed consolidated its power. It will be more a political problem than a military one. The adventure will be somewhere else, but it won't resemble Iraq - think 1982, but a lot farther north.

Also alt-H.G. Wells as Socialist PM... Sweet! Let's see how he handles the troublesome situation on Jamaica.

How the hell did I miss that? :eek:

Same here! OMG, that's awesome.

Of course, in OTL he had rather nasty eugenics beliefs, which I hope have been butterflied.

Both his parents were born before the POD - he was the youngest child - and their marriage wasn't a particularly unusual one. This Wells is an ATL-brother, of course, and his personality and views are somewhat different, but he's still a socialist and a man of letters. Unfortunately Verne and Tolstoy are no longer around to have tea.

Eugenics are starting to go out of fashion in the post-Imperial era, although Wells does have some views that are atavistic by modern standards (as indeed Verne did).

No War of the Worlds, more's the pity - or maybe he'll write something which has that title but which is a completely different book.

Anyway, I know I said Latin America and the Caribbean would be next, but then I realized that this was necessary to set the stage, and it didn't really fit with the rest of that update. It will now proceed, and among other things, it will reveal what Britain gets up to (or is dragged into) in the Caribbean.
 
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Interesting on Ulster - how does Monaghan end up in the North TTL when it's in the Republic OTL?

And I see that TTL's Parliament Act is now in place as well, somewhat later than OTL. Will OTL's subsequent reduction from three sessions to two follow in due course?
 
...It will be more a political problem than a military one. The adventure will be somewhere else, but it won't resemble Iraq - think 1982, but a lot farther north....

The last clause alone implies someone outside the British system decides the time is ripe, either because Britain looks weak or because of purely domestic considerations, to seize a long-standing claim of British territory.

I thought it might be a crisis between the Central American federation and the Miskito Coast, but both it and Belize seem to have "vanished softly and silently away" on the latest map we have that includes the Americas. The next suspect, now that the British have long ago sold the Bahamas to the USA, would be in the Lesser Antilles--Trinidad & Tobago, being claim-jumped by Venezuela. Or Guyana being grabbed--by whom though?

But saying the problem is more political than military suggests something very different from the OTL Falklands crisis you clearly allude to--no one resident there wanted the Argentines to take over, whereas a political crisis suggests some sentiment within the disputed territories for leaving the Empire and joining up with an American nation instead. I thought the situation in T & T was better in hand than that, even in the middle of the Imperialist years, and don't know of any historic claims Colombia or Venezuela might be asserting--which just means I don't know of course!

Jamaica would be the obvious candidate if you hadn't just ruled it out.:p But as a secessionist republic, not as a movement keen to flock to another banner--Santo Domingo is right there to the north, but I don't see the Jamaicans as wanting to federate with either Haiti or the Dominican Republic. (Though at least in this timeline, it is not unthinkable they'd consider it!:))

So I can't really guess where your alt-Falklands would be, or how it would be more political than military a problem.

Maybe the opposite of a British territory being grabbed by some local power--perhaps a formerly British territory that has a large disgruntled segment of the populace who dislike how things are working out for them in say, the Central American federation--perhaps I was right to think of Belize or the Miskito region after all? They want back into the Empire?

It would be really awkward if this disgruntled group of long-ago-conceded former subjects were in fact the Bahamans, and the American tinpot dictatorship they want out of is none other than the good old USA!:p

Which would make much more sense OTL than ITTL, where a territory inhabited mainly by dark-skinned African descendants has Carolina to go to bat for them politically.

And I hope the Central American situation is better by and large than a secessionist Belize or Miskito Coast would imply, though last time we looked El Salvador at least had a repressive right-wing government, and one with a poor relationship with the Catholic Church to boot! I hope that's the worst extreme in CA.
 
The last clause alone implies someone outside the British system decides the time is ripe, either because Britain looks weak or because of purely domestic considerations, to seize a long-standing claim of British territory.

I thought it might be a crisis between the Central American federation and the Miskito Coast, but both it and Belize seem to have "vanished softly and silently away" on the latest map we have that includes the Americas. The next suspect, now that the British have long ago sold the Bahamas to the USA, would be in the Lesser Antilles--Trinidad & Tobago, being claim-jumped by Venezuela. Or Guyana being grabbed--by whom though?

Venezuela. Both ITTL and IOTL they have a long-standing, bitterly argued for claim over Guayana Essequiba that is, the vast majority of present-day Guyana's territory. The origin of the dispute is pre-POD, and I seem to remember that it emerged as a minor issue in the Great War ITTL.
I can totally see the area turning unstable again with the current Venezuelan govt., which IIRC is quite big on nationalist lunacy.

EDIT: I see Belize on the map. Guatemala and Hoduras are likely to have a claim onto it as per OTL. Historically, Mexico did as well over part of it, but with Chan Santa Cruz alive and kicking around right there, things might get complicated. It can be a spot where stuff happens too.
 
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Venezuela. Both ITTL and IOTL they have a long-standing, bitterly argued for claim over Guayana Essequiba that is, the vast majority of present-day Guyana's territory. The origin of the dispute is pre-POD, and I seem to remember that it emerged as a minor issue in the Great War ITTL.
I can totally see the area turning unstable again with the current Venezuelan govt., which IIRC is quite big on nationalist lunacy.

Seems possible--see Jonathan's first reply here. Perhaps the current Venezuelan leadership considers the Imperial/Socialist transition to be a sign of things falling apart irrevocably. (Didn't they go to all the trouble of establishing a separate air force, too?)
 
Venezuela. Both ITTL and IOTL they have a long-standing, bitterly argued for claim over Guayana Essequiba that is, the vast majority of present-day Guyana's territory. The origin of the dispute is pre-POD, and I seem to remember that it emerged as a minor issue in the Great War ITTL.
I can totally see the area turning unstable again with the current Venezuelan govt., which IIRC is quite big on nationalist lunacy.

I'm about 95% certain that this is going to be the source of the conflict. The Venezuela Crisis of 1895 only temporarily resolved matters. I mean, it's still a talking point in Venezuela today, as Chavez ordered all maps to label Guayana Essequiba as "Zone to be reclaimed" after taking power. There isn't even a temporary solution to the problem here, so throw in a quasi-fascist, ultra militaristic dictator who sounds surprisingly similar to Chavez (How much did you base Blanco off of him anyways? They sound remarkably similar minus, of course, the socialist rhetoric) and boom, you have yourself the perfect recipe for a diplomatic shitshow.

What's interesting is how the US will respond. I don't believe you've covered the 1920 elections yet, but whoever's in power is going to be in one hell of a bind, deciding weather to incite the Monroe Doctrine (as Cleveland did), and if they do to what extent, or leaving the situation alone, which I would imagine would piss off the war hawks. Either way, I doubt that talks are going to be as smooth and cordial between the two as they were IOTL.
 
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Guestpost: La 'Regeneración Nacional' y el advenimiento de la República

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Urquijo, J. A. (1986). Joaquín Milans del Bosch. Surgical militarism. Barcelona: Editorial Planeta.

The Government for National Regeneration was, as its name clearly indicates, the twisted version of the Spanish movement for ‘approaching Europe’ in the eyes of the military. The new military government undertook to revitalize Spain: to make it virile and dynamic once again, to restore her past glories as an empire and to put away the constant menace from below and abroad. In the best silvelista tradition, these simple-minded officers [1], pretended to undertake a revolution from above, to prevent it from below. In this, they would get no help: The monarch who appointed them would soon distrust their lack of reliance on him; the military would soon resent their favouritism towards the africanistas, the land-owning élites would resent them and the industrial plutocracy would not forget their conciliatory measures towards the more moderate trade unions. And of course, the defeat in the Rif lost them any respect among the military rank-and-file and among even their most ferment admirers, including the powerful media empire of the ABC newspaper.

The new government, although exclusively military-based at first would also be formed technical civilian ministers later, to run the more technical ministries such as Finances, Public Works or Labour, while appointing military strongmen remained at the held of the most important ones in their eyes –War, Navy, Gobernación -, who would dealt swiftly and brutally with the numerous ‘social ills’, caused by the degeneration and abandonment of the traditional Spanish values due to the ‘outdated 19th century liberalism’. The new government would soon indefinitely postpone the Cortes’ sessions and restricted constitutional rights. While, this had been done in the past by constitutional governments, it had never been done so to such extent.

In its illiberal world view, the government disliked the national parliament as a rhetorical parliament for charlatans, but appreciated the ‘true’ organic democracy of the municipalities and provinces –as well as Cuba and Puerto Rico’s-. However, the situation and the authoritarian character of the new government prevented their ideals from being put in practice. Although the Royal Decree of the 18th September provided for the direct election of mayors and civil governors, it would however postpone those elections until ‘such time as the national emergency is resolved’.

During the seven years it lasted, the most daunting problems for Spain were caused by the Rif: the loss of international prestige for its inability to deal with a rebellion of uncivilized Moors and infinitely worse when they actually lost it and the growth of industrial problems.

The socio-economic troubles –at least in the urban centres- came from the realization of the revolution of increasing expectations: The enormous profits and growth of the War had made Spain take an enormous leap forward in terms of industrial and social development. By 1920, about half of all Spaniards lived in the cities of above ten thousand people and Madrid and Barcelona were reaching a million inhabitants. And yet, after the war, costs went up, benefits down, and employees were fired. In this environment, social pressure from below exploded, literally. In Barcelona, where the libertarian CNT trade union dominated, soon the city was in a revolutionary state. And from the Ciutat Condal, it spread to the countryside, where the rabassaires started to attack the large land-owners’ properties. The government’s response was swift and brutal: General Martínez Anido, minister of Gobernación imposed the state of war on the city and thousand were detained, shot by the troops maintaining order or by their allies in the free syndicates, or worse, left to die of starvation in Montjuïc. This brutality encouraged terrorism but ended the shootings for a time.

Madrid and Bilbao, remained, at least until 1920, relatively pacific. Here the UGT and the Catholic trade unions dominated. And indeed, because of this, they were allowed to operate, provided they did not engage in overtly political activities.

The war in the Rif, on the other hand was a complete and unmitigated disaster, especially considering that the government had been government, at least officially, to deal with it. It took away their prestige and the possibilities for any future coup.

In 1913, just as in any time since Charles III, the Spanish military remained poorly funded, and yet it took about a third of the State’s budget, at least before the end of the Rif War. This military [2] that believed it to be the true interpreter of the national interests of the Patria was bloated, with wretched salaries in an Army where there was an officer for every three soldiers and that, in virtue of its neutrality, had not updated its armament or tactics to the new era of warfare. The soldiers, conscripts almost universally, were drawn from a lottery system in which the sons of the upper and middle classes would pay their way out, created a mass of immitigably demoralized and incompetent soldiers. Even worse, many of these soldiers, by the time of their return home had come into contact with the liberalism or socialism of African precedence that, through the penuries experienced and the brutality of the Rif tribes, radicalised them intensely.

…One interesting result of the dictatorship was the promotion of the connection between Spain and the ex-colonies in the hispanismo [3], which would grow quickly in real support both in Spain and across Latin America and would not be forgotten nor forsaken by posterior governments, at least in Spain.

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Carcajo, S. (2000). 1917-1921: Republicanismo, catolicismo social y democracia. Madrid: Círculo de Lectores.

The defeat of 1917 and the social troubles throughout the country set a paved the way to the downfall of the National Government and that of the liberal monarchy of 1866 that had turned, in its desperation, to the most illiberal regime to rule over Spain since Fernando VII.

The retreat to Ceuta and Melilla as the last strongholds in northern Africa, the increasing calls for political liberalization from the dynastic parties’ members, both from the overseas Spain [4] as well as the Peninsula and the mobilization of the radicalised working class, the tiredness of the middle classes for paying taxes and suffering an inflation that fell especially hard on them.

…The presence of the Pope in Spain during the War and the election of the first non-Italian Pope in centuries brought important changes to Spain’s political scene. For the first time ever, the Spanish Catholics mobilized beyond the social sphere. The conservatives of the Constitutional Party had always been clerical, but made a focus on it, as they remained a party of the right-wing élites, more interested in protectionism than in actually expanding the Church’s scope in the liberal state of 1866. And even worse (for Catholics), after having to deal with a meddling Pope, many of them had become to share the same attitudes of the Radicales with regards to a separation of state and church: Both worked better independently, co-existing and acknowledging each other but without interfering in each other’s issues, basically “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's”.

The reaction was the rise of the People’s Social Party (PSP). The party defended the interests of Catholics through the defence of a state wholly corporative (like Belgium or neighbouring Portugal) or democratic with organic elements (as defended by the party’s leadership). It was a mass party; relying and supported by the vast array of Catholic trade unions, newspapers, associations, organizations, charities for its membership, as well as the indispensable support from the lower clergy. It was much more than a class party and rejected the traditional politics of the oligarchic liberalism of 1866.

The party defended the implementation of vast social reforms –something in which they agreed with the Socialists – and came to be seen as “white” or “black” [5] version of the Red menace. However, the PSP still rejected societal reforms, to the extent that they rejected the concept of class war. Instead, they defended the role of the State as an impartial arbiter in the relationship between employers and employees as well as its mission to guide the economy of the Nation…

…Their main base of support came from the countryside and provincial capitals of northern Castille and the Levant [6] as well as the non-Carlist portions of the Basque Country and Navarra. They all had in common their status as small to medium landowners, perhaps not rich enough to be considered middle class, but certainly proud of their status as land owners. This class, organized through the powerful CONCA (Confederación Nacional Católico-Agraria) was seen as the spiritual backbone of the true Spain by right-wing intellectuals…

… The presence of the Legion ex-combatants provided the Catholics with much needed military experience that would be needed in the tumultuous times ahead to defend their interests and belief in how Spain should be…

… The brutality of the National Government in crushing Barcelona’s uprising would not be easily forgotten. The working classes would not forget how their libertarian revolution was stolen from them, another case of revolution manquée to add to their already long book and so, Tolstoi’s Russian would remain alone. The upper classes could not forget the ineptitude of the government in dealing with the troublemakers, in their opinion, the city should have been kept at a much tighter leash and no concessions should have been made, for they made the workers hopeful about revolutionary outcomes. They never recovered their trust in a Madrid, which they had seen for the last decades as parasitical, but at least strong, but now? Not only this; but these provocateurs, these libertarians, were mostly Andalucian, not Catalan, and they feared the complete takeover of this ‘foreign’ element over their “country”.

Instead, they turned to Catalanism, that would allow them to promote better their protectionist, conservative ideals better than the declassé dynastic parties. The rest of the Catalan society, however, with the exception of the conservative rural middle class, would look somewhere else for political aspirations. The Barcelonese working class would continue to be divided into the unitarian republicans, the libertarians and the free syndicalism [7], while the middle class definitely turned towards republicanism, either federal or unitary…

… Socialism went through a golden age during the Great War: Economic booms produce considerable growth in trade union activism, and the Socialists, considered to be the better of the left-wing trade unions was allowed to operate, in the urban areas, and to a lesser degree in the countryside through the FNTT (Federación Nacional de Trabajadores de la Tierra); while their main libertarian opponents, the CNT suffered considerable repression, both before and after the instalment of the National Government of General Milans del Bosch.

The socialists’ political branch gained strength and was considered moderate, despite their Marxist rhetoric. Thanks to the growth of trade union membership, especially in Madrid and Bilbao, where they were strongest; the Socialists became a valid representative of the working class in the eyes of the National Government, which saw trade unions as another important part of their illiberal, ‘organic’ view of Spain…

However, by 1917, the increasingly repression of the government and the increasing number of levies called to fight a losing war tipped the Socialists into the rebellion camp. Slowly, they started to retreat from their policy of tolerance of the regime and approached the main opposition forces: dynastic radicals and democrats, unitary and federal republicans, catalanists and sociocatólicos.

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[1] Military education for officers in Spain was usually much more about learning how Leonidas died bravely in Thermopylae and imitating that conduct than knowing how to actually fight a war or even use a knife in the battlefield. Besides the castizo-style idyllic view of Spain.

[2] More like the Army. The Navy was largely conservative but had no tradition of meddling in politics, except in 1868. The Air Forces, on the other hand, were the refuge of many liberal and republicans, even some anarchists, like Ramón Franco Bahadamonte OTL (yes, that Franco Bahadomente).

[3] Termed used to refer to the connection between the people of the ‘Hispanic Race’ on the basis of common language, culture, religion and history. At first it carried anti-liberal and anti-modernity tones, as well as anti-Anglo-Saxon references. However, with time and the liberalization of Spain and Latin America, it would become less ideological and more economically and culturally-oriented, more celebratory and less of a shield against the spread of the American ‘social illnesses’ of consumerism and other. The Anglo-Saxon dislike, however, is still a thing.

[4] Termed used to refer, indistinctly, to Cuba and Puerto Rico, sometimes, also the Canary Islands, because of their distance to the peninsula and common cultural heritage and even very similar accents.

[5] In reference to the Jesuit dominance of their main newspaper, El Debate and the ACNP (Asociación Nacional Católica de Propagandistas).

[6] In a Spanish context, the Levant refers to the Mediterranean coast of Spain, with the exception, at least in societal definitions, of Catalonia.

[7] Right-wing, “apolitical” syndicalism. The CNT and them loved to kill each other to see who could do more to be put in a book on how not to do deal with class and socioeconomic problems.
 
Awesome update, Nanwe. Seems like Spain's problems aren't over yet.

How developed is Basque nationalism at this point? They seem to have been quiet so far, despite the events in the rest of the country.
 
Dunno much about Spain, but nice guest update! Reading through it, I keep thinking just how on earth would this military government even begin to "bring back Spain to greatness", though it did make me imagine just what would happen if Spain continued being a Great Power in the colonial age...
 
Awesome update, Nanwe. Seems like Spain's problems aren't over yet.

How developed is Basque nationalism at this point? They seem to have been quiet so far, despite the events in the rest of the country.

Not much. Without the cataclysm of 1898, it will be difficult for such a racialist movement as OTL's PNV to get a hold of the Basque bourgeoisie. One of the most important things to remember about the Basque country is that its upper middle and upper classes were always very conservative and religious (in fact, even today a 'pure' Basques are statistically more likely to go to church than a son of second or even third generation immigrants even if of similar social class and economic resources). But without the disenchantment, the Bilbao and San Sebatián's powerful will remain staunchly Spanish, somewhere in between Carlism and favourable to TTL's National Government. On the other hand, the urban proletariat is mostly born outside of the Basque Country plus left-wing, so don't expect much from them. They aren't (like OTL mostly) going to support a movement both conservative and so opposed to their own identity.

So basically, if Basque nationalism takes hold (and it's doubtful), it will only expand across the rural world, and Basque will remain a rural language without any prestige in the cities. Its future is not bright. Especially is Carlism goes through a revival phase.
 
Interesting on Ulster - how does Monaghan end up in the North TTL when it's in the Republic OTL?

And I see that TTL's Parliament Act is now in place as well, somewhat later than OTL. Will OTL's subsequent reduction from three sessions to two follow in due course?

The two-session rule may follow, but the fact that the 1920s reforms have been made part of a written constitution will ironically make further reforms harder. The British constitutional structure can't be changed with a simple parliamentary vote anymore: that will require supermajorities and possibly a referendum. So the British political system in 2014 TTL might look a lot more like the 1920s than it does in OTL.

And Monaghan was the result of all nine Ulster counties seceding during the Imperial period, and the ethnic cleansing there being more successful than in some of the other counties. The Northern Ireland troubles in TTL ranged over a wider territory than OTL, and they got pretty vicious between the Great War and the end of the Imperial period.

I'll hold my peace for now about British involvement in the Caribbean, because all will be revealed in a few days. What I'll say is that the Venezuelan strongman is partly modeled on Chavez, but also on Mussolini and several contemporary Latin American caudillos, and he's an old-school nationalist who sees no need for socialist or Bolivarian rhetoric. And in terms of possible American involvement, the important election will be the 1924 one.
 

Sulemain

Banned
I suspect the new post-India RN that I examined in my post will utterly crush the Venezuelans. Not to mention the "New Model" Army and the Royal Flying Host, of course.]

Excellent Spain update, btw. I once read a book that mentioned one of the causes behind the OTL SCW was the Spanish Officer Corp being a bunch of arrogant douches who thought they were the ones to run the country.
 
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Not much. Without the cataclysm of 1898, it will be difficult for such a racialist movement as OTL's PNV to get a hold of the Basque bourgeoisie. One of the most important things to remember about the Basque country is that its upper middle and upper classes were always very conservative and religious (in fact, even today a 'pure' Basques are statistically more likely to go to church than a son of second or even third generation immigrants even if of similar social class and economic resources). But without the disenchantment, the Bilbao and San Sebatián's powerful will remain staunchly Spanish, somewhere in between Carlism and favourable to TTL's National Government. On the other hand, the urban proletariat is mostly born outside of the Basque Country plus left-wing, so don't expect much from them. They aren't (like OTL mostly) going to support a movement both conservative and so opposed to their own identity.

So basically, if Basque nationalism takes hold (and it's doubtful), it will only expand across the rural world, and Basque will remain a rural language without any prestige in the cities. Its future is not bright. Especially is Carlism goes through a revival phase.

Interesting. The way you put it, the social base of the left-wing Basque nationalism IOTL (such as what used to be Batasuna) is essentially made of people who have little direct ancestry in the Basque Country? This would be fascinating.*

* I personally know people in a similar situation in Catalonia, so I would not be surprised. Of course, I understand that Basque and Catalonian nationalisms are very different beasts.
 
Nanwe, the situation in Spain sounds very interesting. I really liked the details you gave us there.

One thing that's caught my attention is the weird relationship they have developed with democracy and representative organizations. On the one hand, they suspend the Cortes, but praise local-level democracy and catholic and socialist labor unions as organic voices of the people. Are these unions in the form of a typical labor union, or does it follow more of the Franquista management-ran "unions"? If the former, the government's ideas are still illiberal, but it doesn't fit into the mold of any OTL Spanish intellectual movements I can think of(well, the eclectic mix vaguely reminds me of Franco's mix of justifications for personal power, but I can't really call Franquismo a real ideology). I'm curious, is it inspired or modeled off of something from OTL or more of a whole-cloth invention for TTL?

It sounds like the military government is on increasingly tenuous footing as well. I wonder how long it can realistically last ITTL Spain.
 
Nanwe, the situation in Spain sounds very interesting. I really liked the details you gave us there.

One thing that's caught my attention is the weird relationship they have developed with democracy and representative organizations. On the one hand, they suspend the Cortes, but praise local-level democracy and catholic and socialist labor unions as organic voices of the people. Are these unions in the form of a typical labor union, or does it follow more of the Franquista management-ran "unions"? If the former, the government's ideas are still illiberal, but it doesn't fit into the mold of any OTL Spanish intellectual movements I can think of(well, the eclectic mix vaguely reminds me of Franco's mix of justifications for personal power, but I can't really call Franquismo a real ideology). I'm curious, is it inspired or modeled off of something from OTL or more of a whole-cloth invention for TTL?

It sounds like the military government is on increasingly tenuous footing as well. I wonder how long it can realistically last ITTL Spain.

Well, it's actually based on the ideas of the OTL Prime de Rivera dictatorship. It not only paid lip service to the concept of organic democracy like the Francoist dictatorship but actually implemented it to some degree, in fact, despite being a Mussolini-admiring, proto-fascist and hyper-protectionist (only behind the USSR in barriers to entry) regime, it made enormous progressive steps forward modernity and actually developed important social reforms like the comités paritarios, tripartite committees where representatives of a trade union (usually the Socialist UGT), the employers and representatives of the State, who usually sided with the workers. This system didn't, however, apply to the countryside. The state also built lots of public housing and ventured into a huge public works system (so huge that by 1930, traffic accidents had increased by 90%, imagine the increase in road usage) that created a huge deficit and credit crisis.

But it's actually not so strange. The integralist movements as well as the other proto-fascist had an idyllic view of the medieval world, and such that included low-level democracy (like burghs back in the days of Alfonso X) and guild-like organizations of economic cooperation. So it fitted nicely, of course, you need to be careful to differentiate between what they aimed to do and how it ended up. As I mentioned while local democracy is nice (first time mayors would be directly elected instead of appointed by Madrid), it is only written in the law, but suspended. At the same time, any notion of a regional (ie. above provincial) cooperation would be seen as an attack on the sanctity of the Nation, and heavily prosecuted.

So, it's not coherent, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. But of course it's difficult to write about a Primo-like regime without someone as charismatic as Primo de Rivera, who as a foreign journalist put it: "[he was] the kind of Spanish aristocrat who goes, with equal conviction, to the brothel Saturday night and to mass Sunday morning with his wife".

Interesting. The way you put it, the social base of the left-wing Basque nationalism IOTL (such as what used to be Batasuna) is essentially made of people who have little direct ancestry in the Basque Country? This would be fascinating.*

* I personally know people in a similar situation in Catalonia, so I would not be surprised. Of course, I understand that Basque and Catalonian nationalisms are very different beasts.

Well, ETA is very linked to the Catholic Church, in fact many of its members back in the bloodiest days of the 70s and 80s were ex-seminarians. Well, the Basque Country's nationalism is not something I know all that well, although the PNV was relatively successful in becoming a mass party in the 20-30s and only under the duress of Francoist repression did the left-wing break off and become radical. But yes, they are two very different beasts, Basque nationalism has always lacked the widespread support its Catalan equivalent, since Catalanism began as a bourgeois movement while the Basque nationalism was more rural. But again, I'd need to read on it to know more.

PS: Perhaps it's better that if you have questions you PM me? This is Jonathan's TL after all.
 
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So, it's not coherent, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. But of course it's difficult to write about a Primo-like regime without someone as charismatic as Primo de Rivera, who as a foreign journalist put it: "[he was] the kind of Spanish aristocrat who goes, with equal conviction, to the brothel Saturday night and to mass Sunday morning with his wife".

Is this really the kind of regime that needs a Primo to carry off, though? These seem like the kind of ideas that a committee of reactionary officers could adopt without a charismatic leader, especially if they're "rescuing the country from chaos" rather than having to persuade a functioning state to adopt their program. As you say, it's a bit muddled, but most of these kinds of ideologies are, and a committee can come up with that sort of mess even better than a single leader.

(And I would have thought that going to church and the brothel with equal conviction was part of the basic job qualifications for an aristocrat, but I digress. :p)
 
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