Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Good morning, from the Southern Antipodes. (i.e. Victoria, Australia.)
I've greatly enjoyed this thread, but my knowledge of the campaign is scant, other than the stories of Australian POW's in Changing, and on the Burma Railway, so have refrained from comment.
I'm sure if we dig a bit we can find plenty of evidence of Telephone Exchange Operators, holding on till the last.
Case in point, at the Adelaide River War Cemetery, in the Northern Territory, in a separate area, are a group of civilian graves. These are the staff, mostly women, of the Darwin Telephone Exchange, who operated through the bombing of Darwin, in 1942, until the building took a direct hit.
The point I'm alluding to is the dedication, and professionalism, of the manual exchange operators, in many places, both in war, and natural disaster.
Teletype literally type out letter by letter ,word by word ,line by line ,whatever is inputted from the other end. You can have real time typing showing up and you have also the punched paper tape that they use for multiple copies of the same message sent on different circuits so you don't have to keep typing it in each time. Basically you can have a single person type up a message, get it approved to send, then put the paper tape on the machine to send at a speed greater than a person can type, over and over again. Same thing with the radio teletype, you type it up, get it approved, put the spool of punch paper tape on the machine press send and wait until they respond back with good copy. One thing is with the land line or the radio version you can hook up a machine like the typex and use the output from it to make the paper tape.
In Malaya you would have environmental problems to deal with ticker tapes. It would be a moist atmosphere from the Monsoons. This would cause the ticker tapes to swell and there would be problems feeding them through the machines. This does sound like much of a problem but it caused problems in Malaya and Vietnam. Vietnam they were reliant on paper cards for computers and they found they didn't work, so they'd have problems in Malaya. Six months of the year they'd be stuffed.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
OK, so firstly I need to apologise, I've been bullshitting when I should have just said I don't know. Clearly my understanding of Teletext and Cipher is almost non existent. So lets try and tidy this up.
Firstly
No I've not been able to fins a photo of a Cheetah on a stand, but it was similar to these.
and
www.electroprops.co.uk
So yes its big and no doubt expensive, but not to the degree you could take from my inference.
And Jlckansas was the perfect gentleman, kindly pointing out some very helpful info to correct me!
and finally I have a lovely old Pathe film on Youtube explaining the Teleprinter.
Now this is 1930, and they have connected a call over the telephone network from London to Glasgow, via operator
Having made the call and connected to the other end, both our office operators switchover the telephone line to the teleprinter, (and its NOT some big and expensive monstrosity as I eluded to!) and press the who are you key, the distant machines confirming who they are. The narrator explains the benefits of 60 word per minute, and the receiving end gets a written copy, no potential misunderstanding there. The only bit I'm a little unsure of is the connection part, for a landline connect, I think it needed a telegraph quality line, and not the normal telephone line network, can anyone clarify that for me please.
The machine the British were using would be a Creed 7, and there are a couple of lovely videos of it here
and
OK, that's a teleprinter on a landline, I need to look at teleprinters via radio links and also the Typex cipher machine, which I'll do in following posts
Firstly
OK the terminals were big and heavy, but only in the following context. Ina previous life, I worked as a telephone engineer, I know, bloody hilarious, considering how little I know! And I well remember, as an apprentice, helping a Telex Engineer install a telex machine upstairs in an office. It was a 'Lightweight' British Telecom Cheetah, and by lightweight, it meant the two of us could carry (just) the thing up them stairs. It left a lasting impression on me, firstly I didn't fancy becoming a Telex engineer, and secondly, if that was lightweight, how heavy was the old version!
No I've not been able to fins a photo of a Cheetah on a stand, but it was similar to these.
Data Dynamics 1970s telex terminal/printer | Electro Props Hire
www.electroprops.co.uk
So yes its big and no doubt expensive, but not to the degree you could take from my inference.
Duckie kindly pointed this out with his 1950-60s mobile unit. (Seriously Duckie, you can't be that old?)
And Jlckansas was the perfect gentleman, kindly pointing out some very helpful info to correct me!
Here are a few photos and listings of equipment:
teleprinter:
Teleprinters - Teletype Model 15, 1940s
Two Teletypes (Model 15) made by the Teletype Corporation in the United States and used in telegraphic communication systems. Input was via a keyboard and output appeared as printed characters on a roll of paper. These machines were brought into use in Australia during World War II. In the days...collections.museumsvictoria.com.au
An article about the signal corps in the CBI showing a setup of teletype.
article from IBM about teleprinters.
Equipment list of Signal Corps to look up individual models.
and finally I have a lovely old Pathe film on Youtube explaining the Teleprinter.
Now this is 1930, and they have connected a call over the telephone network from London to Glasgow, via operator
Thank you Aber, another gentleman!
Having made the call and connected to the other end, both our office operators switchover the telephone line to the teleprinter, (and its NOT some big and expensive monstrosity as I eluded to!) and press the who are you key, the distant machines confirming who they are. The narrator explains the benefits of 60 word per minute, and the receiving end gets a written copy, no potential misunderstanding there. The only bit I'm a little unsure of is the connection part, for a landline connect, I think it needed a telegraph quality line, and not the normal telephone line network, can anyone clarify that for me please.
The machine the British were using would be a Creed 7, and there are a couple of lovely videos of it here
OK, that's a teleprinter on a landline, I need to look at teleprinters via radio links and also the Typex cipher machine, which I'll do in following posts
LOL, I was born in 1961, so you can do the math. And yes that 1950-60 unit was still in use. It was an member of an whole range of vehicles designed to replace the World War 2 equipment. The dutch army had in the cold war a lot of reserve units, all the equipment was stored in MOB complexes and kept ready and up to date for when the cold war turned hot. As the fighting vehicles (tanks / IFV's etc) got replaced, It made a lot of sense to keep the support vehicles the same. The "Parate Troepen" (those on active service), about 64.000 soldiers, would be augmented with about 210.000 reserve troops in case of an war. And a light truck from the 1960's is still just as good as an light truck from the 1980's.
Ps. I was told during my training that my life expectancy as an radio teletyp operator would be about 17 minutes, given an 3 weeks active war.
Mr. Coxy, I know ham radio operators who still use WW 2 and Korean war era radio teletype units for RTTY all the time. They have restored them and there is an active market on them for parts and to use them. Updated units are used also all the time now even having computer programs hooked to radios to do it.
The USN was using teletype machines with radio operators typing input, and output received, being automatically typed out. However all code intercepts, and deciphered messages, went from the Philippines by special air mail, in a special strong box, built into the hulls of the Pan Am Clipper flying boats. via Guam (Station Ship monitored Japanese communications in the mandates) Hawaii, to San Francisco where it initially went by special Registered mail, and later a courier.
Also a correction By 1939 the Code name for Hawaii's station had been changed from Hotel to Hypo.
Also a correction By 1939 the Code name for Hawaii's station had been changed from Hotel to Hypo.
More than merely likely. Iwane Matsui was precisely such an individual.
Examples 1898 Ensign Thomas Hart-1941 Vice Admiral Thomas Hart CIC Asiatic Fleet, 1904 Ensign Isoroku Yamamoto-1941 Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto Commander in Chief Imperial Fleet,
40-50 years is actually pretty standard for militaries of the day to go from cadet to decision maker. Though the late 30’s did see some of this old guard moving into retirement so the average might have been slightly lower by WW2.
Hart was scheduled for retirement in June1942 when his time as CIC Asiatic Fleet expired. because of the war he stayed on until 1944 when appointed to the U.S. Senate.
Yes, but you only get one or two like him in a generation. But the Pom's seemed to have a larger number of them. Perhaps the NorthWest Frontier of the Empire was a good training ground, but that doesn't explain Dowding, Park, or Admirals Cunningham, & Somerville.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The major difference between the British Army and most others, was the fact that British forces served both at home and abroad. A French officer was ether a part of the Metropolitan Army or the Colonial Army. While given the comparatively small size of the American Army, the lack of overseas territories, and the preference for using the USMC, for expeditionary forces in Central and South America, the chance of an officer serving outside America were small. Were as virtually all British officers in the combat arms, infantry, cavalry, artillery and engineers had served at least one if not more deployments overseas. This was also true of the majority of officers in the RN and RAF, British officers were probably the most cosmopolitan in the world during the inter war period. And a majority of them had as a result of post WWI reductions dropped two or more ranks from their WWI hight, ie from Lt Colonel to captain, and thus had had experience of higher command under their belt. A young man who left Sandhurst at 18 in 1914, could have been a Lt Colonel in France 1918, in command of an infantry battalion, artillery regiment. Only to revert to a captain and not find himself a Lt Colonel again until he was in his forties with two or more overseas postings, and time in a staff appointment, plus minor combat duties. His American equivalent might have only served for a few months in France during WWI, then spent the inter war years without seeing anything more than some strike braking duties, up until the entry of America into WWII.
RR.
RR.
It's hard to know everything about the technology of the past. I'm a luddite who doesn't know the technology of today. So, we do the best we can and wing it.OK, so firstly I need to apologise, I've been bullshitting when I should have just said I don't know. Clearly my understanding of Teletext and Cipher is almost non existent. So lets try and tidy this up.
Firstly
OK the terminals were big and heavy, but only in the following context. Ina previous life, I worked as a telephone engineer, I know, bloody hilarious, considering how little I know! And I well remember, as an apprentice, helping a Telex Engineer install a telex machine upstairs in an office. It was a 'Lightweight' British Telecom Cheetah, and by lightweight, it meant the two of us could carry (just) the thing up them stairs. It left a lasting impression on me, firstly I didn't fancy becoming a Telex engineer, and secondly, if that was lightweight, how heavy was the old version!
No I've not been able to fins a photo of a Cheetah on a stand, but it was similar to these.
and
Data Dynamics 1970s telex terminal/printer | Electro Props Hire
So yes its big and no doubt expensive, but not to the degree you could take from my inference.
Duckie kindly pointed this out with his 1950-60s mobile unit. (Seriously Duckie, you can't be that old?)
And Jlckansas was the perfect gentleman, kindly pointing out some very helpful info to correct me!
and finally I have a lovely old Pathe film on Youtube explaining the Teleprinter.
Now this is 1930, and they have connected a call over the telephone network from London to Glasgow, via operator
Thank you Aber, another gentleman!
Having made the call and connected to the other end, both our office operators switchover the telephone line to the teleprinter, (and its NOT some big and expensive monstrosity as I eluded to!) and press the who are you key, the distant machines confirming who they are. The narrator explains the benefits of 60 word per minute, and the receiving end gets a written copy, no potential misunderstanding there. The only bit I'm a little unsure of is the connection part, for a landline connect, I think it needed a telegraph quality line, and not the normal telephone line network, can anyone clarify that for me please.
The machine the British were using would be a Creed 7, and there are a couple of lovely videos of it here
and
OK, that's a teleprinter on a landline, I need to look at teleprinters via radio links and also the Typex cipher machine, which I'll do in following posts
Offen true but, many American soldiers served in the Philippines, Hawaii, Panama, Puerto Rico, China, and even up in Alaska. The same was true of the Navy. "Join the Navy and See the World"
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Sorry but I must disagree with you, of the overseas postings you mentioned only one China wasn’t an American territory, all the others are either an overseas part of America, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and Alaska , or an American territory such as Panama or the Philippines. And the majority of Americans troops in China were Marines, if memory serves me right, the 4th marines, based in Shanghai with a detachment in Peking. Sending an American soldier to the Hawaii or Alaska wasn’t very different to sending him to Texas or California. The equivalent of a British soldier would have been a posting to Canada. Australia or New Zealand, were as India, Palestine, Egypt, Cypress, Hong Kong , and a host of others were very different cultures.
RR.
The distinction is semantic. British soldiers were serving in the British Empire, or Commonwealth. Places like Egypt were British protectorates. Serving in the Philippines, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Panama, or Alaska was very different than serving in Texas, or California. Language, culture, and climate were very different than conditions on the mainland. Duty in the bleak Texas desert in the 1930's was a harsh life compared to duty in DC, or Fort Benning GA. The British just had more territories to police.