Did the torpedo boats of the day not use radio communications while hunting? Or were they worried that any transmission would be detected and spoil the ambush?
 
Did the torpedo boats of the day not use radio communications while hunting? Or were they worried that any transmission would be detected and spoil the ambush?

Late war boats likely all would have had something aboard.

Earlier war boats, especially ones in a lower priority area, probably a lot more hit or miss.

Big thing about torpedo boats also is that you really need to know when and where the enemy is coming from also. They'll need to be careful planning how and when to attack also. As long as the Japanese convoys remain outside territorial waters, and until the Japanese either declare war or shoot first, or at least openly violate Malayan territorial waters, they really can't have the MTBs out waiting.

This is why I see it best if they use subs for recon and to land the first blows, and then have the MTB units come in and try to pick off other targets.
 
Japanese escorts were typically of poor quality. I would expect the British to do well here.
They don't really need to be particularly powerful to do the job. I think your being influenced by the Japanese reputation for inadequate ASW vessels. It's not like they need destroyer escorts, or corvettes that would protect ocean convoys against submarines. I think all the Japanese had for escorts for this convoy were patrol boats, small boats called subchasers, and armed trawlers. Unless their being attacked by destroyers, they should be more than enough for MTB's, though the MTB's may get lucky.

An attack by a British submarine is another matter. Remember to be most effective a sub would have to attack before the landing, and probably have to do it at night on the surface. That's a whole different ball game than an MTB attack.
 
They don't really need to be particularly powerful to do the job. I think your being influenced by the Japanese reputation for inadequate ASW vessels. It's not like they need destroyer escorts, or corvettes that would protect ocean convoys against submarines. I think all the Japanese had for escorts for this convoy were patrol boats, small boats called subchasers, and armed trawlers. Unless their being attacked by destroyers, they should be more than enough for MTB's, though the MTB's may get lucky.

An attack by a British submarine is another matter. Remember to be most effective a sub would have to attack before the landing, and probably have to do it at night on the surface. That's a whole different ball game than an MTB attack.
German escorts of convoys targeted by RN MTB squadrons were only seldom destroyers while the IJN did deploy a lot of its second-rate destroyers as escorts for the invasion fleets.
 
They don't really need to be particularly powerful to do the job. I think your being influenced by the Japanese reputation for inadequate ASW vessels. It's not like they need destroyer escorts, or corvettes that would protect ocean convoys against submarines. I think all the Japanese had for escorts for this convoy were patrol boats, small boats called subchasers, and armed trawlers. Unless their being attacked by destroyers, they should be more than enough for MTB's, though the MTB's may get lucky.

An attack by a British submarine is another matter. Remember to be most effective a sub would have to attack before the landing, and probably have to do it at night on the surface. That's a whole different ball game than an MTB attack.

Which convoy?

The Kota Bharu convoy I mentioned a few weeks ago had several modern destroyers and a light cruiser, all comparable in size and firepower to a number of British and US warships of the time.

An MTB is good for short engagements, but unless they kill their engine and just sit somewhere, they really don't have a lot of time to loiter around waiting, especially several miles out in the open ocean with little or no cover. They're much more useful closer to shore, where depending on if they paint the boats to be low visibility, they can hug the coastline and hide.

A sub, of which this timeline has 4 operating out of Singapore, has much longer legs, much better loiter time, at this point all British subs have some sort of radio aboard to send out a sighting report, and if the boat dives, it can avoid detection better.
 
Last edited:
Which convoy?

The Kota Bharu convoy I mentioned a few weeks ago had several modern destroyers and a light cruiser, all comparable in size and firepower to a number of British and US warships of the time.
They were all 1920's ships so not particularly modern.
 
A destroyer, even an old one, is overkill against MTBs. Remember we're talking 60-foot wooden boats here - a 37mm or equivalent AA gun will rip one up no trouble, and heavier weapons just make it harder to hit. An MTB detected by pretty much any armed ship is in trouble - classic MTB tactics are sneak into range undetected, launch torpedoes and use the speed to get the hell outta Dodge.

Compared to submarines, MTBs are much cheaper, can operate in shallow waters where submarines struggle and have the dash speed to catch moving targets from a much longer distance. The downside is they're pretty much limited to coastal operations at night (an MTB spotted in open waters in daylight is pretty much dead), they carry many fewer torpedoes and they're easier to detect and much easier to kill before they get into effective torpedo range.
 
A destroyer, even an old one, is overkill against MTBs. Remember we're talking 60-foot wooden boats here - a 37mm or equivalent AA gun will rip one up no trouble, and heavier weapons just make it harder to hit. An MTB detected by pretty much any armed ship is in trouble - classic MTB tactics are sneak into range undetected, launch torpedoes and use the speed to get the hell outta Dodge.

Compared to submarines, MTBs are much cheaper, can operate in shallow waters where submarines struggle and have the dash speed to catch moving targets from a much longer distance. The downside is they're pretty much limited to coastal operations at night (an MTB spotted in open waters in daylight is pretty much dead), they carry many fewer torpedoes and they're easier to detect and much easier to kill before they get into effective torpedo range.

Sorry to ask the inevitable question but any idea what the difference in cost was between a U-class coastal submarine and something like a Thornycraft 73' MTB? Considering materials and weight are we talking 6x the price?
 
Just a mea culpa on my own ignorance.....

Thanks to FC for another great chapter in which I learned something new (one of many chapters like that). I never realized that they slowed down, much less had to extend a lattice frame for the torpedoes to them make their way into the water, prior to launch. Having never seen a torpedo boat actually fire its torpedoes I was under the mistaken impression that they spun up the propellers to full speed prior to launch and as the gas accumulated behind the torpedo it would launch forward of the speeding torpedo boat. So again to FC, thank you for the education. Cheers, Matthew. 🍻
 
Just a mea culpa on my own ignorance.....

Thanks to FC for another great chapter in which I learned something new (one of many chapters like that). I never realized that they slowed down, much less had to extend a lattice frame for the torpedoes to them make their way into the water, prior to launch. Having never seen a torpedo boat actually fire its torpedoes I was under the mistaken impression that they spun up the propellers to full speed prior to launch and as the gas accumulated behind the torpedo it would launch forward of the speeding torpedo boat. So again to FC, thank you for the education. Cheers, Matthew. 🍻
It depends how you launch them. Some MTBs had launch tubes and fired them like destroyers did, others used the roll method. U.S. PT boats started off using launch tubes but converted later to rolling them off the deck. The roll method saved a lot of weight, and avoided the flash of the discharge blast that could reveal the location of the firing boat. German S Boats had launch tubes, and I believe these British MTBs did to.
 
It depends how you launch them. Some MTBs had launch tubes and fired them like destroyers did, others used the roll method. U.S. PT boats started off using launch tubes but converted later to rolling them off the deck. The roll method saved a lot of weight, and avoided the flash of the discharge blast that could reveal the location of the firing boat. German S Boats had launch tubes, and I believe these British MTBs did to.

So I'm filing in my head accurately....

S-Boat + Large British MTB
- Used pressurized launch tubes
- Enabled higher speed launches but flash likely to give away position (surprise lost), especially if fighting at night where flash more noticeable

US PT
- Used roll method
- Required boats to slow prior to launch but saved weight and more importantly no flash helped conceal firing position from target

And what FC was describing was first generation British MTB's (model?) without pressurized launch tubes or roll method? So again, lighter installation, and more stealth at point of firing, but arguably more vulnerable as they had to slow dramatically to fire at relatively close range to target?

And just to keep in same post, what did Italian MTB's use?

Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻
 
So I'm filing in my head accurately....

S-Boat + Large British MTB
- Used pressurized launch tubes
- Enabled higher speed launches but flash likely to give away position (surprise lost), especially if fighting at night where flash more noticeable

US PT
- Used roll method
- Required boats to slow prior to launch but saved weight and more importantly no flash helped conceal firing position from target

And what FC was describing was first generation British MTB's (model?) without pressurized launch tubes or roll method? So again, lighter installation, and more stealth at point of firing, but arguably more vulnerable as they had to slow dramatically to fire at relatively close range to target?

And just to keep in same post, what did Italian MTB's use?

Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻
From what I've seen and read the roll method was used on U.S. PT boats starting in 1943. Before for that all MTBs used launch tubes. Here's a video of British MTBs from 1943 using launch tubes. I don't know if RN MTBs started using the roll method later in the war, but they started the war using launch tubes.
 
Did the torpedo boats of the day not use radio communications while hunting? Or were they worried that any transmission would be detected and spoil the ambush?
I would imagine those were issues. TBS Talk Between Ship radio came out in the USN by 1942, and enabled ships to do voice communication within a few miles of each other with little chance of enemy interception. I don't know if MTBs had low power voice radios before that to coordinate hunts with. I know that radios of that type were available at the time and were installed in tanks. Slightly off topic, but American tanks had a major advantage over their German counterparts by having much more powerful FM radios vs. weaker German AM sets.
 
So I'm filing in my head accurately....

S-Boat + Large British MTB
- Used pressurized launch tubes
- Enabled higher speed launches but flash likely to give away position (surprise lost), especially if fighting at night where flash more noticeable

US PT
- Used roll method
- Required boats to slow prior to launch but saved weight and more importantly no flash helped conceal firing position from target

And what FC was describing was first generation British MTB's (model?) without pressurized launch tubes or roll method? So again, lighter installation, and more stealth at point of firing, but arguably more vulnerable as they had to slow dramatically to fire at relatively close range to target?

And just to keep in same post, what did Italian MTB's use?

Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻
IIRC, USN PT's used tube launched torpedoes, until early 1943 when the added weaponry (20 mm, 37mm, 40mm) auto cannon plus more .50cal HMGs made the need for weight reduction necessary. All USN PTs in the Pacific at this time were tube launched torpedoes.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
German escorts of convoys targeted by RN MTB squadrons were only seldom destroyers while the IJN did deploy a lot of its second-rate destroyers as escorts for the invasion fleets.
The battles between British and German coastal forces along the northern France, Belgium, Holland coastline during WW2 was hard fought and bloody.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Just a mea culpa on my own ignorance.....

Thanks to FC for another great chapter in which I learned something new (one of many chapters like that). I never realized that they slowed down, much less had to extend a lattice frame for the torpedoes to them make their way into the water, prior to launch. Having never seen a torpedo boat actually fire its torpedoes I was under the mistaken impression that they spun up the propellers to full speed prior to launch and as the gas accumulated behind the torpedo it would launch forward of the speeding torpedo boat. So again to FC, thank you for the education. Cheers, Matthew. 🍻
and
It depends how you launch them. Some MTBs had launch tubes and fired them like destroyers did, others used the roll method. U.S. PT boats started off using launch tubes but converted later to rolling them off the deck. The roll method saved a lot of weight, and avoided the flash of the discharge blast that could reveal the location of the firing boat. German S Boats had launch tubes, and I believe these British MTBs did to.
The boats of the 2nd MTB Flotilla are very much obsolescent as far as Fast Attack Craft go for this period, the Germans, with their S-Boats, or E-boats as us Brits like to call them, were so much further advanced, bigger ships, with diesel engines, much less likely to catch fire (see also tank warfare of this time), larger guns and very seaworthy. And that's without discussing the launching torpedoes, which as CB13 posted

And what FC was describing was first generation British MTB's (model?) without pressurized launch tubes or roll method? So again, lighter installation, and more stealth at point of firing, but arguably more vulnerable as they had to slow dramatically to fire at relatively close range to target?
Slowing down, and erecting the lattice framework to launch the torpedo will expose the boat to danger, her speed in combat being her only real defence. So they have to effect a surprise attack, otherwise it will get a bit hairy for them. As for guns on the boat, I believe they carried twin Lewis Guns, mounted fore and aft, and may have mounted a fifth machine gun, Lewis or Bren, within the bridge.

There's a nice little video here which gives some idea of their capabilities and frailties.
.
 
The battles between British and German coastal forces along the northern France, Belgium, Holland coastline during WW2 was hard fought and bloody.
The battles off the west coast of Italy are little know today but were tough fights. The Germans were running supply convoys down the coast, and the Allies tried to intercept them. USN PT boats had radar, so they'd help lead RN MTBs & MGBs in night battles. The Germans would escort freighters with S-boats, and what they called Lighters, small coastal ships loaded out with all kinds of guns from 20 & 37mm AA guns, 75 & 88mm flak guns, and up to 105mm howitzers. Some of the PT boats gave up their torpedoes and loaded up with guns up to 75mm. Whatever kind of light artillery they could get ahold of and bolt on the deck of a PT, or MGB to match the firepower of the German Lighters. Many of the coastal freighters drew too little water to be hit with torpedoes, so it became more, and more of a gun fight.
 
Top