Fatboy Coxy
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Hi Cryhavoc101, spot on, thank you! Robert Shaw was such a versatile actor, my three favourite films that he's in are Battle Of Britain, To Russia With Love and Jaws!
Hi Cryhavoc101, spot on, thank you! Robert Shaw was such a versatile actor, my three favourite films that he's in are Battle Of Britain, To Russia With Love and Jaws!
Hi Driftless, Having Park, and all he knows really helps develop this timeline, along with the decision to give them Hurricanes, and will be a major factor in any successful holding of Malaya.. I didn't think AVM Conway Pulford did a bad job historically, despite being so handicapped by equipment and events. Unfortunalty I know so very little of Pulford before he took command of the RAF in the Far East, his roles are less than impressive, and was clearly sent to a backwater, to build a fledgling force, see https://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Pulford.htmAnother lesson-learned from the BoB
Another factor to take into consideration in regards to the ability of the Japanese aircrew to navigate at night, both army and navy. Is their starting point, which will have a major effect on the accuracy of the bombers, and their ability to find Singapore. Setting out from the south of FIC, they have two basic options, fly directly to Malaya then follow the coast until they get to Singapore. Our try flying directly to Singapore with a long overwater leg that has few if any navigation points. While this would be the preferred option, as it is a more direct flight, which decreases the fuel requirement, and increases the bomb load. It requires excellent navigation skills, and get it wrong and you could be heading for the DEI, without ever seeing Singapore. However while the first option is much easier, it has the problem that the British will receive a much longer warning, and thus be far better prepared.^^^ To key off of Ramp-Rats comments: how good was Japanese Army (or Navy) bomber forces at night navigation? As we read here often, even experienced RAF bomber pilots night navigation was pretty terrible in the early days of the war. Singapore itself is a large target bounded by (light reflective) water, so I'd get hitting the city on the macro level should be easy enough. How well would they do at night trying to hit specific targets, such as the dockyards?
How true would it be upcountry to hit even general targets, let alone specific tactical ones?
From limited reading Japanese Navy bombers had trained on dusk torpedo attacks, trying to come in from the dark side with the target silhouetted against the setting sun. They carried out quite a few during the war and they were succesfull until the USN could get it's own night-fighters operational. I've not see the dive or level bombers having any specific night tactics.How well would they do at night trying to hit specific targets, such as the dockyards?
How true would it be upcountry to hit even general targets, let alone specific tactical ones?
Hi Ramp Rat, just between you and me, I have been informed by the Admiralty that following the false alert of the German heavy cruiser, Admiral Scheer breaking out into the North Atlantic on another German raid on our convoys, HMS Prince of Wales is currently conducting exercises out of Scapa Flow, with the intention of deploying to Gibraltar later in the month, for service in Mediterranean waters, but keep it under your hat old chap, careless talk and all that you know!sinking of the POW and Repulse.
RR.
Undoubtedly fighting on home territory does offer a good return of recovering parachuting pilots, however, over virgin jungle their odds must be diminished. I don't have much info on pilots landing in jungle over New Guinea or Burma, and your right, some specialist squads are going to be needed to rescue them, along with sizeable rewards for natives aiding pilots.Here the major British advantage will come into play, in that any British aircrew that are shot down, stand a very good chance of being recovered and returned to service. Where as any Japanese aircrew shot down, unless close to their base, are going to be dead or out of action. A Japanese shot down over the jungle even close to the frontline, stands a good chance of being captured or killed by British special forces or the native assistants, operating close to the frontline.
RR.
Nice summary of Singapore's frailties regarding air attackThe biggest threat to Singapore is night raids, which given how poor the night fighter provision is at present, will be hard to defend against. Yes the various improvements to civil defence and anti aircraft provisions, will to some extent reduce the affect of these raids. But Singapore is not a European city, and has the problem of a comparatively high water table, so can not build extensive underground shelters. It also has a number of extensive shanties, poorly constructed mostly of wood, that if subjected to an incendiary attack will tend to burn uncontrollably, despite the best that the civil defence organisation can do. It should be noted that the plan IOTL was to construct huts away from the city, and move the civilian population away from the major areas of potential danger.
RR.
Hi El Pip, I agree with you, but I would point out, at this stage of WW2, no one was doing any better. Both the Luftwaffe and the RAF were also having problems with navigation at night, and I would put the Japanese aircrews at this time in the war up there with the best. Given the instruments they all had, having to take the wind into consideration, along with their own aircrafts performance, finding the city on a clear night was about all they could expect. To improve on this, there was the technical war of using radio signals going on in Europe, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams#Y-Gerät, but I don't know if the Japanese ever did this. What I do know is their radio industry, and research was way behind Germany and the Western Allies.From limited reading Japanese Navy bombers had trained on dusk torpedo attacks, trying to come in from the dark side with the target silhouetted against the setting sun. They carried out quite a few during the war and they were succesfull until the USN could get it's own night-fighters operational. I've not see the dive or level bombers having any specific night tactics.
The Japanese army seems to have limited it's night bombing efforts over China to moon-lit nights, but then it (generally) had such aerial superiority that daylight bombing was viable almost everywhere. Hence they don't appear to have put any real effort into developing accuracy at night as it wasn't required.
There are reports of a lot of 'nuisance' night bombing during the Pacific War, small groups or even single bombers sent out just to harass the enemy, stop them sleeping and keep them on edge. But all you need for those tactics is to be somewhere near the enemy not precise targetting.
Overall I think night level bombing was not something any Japanese air arm had in their doctrine. Consequently I suspect their navigation and accuracy would be quite poor initially as the crews wouldn't have trained for it and the aircraft would lack any night navigational or bombing aids.
Dear boy, I won’t say anything if you don’t, however just between you and me, the major problem as I see it is. The old drunk in charge of the British Admiralty at the start of the war, along with the majority of the fossilised Sea Lords, had a fixation with big guns. I believe that they wanted to build a battleship with 20 inch guns, not that they had any, but what the hell, they were sure that they could build them. They wasted much time, effort and money on constantly trying to build a battleship with bigger guns and more armour, instead of building bigger and better aircraft carriers. I am off the opinion that once they were released from the constraints of the various inter war naval treaties, the major effort should have gone into designing a 45, 000 tons plus aircraft carrier. Imagine the position Britain would have been if by the end of the war, she had had 6 Malta class carriers. As for the big guns, if instead of developing the 14 inch, a fixation of Vickers, they had instead developed the 15 inch 50. Which would have reduced the supply problems, enable the Queen Elizabeth’s to be refitted with better guns, and would have made the KG5’S if fitted with the same in three three gun turrets, not only better but cheaper to produce.Hi Ramp Rat, just between you and me, I have been informed by the Admiralty that following the false alert of the German heavy cruiser, Admiral Scheer breaking out into the North Atlantic on another German raid on our convoys, HMS Prince of Wales is currently conducting exercises out of Scapa Flow, with the intention of deploying to Gibraltar later in the month, for service in Mediterranean waters, but keep it under your hat old chap, careless talk and all that you know.
I think you are failing to distinguish degrees of bad here. The RAF and Luftwaffe at least were training crews in night flying and had some equipment for it, yet were struggling to get anywhere near the target.Hi El Pip, I agree with you, but I would point out, at this stage of WW2, no one was doing any better.
Hi Ramp Rat, that would have required a major increase in production of the Fairey Swordfish, Blackburn Skua and Roc'sImagine the position Britain would have been if by the end of the war, she had had 6 Malta class carriers.
RR😉
Hi El Pip, I think we need to break this down a bit.I think you are failing to distinguish degrees of bad here. The RAF and Luftwaffe at least were training crews in night flying and had some equipment for it, yet were struggling to get anywhere near the target.
The Japanese air arms did not even have that, why would they when their doctrine didn't call for it, so are starting from a weaker positoin. Just because everyone else is doing badly doesn't mean the Japanese can't do even worse.
Then anyone. The British demonstrated they were better than the Italians, who had no real training at night fighting. The Japanese had the best night optical devices made in WWII and had the most intensive crew training of any navy in night operations. They hadn't yet demonstrated such skills because China didn't have a major navy. The IJN's war games were said to be more intense than actually combat. In the night actions in the Solomon Islands Japanese optics, training, torpedoes, and tactics proved superior to those of the Allies, including the Australians, and New Zealanders. It was only as the Allies became more adept with radar, and with improved tactics that the odds changed. Even then victory usually depended on who sighted the other side first. Even with the radar advantage victory in a night battle against the Japanese was never assured.
True, the RN had that first, but that's really not what we're talking about. The RN night torpedo bomber attack capability against ships at sea was possible because of radar. USN radar equipped TBF Avengers could do the same thing, and even the Japanese had some limited capability late in the war. From late 1942 USN PBY Catalina flying boats in what were called Blackcat squadrons would launch radar assisted torpedo attacks. Without radar it was very hard to find, or attack ships at night. What Japanese aircraft were trained to do was spot the wakes of ships at night and drop flairs behind them so surface ships could target them. They had a good deal of success in doing that.
Very good sir. But don't forget that the RN made a night attack on the Italian Navy in Torrento in November 1940. With just 21 Swordfish they managed to torpedo 3 battleships.Hi El Pip, I think we need to break this down a bit.
The Japanese Army Air Force, has, I believe, no night attack capability, and doesn't train to conduct one. the best they might achieve is single flight nuisance attacks on clear moonlight nights.
The Japanese Navy Air Force is a different matter. A major part of the Japanese Navy doctrine called for night fighting, it was something they invested in with exceptionally good optics, and worked hard on developing tactics. Belisarius II post 1,500, gave us
Now the Japanese carrier aircraft didn't undertake night flying as far as I know, but the twin engine G3M Nell and G4M Betty formations did.
Belisarius II post 1,505 gave us (I've put the relevant bit in bold type)
On the opening of hostilities, December 8th (its still the 7th for Pearl Harbour, on the other side of the dateline) Nell bombers of the Mihoro air group attacked Singapore at night, successfully locating the city, and causing heavy casualties and damage, although the Naval Base was untouched.
The night of December 9/10, while searching for Force Z, a formation of Nell's and Betty's nearly attacked the IJN heavy cruiser Chokai.
A Japanese reconnaissance aircraft searching for Force Z mistakes CHOKAI for one of the British ships and makes a sighting report. Fifty-three bombers arrive soon and begin positioning for attack. The reconnaissance plane drops a flare to illuminate the target. At the last moment, the ship is recognized as friendly and the attack is broken off. Aboard the flagship, Ozawa signals CHOKAI's identity to Saigon. All aircraft are recalled and the search is postponed until daylight.
Taken from http://www.combinedfleet.com/chokai_t.htm
So they were capable, but limited, lacking the technical equipment the Europeans were developing.
Now, while we are dealing with night flying, what about the British in my timeline. OK, we have two recently formed FAA Swordfish Torpedo sqns practicing night flying off carriers, and undertaking a night attack on Singapore exercise. We also have two squadrons of Vickers Vildebeest which had trained for torpedo strikes on shipping at night. Note, neither of these enjoy radar guidance, and so are doing something similar to the Japanese Nell and Betty formations, with air dropped flares illuminating their targets.
And lastly, RAF 27 Sqn, with only four Blenheim IF aircraft equipped with a underslung gun pack and airborne radar, are conducting night-time interception exercises, with little success. The RAF Blenheim, Battles and Hudson crews have no training in night-time operations, so unlike Europe, the RAF cannot conduct any nigh time bombing operations. Does that sound about right guys?
Hi Belisarius II, re Taranto, see my post # 145Very good sir. But don't forget that the RN made a night attack on the Italian Navy in Torrento in November 1940. With just 21 Swordfish they managed to torpedo 3 battleships.
Good analysis. The best thing to do is base the B-17's in the southern Philippines. Another point is the Americans didn't think Japanese fighters could attack Clark Field from their air bases in Formosa. Allied intelligence was completely wrong footed about Japanese air capabilities. No one knew the amazing combat radius of the A6M Zero, or Ki-43 Oscar. When Clark Field was attacked the Americans figured the planes must have come from carriers.Unfortunately the Americans are putting the cart before the horse, where they should have built up the fighter force along with the air defence network first. They have placed long range heavy bombers, that represent a serious threat to the Japanese, in the Philippines. Without them being defended against a Japanese attack, in any significant way, nor have they reached agreement with the British/Dutch to enable them to deploy their aircraft in their territories. And it should be noted that any such agreement would require the Americans to make significant provisions for the aircraft, including spares, munitions, ground crews, and communications. For example let’s do a thought experiment, General Z finding the position of the B-17’s in the Philippines has become untenable, and orders them to redeploy to Singapore. First do they have the maps and charts to enable them to make the flight, along with the radio/wireless frequencies to be able to communicate with the British, and receive landing instructions. Once on the ground in Singapore, were are the spares and mechanics to service these aircraft, I seriously doubt that you can put British spark plugs into an American engine, or British oil filters, let alone British tyres onto American aircraft. Unless there is a significant dump of American munitions, fat chance of using British 303 to fill up the ammunition trays in a B-17. And there is a serious difference between the various bomb tackles, on American and British bombs. While you might be able to strip spares from the least airworthy aircraft to make the remainder airworthy, what do you do with them then. Sadly what appears to be a significant boost to the American defence of the Philippines, is very much a total waste of resources, and once the Japanese attack will be virtually useless, and have little to no effect on the eventual outcome of any conflict in the Philippines.
RR.