Not quite
After sunset attack at Battle of Cape Matapan, on a serious Italian fleet, which disabled an Italian cruiser.
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
I agree with you Belisarius II, however there are a couple of caveats. The IJN invested a lot of money and time in developing best night optical devices for their surface ships, as this was a fundamental part of the Kantai Kessen, for cruiser and destroyer attacks on the enemy's (expected to be the USN) main battle fleet at night. See below, section - Japanese Planning, last paragraph. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantai_Kessen
Their carrier based aircraft, as far as I'm aware, were not trained or capable of any night attack, but their land based G3M Nell and G4M Betty units were, an example of that was on 9th Dec 1941, when searching for Force Z at night they illuminated the IJN heavy cruiser Chokai by mistake, fortunately calling off the attack, after a series of frantic messages.
The British surface fleet was most certainly happy to fight at night, but a couple of things here, firstly, in the Mediterranean against the Italians, they enjoyed very good intelligence of Italian plans, and secondly, even though it was in its infancy, radar. Examples I offer are Matapan, and the cruisers shadowing Bismarck. The difference between those operations and Savo Island was the absence of any land mass to clutter their readings. So I would suggest fighting the IJN close to islands, eg Guadacanal, or around the Dutch East Indies, the IJN would have an advantage at night, but on open seas with no land mass present, the Royal Navy, if equipped with radar, would have an enormous advantage.
Regarding both British land based and carrier based aircraft, they did use these for night operations, I have read of pre Dec 41 air exercises by the Vildebeest torpedo bombers of RAF 36 and 100 practicing attacks at night, and we know the Fleet Air Arm used its Albacore and Swordfish aircraft at night too. It took a lot of training, the carriers had a system for night take off and landing, and this was all pre airborne radar. Re the MTBs I'll deal with that in another post.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Aber, thank you for this, a nice little page.
The 2nd MTB Flotilla was made up from six 60ft boats built by Scott Paine, numbers 7 to 12, with two extra boats, 27 and 28 added, which were 55ft Thorneycroft boats, built for the Chinese Navy but bought back. The Scott Paine's did something between 33-38 knots, I have conflicting info here, and had a crew of 9, I believe, although that might have been increased, the Thorneycroft's did 40 knots, and a much smaller crew, of as little as 5, I believe.
The two Thorneycroft boats could launch their torpedoes while under way, but the Scott Paine's, like the CMB's of WW1, had to stop, flood part of the engine compartment, allowing the internally stored torpedoes to slide out tail first, along an extended gantry. The torpedoes, once in the water, would start their internal motors pushing forwards, so as soon as the torpedoes were launch, they had to gun the motors and quickly swing wide, allowing the torpedoes to run past!
There is a fantastic site here http://www.hongkongescape.org/Index_hk.htm
MWI 41072604 Regulus On Watch
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Saturday 26 July;
He stood looking at his watch, 03.50 hours, nearly the end of the middle watch, time to call up the new lookouts, to give them time to adjust their eyes, before the old watch went below. Lt Cmdr Frederick Currie, commanding officer of HMS Regulus knew it was critical they had their eyes in, so to speak, the tension was almost palatable. Cruising at 15 knots on the surface, was bound to provide some white water, but with a new moon there was little natural light to reflect off it. Somewhere off starboard was the Japanese convoy, at least 25 plus ships along with several warships.
They had been watching the port of Samah for a over a week now, specifically on orders, and were to provide nightly updates. It was their first time off Samah, having rotated out from Singapore last month up to Hong Kong, but it was a regular patrol for the Navy, one of the two they did out of Hong Kong, the other was up to Formosa.
Over the last several days what they had reported was eight cargo ships, independently sailing in, but they had been kept at a distance from the port by the constant patrolling of a couple of destroyers. Then early yesterday morning, judging by the smoke on the horizon, something was up. Mid-morning revealed a surprise, as first a division of four heavy cruisers, the Mogami class, left harbour, sailing south, followed about an hour later by two aircraft carriers, they looked like the Soryu class, looking at his book, with attached escorts.
At periscope depth, and in broad daylight, there was little he could do, but listen as they passed. And then mid-afternoon, a steady stream of troop transports and cargo ships, with a heavy cruiser and at least three destroyers started to leave port, and slowly began to form up in convoy fashion. The whole thing had been a bit hairy, what with a number of aircraft in the air, and the sudden panic of a destroyer which got a bit close, thankfully the hydrophones picked her up before she’d seen their periscope, and they’d had to crash dive, and stay down for about an hour before he’d found sufficient nerve to order her up again.
And then with darkness falling, she’d surfaced, allowing them to recharge their batteries, refresh their air, and most importantly, hopefully cruise on by the convoy, in the hope they could get in front of them for another look at daybreak. This all supposed they didn’t bump into the heavy cruisers or aircraft carriers in the dark, hence the tension.
He gave himself a small grimace as the thought of what the reactions to the details of his radio communication must have created. He’d bet a pound to a penny, right now another sub, his guess would be HMS Rainbow with his friend Lt Cmdr Lewis Moore commanding her, would be cruising off Saigon, in anticipation of what was coming. But where were these ships going to, was this it, war with Japan?
He stood looking at his watch, 03.50 hours, nearly the end of the middle watch, time to call up the new lookouts, to give them time to adjust their eyes, before the old watch went below. Lt Cmdr Frederick Currie, commanding officer of HMS Regulus knew it was critical they had their eyes in, so to speak, the tension was almost palatable. Cruising at 15 knots on the surface, was bound to provide some white water, but with a new moon there was little natural light to reflect off it. Somewhere off starboard was the Japanese convoy, at least 25 plus ships along with several warships.
They had been watching the port of Samah for a over a week now, specifically on orders, and were to provide nightly updates. It was their first time off Samah, having rotated out from Singapore last month up to Hong Kong, but it was a regular patrol for the Navy, one of the two they did out of Hong Kong, the other was up to Formosa.
Over the last several days what they had reported was eight cargo ships, independently sailing in, but they had been kept at a distance from the port by the constant patrolling of a couple of destroyers. Then early yesterday morning, judging by the smoke on the horizon, something was up. Mid-morning revealed a surprise, as first a division of four heavy cruisers, the Mogami class, left harbour, sailing south, followed about an hour later by two aircraft carriers, they looked like the Soryu class, looking at his book, with attached escorts.
At periscope depth, and in broad daylight, there was little he could do, but listen as they passed. And then mid-afternoon, a steady stream of troop transports and cargo ships, with a heavy cruiser and at least three destroyers started to leave port, and slowly began to form up in convoy fashion. The whole thing had been a bit hairy, what with a number of aircraft in the air, and the sudden panic of a destroyer which got a bit close, thankfully the hydrophones picked her up before she’d seen their periscope, and they’d had to crash dive, and stay down for about an hour before he’d found sufficient nerve to order her up again.
And then with darkness falling, she’d surfaced, allowing them to recharge their batteries, refresh their air, and most importantly, hopefully cruise on by the convoy, in the hope they could get in front of them for another look at daybreak. This all supposed they didn’t bump into the heavy cruisers or aircraft carriers in the dark, hence the tension.
He gave himself a small grimace as the thought of what the reactions to the details of his radio communication must have created. He’d bet a pound to a penny, right now another sub, his guess would be HMS Rainbow with his friend Lt Cmdr Lewis Moore commanding her, would be cruising off Saigon, in anticipation of what was coming. But where were these ships going to, was this it, war with Japan?
My understanding is that Scott Paine (who championed the use of MTBs on both sides of the pond - and was a times the fastest man in the air and on the sea) designs utilised a system where the torpedoes sort of 'fell out the back' on a rail like system while the boat was under way - it did not as far as I am aware have to stop etc but the launching vessel would I imagine want to 'get out of the way' pretty sharpish
Here is a short vid I found with a launching of a fish near the end
How many variants of the MTB where designed and built. Given that the boats transferred from Hong Kong had pretty low numbers and where built pre war, they mjght have had an older inferior design setup to later built boats. That or your info may have been an upgrade or modification that could have been done during a refit, whether or not the Hong Kong based boats would have got it isn't known.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Cryhavoc101, I think you're right, my info was taken from the web site http://www.hongkongescape.org/Index_hk.htm, the 2nd MTB Flotilla, but when I went back to check, that link isn't working. Furthermore, checking my notes, I found a note that suggested that the boat had to slow, point its bows at the target, unfold the rail, open the stern doors, and then by accelerating away, the torpedo slid out, motor started and the boat quickly maneuverer out the way. Thank you for your diligence (again
)Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Viper91, MTBs 07-12 built 1937-38, MTBs 26-27 built September 1938
Scott Paine, after badly falling out with the Admiralty, left in 1940 for the USA, and got a job with Electric Boat Company (Elco)
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I thought those where newer boats in the video. The only part with numbering, it has 100 on the bow of the boat, unless one or more of those white circles aren't zeros, so I assumed with the number 100 it was a newer build then the boats from Hong Kong.
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
As this clip popped up recently elsewhere, a Vildebeest is both fairly large, and surprising manoeuvrable (when unladen).
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That was an RAF high speed rescue launch (Which TE Lawrence before his untimely death - helped champion after seeing - from the land - the crew of an RAF plane that had landed in the sea drown while a slow launch went to pick them up)
The MTB not numbered is near the end of the video showing the launch method
We are now in March 1941, it is getting near the time beyond which it will be very difficult to get a first rate commander to fine tune the defense plans at Singapore and pull together all the separate threads. The Brits are building up forces and supplies but without the right leader this won't be enough. In my opinion, Harold Alexander is by far the best man for the job. After Dunkirk, he played varying command roles in preparation for possible German invasion. Once the invasion threat was over he was put to work on preparing possible invasions of the Canaries and the Azores (never carried out) and a scheme to invade Sicily for which the British lacked the resources yet. He was only sent to India and Burma after the Japanese attacked. If you want to make a successful defense of Singapore completely credible, give the job to Alexander and get him out there by sometime in April 1941. Churchill had personal confidence in Alexander and would be inclined to listen to him on stepping up preparations significantly beyond what in TTL had already been done.
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@Alien and Sedition Bat The latest chapter is dated July 26, 1941. Too late for Field Marshal Alexander to exert a positive influence? In this ATL the POD is that Singapore and Malaya have received a more able Governor. And then there are the further changes that have followed. But the British and Commonwealth forces are still inadequate to defeat the invasion, I believe. The most brilliant commander may not be able to change that by this point.
If FM Alexander had been sent to Singapore in late 1940 and then his subsequent demands and requests for the clearly needed reinforcements had been listened to by Churchill then maybe Singapore, Malaya and Burma might be held. But that is a very different storyline from this one.
If FM Alexander had been sent to Singapore in late 1940 and then his subsequent demands and requests for the clearly needed reinforcements had been listened to by Churchill then maybe Singapore, Malaya and Burma might be held. But that is a very different storyline from this one.
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Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Alien and Sedition Bat, have a read of posts 67 and 68, I've detailed my reasoning on why Gort is in charge, replacing the historical choice of Brooke-Popham. Or was you suggesting Alexander replace Percival?
Yes, that he replace the historical OTL role of Percival. This may be different from the role you have assigned Percival in TTL. Sorry I didn't refresh myself on earlier postings before making my recent comments.
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You are right. The appointment would be too late as of July 26 (with actual arrival weeks later) for any changes that could create a British victory at Singapore; my mistake. But the most powerful argument. as put forth by Cryhavoc101 in this scenario a year ago, was that Churchill would not appoint a key senior commander whom he valued highly to a post in a still quiescent part of the world given all the needs in Europe and the Med. So Churchill's positive view of Alexander would have definitely left the latter out of the running for Singapore. I should note that Alex's job in early 1941 to prepare for invasions of Spain's Canary islands and Portugal's Azores was not make-work; there was still real concern either that Spain would join the Axis (which would probably mean also a takeover of Portugal) or that the Germans would simply roll through to take Gibraltar. Even In Operation Torch (Nov. 1942) some U.S. military leaders wanted to only invade on the Atlantic side and not go into the Med. because of what Spain and the Axis Powers might do. Fortunately, Ike sided with the British to go into the Med anyway.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Alien and Sedition Bat:, oops nearly forgot your colon, must put that in there, I think you're an Aficionado of Harold Rupert Leofric George Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Tunis, I noticed you've push for his promotion a couple of times in this TL, which is a big of a shame really because he's actually in danger of not being mentioned in the text at all!
Unless someone can come up with a very good reason for such a talent to be sent to this backwater.
MWI 41072713 MacArthur Returns
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Sunday 27 July;
The big black sedan turned into the drive of The Mansion, in Baguio, and drove along at a stately 15 mph, a red card with the four white stars, displayed inside the windscreen on the left, foretold of a full General inside. The car, a 1937 Cadillac Cabriolet, custom finished, had been built for Manuel Quezon, President of the Philippines, who, a year later, had given it to the individual seated in the rear. A camera crew filmed the arrival, the event heavily staged managed, and as the car pulled to a stop, a young Lieutenant, Dominador Mascardo, son of General Tomas Mascardo who had been President Quezon's commanding officer in Bataan, during the Philippine – American war of 1899-1902, smartly stepped forward to open the rear door, allowing the passenger to step out.
Resplendent in a white dress uniform, wearing the Field Marshals cap of the Philippine Army, Douglas MacArthur steps out, and crosses the tarmac over to the manicured lawn where President Manuel Quezon, President of the Philippines stands, beside a big antique cannon of a bygone age, waiting to greet him. MacArthur has come to visit him in his summer retreat, with the news that as of yesterday he has been recalled to active service by Roosevelt, who’d then promoted him to Lieutenant General. He will command the United States Army Forces in the Far East (USAFFE), absorbing the Philippine Army into the US Army. The move is one of a number by Roosevelt, in response to Japan’s move into southern Indo-China.
With the creation of the Commonwealth of the Philippines in 1935, attempts had been made to create an army capable of defending the country. Quezon had requested that MacArthur evolve a national defence, and oversee the growth of the army, and on stepping down as Chief of Staff of the US Army in the October, he was made a Field Marshal of the Philippines Army. However, the army’s development was slow, restricted in part by funds, while US Army assistance was somewhat limited. New camps had to be built, a Military Academy created, organisation of cadres to build units on, and special training given to would be instructors, which all took time.
What was present in July 1941 was the Philippine Division, with the single, somewhat surprisingly over manned US 31st Infantry Regt, and two infantry regt’s of Philippine Scouts, the 45th and 57th. A third Philippine infantry regt, the 43rd, was only at cadre strength. With them was the 26th Cavalry Regt of Philippine Scouts, still horse mounted, the 23rd Field Arty Regt, a battalion size unit armed with 2.95-inch mountain guns, and carried by pack mule, and the 24th Field Arty Regt, two battalion size units, equipped with truck pulled 75mm M1917 guns. These units didn’t normally operate as a whole, with units scattered across Luzon. Backing that up was the Philippine Constabulary Division, a military police force, that formed up with three infantry regts in time of war, and ten reserve divisions, that were badly lacking in training, equipment, artillery, you name it. The force urgently needed modernising and strengthening.
In the air it wasn’t any better, the US had stationed the 4th Composite Group, made up of the 3rd Pursuit Squadron, recently re-equipped with Seversky P-35A’s replacing Boeing P-26 Peashooters fighters, the 20th Pursuit Squadron, which had upgraded to the up to date Curtiss P40B Warhawk, again from the P-26, and the 28th Bombardment Squadron, which had also recently upgraded from the Martin B-10, to the Douglas B-18 Bolos bomber. A couple of Philippine squadrons were forming, using the handed down P-26 and B-10 aircraft. In tandem, the US Navy fielded Patrol Wing 10, equipped with the superb Consolidated PBY Catalina flying boats.
The US Navy stood independent of the Army’s forces, its Asiatic Fleet commanded by Thomas C Hart, a full admiral, no less, although his, and his force titles disguised the fact that the Naval forces in the Philippines were neither modern or plentiful. His flagship, USS Houston, was a Northampton-class heavy cruiser of the United States Navy, armed with eight inch guns but lightly armoured. With her was one light cruiser, USS Marblehead, and thirteen Clemson class destroyers, all of late WW1 design. His submarine force was seventeen strong, although six of them were again of WW1 vintage.
Finally, it might be said, American alarm bells were ringing, it was clear the defence of the Philippines was in need of urgent help, and the appointment of MacArthur was just the start of it, but with the need to provide adequate defences to Alaska, Panama and Hawaii, all of which had priority over the Philippines, it remained to be seen what could be done, and how quickly.
The big black sedan turned into the drive of The Mansion, in Baguio, and drove along at a stately 15 mph, a red card with the four white stars, displayed inside the windscreen on the left, foretold of a full General inside. The car, a 1937 Cadillac Cabriolet, custom finished, had been built for Manuel Quezon, President of the Philippines, who, a year later, had given it to the individual seated in the rear. A camera crew filmed the arrival, the event heavily staged managed, and as the car pulled to a stop, a young Lieutenant, Dominador Mascardo, son of General Tomas Mascardo who had been President Quezon's commanding officer in Bataan, during the Philippine – American war of 1899-1902, smartly stepped forward to open the rear door, allowing the passenger to step out.
Resplendent in a white dress uniform, wearing the Field Marshals cap of the Philippine Army, Douglas MacArthur steps out, and crosses the tarmac over to the manicured lawn where President Manuel Quezon, President of the Philippines stands, beside a big antique cannon of a bygone age, waiting to greet him. MacArthur has come to visit him in his summer retreat, with the news that as of yesterday he has been recalled to active service by Roosevelt, who’d then promoted him to Lieutenant General. He will command the United States Army Forces in the Far East (USAFFE), absorbing the Philippine Army into the US Army. The move is one of a number by Roosevelt, in response to Japan’s move into southern Indo-China.
With the creation of the Commonwealth of the Philippines in 1935, attempts had been made to create an army capable of defending the country. Quezon had requested that MacArthur evolve a national defence, and oversee the growth of the army, and on stepping down as Chief of Staff of the US Army in the October, he was made a Field Marshal of the Philippines Army. However, the army’s development was slow, restricted in part by funds, while US Army assistance was somewhat limited. New camps had to be built, a Military Academy created, organisation of cadres to build units on, and special training given to would be instructors, which all took time.
What was present in July 1941 was the Philippine Division, with the single, somewhat surprisingly over manned US 31st Infantry Regt, and two infantry regt’s of Philippine Scouts, the 45th and 57th. A third Philippine infantry regt, the 43rd, was only at cadre strength. With them was the 26th Cavalry Regt of Philippine Scouts, still horse mounted, the 23rd Field Arty Regt, a battalion size unit armed with 2.95-inch mountain guns, and carried by pack mule, and the 24th Field Arty Regt, two battalion size units, equipped with truck pulled 75mm M1917 guns. These units didn’t normally operate as a whole, with units scattered across Luzon. Backing that up was the Philippine Constabulary Division, a military police force, that formed up with three infantry regts in time of war, and ten reserve divisions, that were badly lacking in training, equipment, artillery, you name it. The force urgently needed modernising and strengthening.
In the air it wasn’t any better, the US had stationed the 4th Composite Group, made up of the 3rd Pursuit Squadron, recently re-equipped with Seversky P-35A’s replacing Boeing P-26 Peashooters fighters, the 20th Pursuit Squadron, which had upgraded to the up to date Curtiss P40B Warhawk, again from the P-26, and the 28th Bombardment Squadron, which had also recently upgraded from the Martin B-10, to the Douglas B-18 Bolos bomber. A couple of Philippine squadrons were forming, using the handed down P-26 and B-10 aircraft. In tandem, the US Navy fielded Patrol Wing 10, equipped with the superb Consolidated PBY Catalina flying boats.
The US Navy stood independent of the Army’s forces, its Asiatic Fleet commanded by Thomas C Hart, a full admiral, no less, although his, and his force titles disguised the fact that the Naval forces in the Philippines were neither modern or plentiful. His flagship, USS Houston, was a Northampton-class heavy cruiser of the United States Navy, armed with eight inch guns but lightly armoured. With her was one light cruiser, USS Marblehead, and thirteen Clemson class destroyers, all of late WW1 design. His submarine force was seventeen strong, although six of them were again of WW1 vintage.
Finally, it might be said, American alarm bells were ringing, it was clear the defence of the Philippines was in need of urgent help, and the appointment of MacArthur was just the start of it, but with the need to provide adequate defences to Alaska, Panama and Hawaii, all of which had priority over the Philippines, it remained to be seen what could be done, and how quickly.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Ok, Ok, now Butchpfd, and all you other Philippine addicts, please be gentle with me on this, the Philippines campaign is not my field of expertise, indeed I spent far too much time on locating the venue for MacArthur's meeting with Quezon, and finally concluded that it was at the Mansion, because I felt sure they met at Quezon's summer retreat. The notes on the video were unhelpful, but have a look and tell me what you think, the clip starts at 1.14