Read this below:


This source can help out Singapore
Something else that can help advance the AVG by 6 months, 1st group would be combat ready at either Rangoon or Singapore, 2nd Group,(the bombers, Venturas and B-20s) and 3rd Group, Fighters would be working up at Singapore.
 
Regarding the AVG working up at Singapore. Possibly the new British command would mean a more amenable response to such proposals.

While these ATL improvements in Malaya take place through the end of 1940 and through 1941 what would the Japanese reaction to the changes be? The Japanese had good intelligence about their objectives. Would they launch the same attacks with the same forces as OTL or would there be adjustments made to the plan due to a reappraisal of British and American capabilities?
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
OK lets address the AVG, or American Volunteer Group. They were formed in April 1941, following an executive order by Roosevelt, allowing enlisted men of the US armed forces to resign, and then join the AVG. Now you have to look at the purpose of why he did this.

Roosevelt wanted to help Nationalist China in opposing Japanese aggression, but he couldn't have the USA directly involved, so he used a clandestine way, with the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company (CAMCO) as a front. Orders were placed for 100 Curtiss-Wright P40 fighters, but delivery was going to be a long time, longer than Roosevelt wanted to wait, so he did a deal with the British for them to give up aircraft they had ordered prior to the CAMCO order, taking more advanced aircraft later.

This is where a POD could occur, with the British saying no, but I don't want to make any changes to Roosevelt or US historical direction, satisfied that in relations with the US, Britain will remain a grateful friend, or as part of a Churchill remark, the British are still wooing the Americans.

There's a great website about the AVG here
 
MWI 40111108 The Troop Build-Up Begins

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1940, Monday 11 November;

As the convoy sailed in from Bombay, so the Singapore Naval Base took control. With only two berths available some ships would have to anchor out in the straits and wait a day or two. And there was a lot of troops to disembark. The three Indian battalions of the 8th Indian Bde, plus its HQ and associated units, the 19th Field Eng Coy, the 5th Aux Bn of the Indian Pioneer Corps (a non-combatant unit of 4 labour companies) and lastly but not least, the 2nd Bn Royal Berkshire Regt. Just like they had done in Egypt, so British battalions were being incorporated into Indian Bdes where possible. The Berkshires would join the 8th Bde, shedding an Indian battalion, which would join Malaya Command un-brigaded.

The 2/10 Baluch were first off, young soldiers heavy with rifles and kitbags staggering down the gangways, being formed up into platoons and then marched to the transport park by a few grizzled professional NCOs, where trucks were waiting to ferry them to temporary accommodation under tents. The second ship began unloading the many stores, supplies and MT vehicles she carried, cranes swaying the cargo up out of her holds onto the dockside where an assortment of wagons, flatbeds, trolleys and labourers ready to manhandle, waited.

Next off were the Berkshires, who were quickly squeezed into the Alexandria Barracks, and then the 3/17 Dogra’s, who were housed in a temporary camp, again under canvas. Lastly came the 2/18 Royal Garhwal Rifles, who having spent the night onboard their troopship, disembarked the next morning, straight onto a train which began the journey north to Kuala Lumpur. The Bde HQ and its associated smaller units were also accommodated in Singapore for now, but also would soon be moving north into Malaya.

With the formation of the 11th Indian HQ in early October to command them, so an initial deployment of two Indian Bde’s, the 6th, which arrived in October, to the North West and the 8th to the North East in Northern Malaya would be complete. This left some Battalions un-brigaded, but they were deployed as garrison troops for now. The 5th Aux Indian Pioneers were being sent to Kuala Lumpur. This wasn’t nearly enough troops to defend Malaya, but it was a start to the troop build-up that had been promised.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
OK, a slight change here, the sharp eyed (or probably Malayan Campaign knowledgeable) will have noticed the arrival of the 5th Indian Auxiliary Pioneers, and the 2nd Bn Royal Berkshire Regt, neither happened historically. I don't think the Pioneers is much of a change, but taking British battalions from the Garrison in India, could potentially cause problems with Indian internal security.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
This video was a great lecture on the situation


The Buffalo was certainly porcine but there are multiple reasons beyond its performance why it failed to stop the IJA Airforce in Malaya given that the main enemy fighter was the KI 27
The link you provided doesn't work, could you have another go for me please.
So the video link works fine if I use a smart phone to view the site, which tells me you're one of those clever 'IT savvy' guys, and I'm one of those old dinosaurs who thought he was doing well, moving from desktop to laptop. Ha, MI6 missed a trick not recruiting me back in the day!
 

Mark1878

Donor
So the video link works fine if I use a smart phone to view the site, which tells me you're one of those clever 'IT savvy' guys, and I'm one of those old dinosaurs who thought he was doing well, moving from desktop to laptop. Ha, MI6 missed a trick not recruiting me back in the day!
Not so here.
It works on my desktop computer.

I suspect you have some ad blocking or similar software - the smart phone versions of such like are less aggressive/ I recently had to lessen the amount I block to see twitter links in line in this forum.
 
So the video link works fine if I use a smart phone to view the site, which tells me you're one of those clever 'IT savvy' guys, and I'm one of those old dinosaurs who thought he was doing well, moving from desktop to laptop. Ha, MI6 missed a trick not recruiting me back in the day!
Not so sure about clever IT Savvy type but I am typing this on a desktop gaming PC using the latest windows and crome?

You could try opening you tube and manually searching for the video

In Defense Of The Worst Plane of WW2 - Brewster Buffalo​

Or using the URL https ://youtu.be/dOLIVGvv6yY (remove the space after the https)


But the main point was that it was not so much that the Brewster aircraft was bad (it wasn't great) but the way in which it was used, the poor organisation of the air defences and airfields of Malaya, the small numbers used (with a distinct lack of reserves) in the face of the IJA airforce who brought experience, good organisation and perhaps most importantly numbers!

As the chap says late in the video the British had presented a fancy window dressing trying to bluff the Japanese that they were strong in Malaya when in fact they were not.
 
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Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Not so here.
It works on my desktop computer.

I suspect you have some ad blocking or similar software - the smart phone versions of such like are less aggressive/ I recently had to lessen the amount I block to see twitter links in line in this forum.
Yeah, OK, MI6 got it right, I ain't to hot on the IT!
 
A good choice for an effective fighter plane for Malaya would be the Curtiss P-36. This was a plane that the RAF concluded was almost but not quite good enough to face the Luftwaffe's Me. 109s in late 1940 going into 1941. After all, the RAF had Spitfires for that. So if the British aren't going to use them at home or North Africa then why not ship them to Singapore?

In OTL after the Fall of France the British inherited about 200 Curtiss Hawk 75s originally ordered by the French. The Hawk 75 was a further development of the P-36 with a 1200 HP engine. In OTL the British used some of these planes in India. I don't know where all of them were sent. These weren't bad planes and would've provided a substantial improvement over what the RAF had in OTL. If the pilots were well trained and had some idea about how to deal with the Japanese fighters. If the AVGs' Claire Chennault's experiences were heeded maybe. And if the early warning network were improved too.

What would need to happen to have the bulk if not all of the 200 or so French Curtiss Hawk 75s that were diverted to Britain being seconded to the RAF in Malaya?

1643313866762.png
 
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A good choice for an effective fighter plane for Malaya would be the Curtiss P-36. This was a plane that the RAF concluded was almost but not quite good enough to face the Luftwaffe's Me. 109s in late 1940 going into 1941. After all, the RAF had Spitfires for that. So if the British aren't going to use them at home or North Africa then why not ship them to Singapore?

In OTL after the Fall of France the British inherited about 200 Curtiss Hawk 75s originally ordered by the French. The Hawk 75 was a further development of the P-36 with a 1200 HP engine. In OTL the British used some of these planes in India. I don't know where all of them were sent. These weren't bad planes and would've provided a substantial improvement over what the RAF had in OTL. If the pilots were well trained and had some idea about how the deal with the Japanese fighters. If the AVGs' Claire Chennault's experiences were heeded maybe. And if the early warning network were improved too.

What would need to happen to have the bulk if not all of the 200 or so French Curtiss Hawk 75s that were diverted to Britain being seconded to the RAF in Malaya?

View attachment 714084
According to wikpedia the British received 229 P-36. They account for 74 sent to India and another 72 used by South African forces. I have looked before and can't find where the remaining 83 went. They might be available for Malaya.
 
According to wikpedia the British received 229 P-36. They account for 74 sent to India and another 72 used by South African forces. I have looked before and can't find where the remaining 83 went. They might be available for Malaya.

12 British Hawk 75A went to Portugal

Not sure about the rest?

Its still a very small number of aircraft for a given 'pool' but sending them to Malaya would certainly allow a couple of Squadrons to be stood up with the type.
 
MWI 40111116 SS Automedon

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1940, Monday 11 November;

Captain Bernhard Rogge of Atlantis, stood on the bridge and watched the merchantman settle down in the water after the scuttling charges blew. The superstructure of the ship displayed the effects of the close-range shelling, the bridge was a mess, indeed the whole ship had been well worked over above the waterline, but the hull had remained reasonably seaworthy. As she began to sink, so the stern rose slightly, clearly showing her name Automedon.

Automedon had left Liverpool on the 25th September 1940, in convoy SL 42, 25 merchant ships and 5 escorts, and was bound for Penang, Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai. After 4 days, close to the edge of the Western Approaches, the escorts departed, the Royal Navy so short of escorts, and a day later, just over 1,000 miles west of Liverpool, the convoy dispersed, in part because the U-boat threat wasn’t as great this far out, in part because most of the ships would reach their destinations quicker, not having to sail at the speed of the slowest, in part that the receiving ports weren’t suddenly swamped with ships to unload, making them more efficient as well, and lastly, with everything else borne in mind, each individual ship wasn’t of particularly high value, and could be risked, compared to a troop ship which was always escorted.

She was midway between Ceylon and the Nicobar Islands, heading for the Malacca Straits and Penang, making a steady 14 knots, 79 days at sea. Captain W B Ewan was at peace with the world, that was until he was called to the bridge, merchant ship in sight. It wasn’t unusual to see another ship out here, but being on a similar course left him feeling uneasy.

For Rogge, catching Automedon had been a classic interception, he had closed on the merchantman with a converging course placing himself ahead, then slowing, allowing Automedon to close, until with less than 5000 yards between them he had the ensign run up, and a warning shot fired across the bows. Almost immediately the British wireless began calling out the distress call (RRR – Automedon – 0416N) before he ordered the salvos that took away the radio mast and left the message incomplete, while killing all the officers on the bridge, including Ewan.

The boarding party had found a ship crammed with crated aircraft, motor vehicles and machinery, of value to the allied cause, but of little use for Rogge. They had taken the frozen meat, tinned food, and some cases of scotch, which the crew would appreciate. But what really please Rogge was the 15 bags of top-secret mail for Singapore and a small green bag marked "Highly Confidential" and equipped with holes to allow it to sink if it had to be thrown overboard. He would take some time perusing through that.

With his 13th victim sunk, it was time to set a westerly course back into the Indian Ocean, away from the shipping lane they were in and make the rendezvous with his recently acquired prize vessel Ole Jacob.
 
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It still amazes me that ships facing capture allowed such top secret materials to fall into enemy hands.

It very much follows the spirit of the current internet meme: "You only had one job!"
 
It still amazes me that ships facing capture allowed such top secret materials to fall into enemy hands.

It very much follows the spirit of the current internet meme: "You only had one job!"
If most of the ship's officers have been killed then it's possible no-one else even knew it existed (especially if the likes of the Yeoman went with the bridge).
 
It still amazes me that ships facing capture allowed such top secret materials to fall into enemy hands.

It very much follows the spirit of the current internet meme: "You only had one job!"
In the postwar memoir of the Atlantis's exploits by its ADC, Ulrich Mohr, written in collaboration with British naval historian A.V. Sellwood, I do not recall any incident in which secret documents were recovered from British merchant ships, and I wonder if such ships would be carrying secret documents of strategic value. (Perhaps such an incident, forgotten by me, is included; the book has no index). Be that as it may, Sea Raider Atlantis is worth reading both as war memoir and, ironically, as travel literature. Mohr's description of the ship's stay amidst the fiords of Kerguelen Island is especially good.
 
Yeup, the capture of vital documents laying out the entire layout of British Imperial defenses for Asia and the assessment of them, as well as that of the Dutch (all which was realistically gloomy), was indeed found on the Automedon. These were put on a resupply ship that went on to Kobe, Japan and the bag handed over to the German Embassy which then sent it onto Berlin (by rail through the Soviet Union) where it was finally opened and decoded. Once the contents were understood, they were turned over to the Japanese embassy in Berlin who then sent them on a return trip to Japan. Needless to say, the Japanese Naval and Army Staffs found the information VERY enlightening and it is felt to have instrumental in convincing them that, if the Americans could be knocked out, the European colonies would be easy pickings. Thus one of the most vital steps to kicking off the Pacific War.
To be fair, indeed the man responsible for throwing the bag overboard had been killed! Yet another excellent example of how reality beats fiction for sheer nutty coincidence and craziness.
Sometimes freaky shit just happens: Rogge getting his hands on that bag because he came across just the right ship in an entire ocean, then a bit of random shrapnel kills just the right guy, and one German crewmen decides to loot just the right safe in a random ship's quarters, then rather than get frustrated over the lack of loot and toss it turns it over promptly, then against all odds the bag ACTUALLY makes it all the way to Berlin then BACK to Tokyo...the contents of which is exactly what's needed to give the most aggressive faction in Japan the ammunition they needed to give the remaining doubters that final nudge over the edge?
Yeah, freaky ASB stuff. But it happened.
 
Remember that Confederate General Lee's orders where found wrapped around some cigars in an abandon Confederate camp. If the Union commander had been more aggressive, the American Civil war would have ended sooner, The number of dead and wounded would have been a lot less. Also the South would have been spared the destruction of the additional years of war.

I am sure that the readers on this website can note other things that are hard to believe,
 
Yeup, the capture of vital documents laying out the entire layout of British Imperial defenses for Asia and the assessment of them, as well as that of the Dutch (all which was realistically gloomy), was indeed found on the Automedon. These were put on a resupply ship that went on to Kobe, Japan and the bag handed over to the German Embassy which then sent it onto Berlin (by rail through the Soviet Union) where it was finally opened and decoded. Once the contents were understood, they were turned over to the Japanese embassy in Berlin who then sent them on a return trip to Japan. Needless to say, the Japanese Naval and Army Staffs found the information VERY enlightening and it is felt to have instrumental in convincing them that, if the Americans could be knocked out, the European colonies would be easy pickings. Thus one of the most vital steps to kicking off the Pacific War.
To be fair, indeed the man responsible for throwing the bag overboard had been killed! Yet another excellent example of how reality beats fiction for sheer nutty coincidence and craziness.
Sometimes freaky shit just happens: Rogge getting his hands on that bag because he came across just the right ship in an entire ocean, then a bit of random shrapnel kills just the right guy, and one German crewmen decides to loot just the right safe in a random ship's quarters, then rather than get frustrated over the lack of loot and toss it turns it over promptly, then against all odds the bag ACTUALLY makes it all the way to Berlin then BACK to Tokyo...the contents of which is exactly what's needed to give the most aggressive faction in Japan the ammunition they needed to give the remaining doubters that final nudge over the edge?
Yeah, freaky ASB stuff. But it happened.
Here's an account of the Automedon incident. https://militaryhistorynow.com/2020...f-secret-documents-changed-the-course-of-ww2/
 
Yeup, the capture of vital documents laying out the entire layout of British Imperial defenses for Asia and the assessment of them, as well as that of the Dutch (all which was realistically gloomy), was indeed found on the Automedon. These were put on a resupply ship that went on to Kobe, Japan and the bag handed over to the German Embassy which then sent it onto Berlin (by rail through the Soviet Union) where it was finally opened and decoded. Once the contents were understood, they were turned over to the Japanese embassy in Berlin who then sent them on a return trip to Japan. Needless to say, the Japanese Naval and Army Staffs found the information VERY enlightening and it is felt to have instrumental in convincing them that, if the Americans could be knocked out, the European colonies would be easy pickings. Thus one of the most vital steps to kicking off the Pacific War.
To be fair, indeed the man responsible for throwing the bag overboard had been killed! Yet another excellent example of how reality beats fiction for sheer nutty coincidence and craziness.
Sometimes freaky shit just happens: Rogge getting his hands on that bag because he came across just the right ship in an entire ocean, then a bit of random shrapnel kills just the right guy, and one German crewmen decides to loot just the right safe in a random ship's quarters, then rather than get frustrated over the lack of loot and toss it turns it over promptly, then against all odds the bag ACTUALLY makes it all the way to Berlin then BACK to Tokyo...the contents of which is exactly what's needed to give the most aggressive faction in Japan the ammunition they needed to give the remaining doubters that final nudge over the edge?
Yeah, freaky ASB stuff. But it happened.


This situation should never have happened. That dispatch bag should have gone by Air,or an Armed Merchant cruiser, if not a warship, rather then by an a merchant ship.
As soon as the warship was sighted, that bag should have gone over the side.
 
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